Looking for tonearm inspiration

He probably had a seizure. 

So did @chilli42 ever decide on a tonearm? This thread zigged and zagged in so many directions I think he may have bailed out on us.
BillWojo

Raul, it is if we can not understand you. We mean no offense. We may even be in agreement on some issues but it is hard to tell. Look into using these translation devices!

I know is prety bad but this is not the real true issue.

When your comments become unintelligible, its actually hard to tell.

@atmasphere : No I don't thing not by a second that my english is ok, I know is prety bad but this is not the real true issue.

R.

billwojo, at least you are not trying to speak Spanish:)

Yea, I couldn't follow that either. No offense Raul, My Spanish is far, far worse than your English. 

BillWojo

lol:))

Just the first paragraph.

I got the last paragraph. He is saying even if a tonearm and cartridge are set up correctly you still need a damping device.

Yeah, I couldn’t make it out either. And I can’t sort out if he’s talking about a damping device like a trough or if he means a damped arm tube (another thing altogether) or if he’s talking about the mechanical resonance window.

@rauliruegas , again, use the google translator.


Go to Google,type ’convert Spanish to English’(https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=kOdbX7HwLInbtQbhtpnYBw&q=convert+spanish+to+engli... )
Put your text in Spanish into the box; highlight the English result and paste it here.

When reading a post that you feel you need to respond to, do yourself another favor and drop the post into the Google translator, only this time using ’convert English to Spanish’. Then you can read it correctly.


As another tip, there is something called the ’Dunning Kruger Effect’. This is where a person that knows a little about something tends to think that they are a lot more expert at it than they really are. It tends to cause blind spots in a person’s perception of the world. In this case you might think you are pretty good at English; please use the Google translator.

Can anybody translate Raul's last post for me? Just the first paragraph.

I got the last paragraph. He is saying even if a tonearm and cartridge are set up correctly you still need a damping device.

OK Raul, Why do you still need a damping device in a tonearm and cartridge that are set up with a resonance frequency of 8 Hz? What exactly are you damping? What does the damping do? 
 

@atmasphere  : I not only understand what mijo said in the post I was refer to and before he posted his " black thread " fenomenal discovery for the audio world analog lovers ! ! last post.

My last post is exactly as is or if you like: you need a very well damped tonearm to match a cartridge, not enough to stays in the ideal resonant frequency range. Easy.

R.

I'm right here Raul trying to decipher what you just wrote.

Lets see if I get this right. According to you, if a system's (including the room) bass performance is not correct the entire system will sound bad and if a tonearm is not damped bass performance will be poor. So, by extension you are saying that any system that does not have a damping mechanism in it's tonearm is going to have poor overall performance.

The tonearm and cartridge when playing a record are a mass or effective mass sitting on a spring (the cantilever's suspension) which has a specific spring rate (compliance). This mass is going to want to bounce at a certain frequency depending on the size of the mass and the stiffness of the spring. The larger the mass the lower the frequency it will bounce at. The stiffer the spring the higher that frequency will become. This is the resonance frequency. If you adjust the size of the mass and the stiffness of the spring so that the resonance frequency sits in a range were there is no information the tonearm cartridge system will not be excited to vibrate. We know from measurement that there is very little energy between 8 and 12 Hz on a record. Below that you have rumble and warps. Above and you have record noise and then bass. So if you adjust the mass and spring rate so that the system's resonance frequency is between 8 and 12 Hz it will never be excited to vibrate and the resonance will be a non issue. Using damping in this situation will do absolutely nothing as there is nothing to damp. In a situation where the resonance frequency is too high or too low and may get excited damping will raise the Q of the system and limit the number of oscillations the system will make when it gets excited. This is quite useful in very heavy arms particularly tangential trackers with very high horizontal masses. In a properly matched pivoted tonearm set up damping is totally unnecessary and may even be harmful. 

OK Raul, I do not think I can explain it any better than that. If other members find that I am in error please speak up. I you agree please let Raul know because he has a tendency toward disbelief.   
 

You can match top cartridges with a tonearm only if the tonearm is well damped as better damped as better the matching with the cartridge ( any ), period.

Sorry- I cannot make sense of this comment. Raul, you might find it a good idea to use Googe translate- place what you want to say in Spanish in the translater, highlight the result in English and then drop it in here.

Dear @atmasphere : You can match top cartridges with a tonearm only if the tonearm is well damped as better damped as better the matching with the cartridge ( any ), period.

As in any good to excellent MUSIC Hall a room/system will performs the best as the bass frequency range be handled better.
I mean that as the better your room/system bass range as the better all the quality performance of the overall frequency range.

Thinks happens that as better damp in the tonearm as better the bass range quality response. No damping then the whole room/system performance will be poor for say the least. No matters the other links in the system. Bass range is dominant for high quality performance levels and silicon damping is welcomed in the V, MAX 282 or Triplanar.

Btw, @mijostyn you like to talk but you don't give yet an answer to the question. Why dead silence?

R.

Actually Raul, from the best I can make out you don't like silicon damping troughs in tonearms any more than mijostyn. He was commenting on the fact that you mistook him entirely. Apparently this comment by you regarding this topic was spot on:

I don't know what you are talking about or what mean with properly matched.

but not for the reasons you seem to have imagined when you wrote that.

@mijostyn : "  everyone understood what I meant except you. "

then every one is stupid but me, yes but me. Like it or not.

R.

Raul, I think everyone understood what I meant except you. We do however agree that Mr Ikeda's designs are lacking in inspiration.
I'm afraid you have not left your stupidity yet. It is very much still with you.
Some additional damping is required. Uberwaltz, can you please get out the grape jelly?

@bob540

07-23-2020 2:31amYou collect tonearms?  And you swap them out to play?  Just curious
Having multiple tables with a stable of arms and carts is all part of the fun. 

Dear @mijostyn :  "  If a cartridge is properly matched to the tonearm damping is not required. "

I don't know what you are talking about or what mean with properly matched. If you refered to the cartridge/tonearm frequency range resonance in between then you really don't know what you are talking about.

Do you already compared in the same system the Thownshend Excalibur tonearm against other top contemporary tonearm with matched top LOMC cartridge?

"  features a tonearm damping trough filled with silicon fluid which dampens tonearm movement at the headshell.  " 

https://audiotraveler.wordpress.com/tag/townshend/

Differences for the better are not smaller but makes a paramount differences for the best quality performance of any tonearm you listened in your audio life.

Any tonearm develops every kind of distortions during play. Distortions/resonances that comes from the cartridge it self, the tonearm bearing, the tonearm mount support, the TT, the tonearm wand it self, feedback, etc, etc. and we need that any tonearm be very well damped to avoid/put those resonances at minimum to enhance our play MUSIC experiences and be nearer to the recording.

Any don't damped resonances in the tonearm it self will degrade the precious cartridge signal.

I owned and own non-damped tonearm like the FR and tonearms as the SME V and the great MAX 282 where you have the choice to listen engaged silicon damping or not and I owned both tonearms at the same time and I listened to both arms for many time with out that silicon damping because for me the sound was more " alive " when the damping in some ways " dull " a little the listen experiences.

That happened till I understand what I was listened with out damping and what with silicon damping and what I was listening with out damping was only higher distortion levels from here came that " alive " false enjoyment.

I have to say that both arms with out damping are more or less well damped designs because the build materials used into.

With all my respect to any gentleman: it's stupid to listen a silicon damped tonearm with out damping but human beens  like to make stupid things.


Tonearm damping is a necessity like it or not, the point is not what you like or what like your friend the important issue is MUSIC. I left my stupidity to many years ago, every one learn but there are people never learn.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @billwojo : The mechanism to set up the VTF on all FR tonearm is a mysery and develops a lot of distortions to our beloved cartridge signal.

Look, with all respect Mr. Ikeda or has a very low knowledge levels as tonearm designer or just does not cares about but caRES ONLY ON BUSINES$.

In cartridges is the same but the cantilever less LOMC cartridges as the REX 9.
His more regarded by audiophiles were th the series integrated headshell 7s ( including 702. ) but you know something that design is a monolitic one where you can't change Azymuth even if you need it, you can't change the overhang even if you need it and you are married with the very old internally headshell wires and that design very well regarded by like here with poor knowledge levels.
I was one of them because I owned at least 3 models including the 702 till I learned.

People like more distortions than true MUSIC. Pity and pity that some audiophiles never learn on the critical and important audio issues.

R.

If you were going to put something like an old  V15 you might need it. Cartridges that compliant are rare now a days. Perhaps the troughs ring.
I would take them off also. I just don't like miscellaneous junk hanging from my tone arm. Frank Schroder won't even put an arm rest on his arms. He thinks they sound bad. You just rest the arm on the lift. 

If a cartridge is properly matched to the tonearm damping is not required. It is just a messy proposition.

This is the one thing about the Triplanar that I don't like. I never use the damping trough, nor have I ever seen it used by Triplanar at audio shows. I imagine someone might have a use for it; I removed the troughs on my Triplanars; its nice to imagine that it sounds better for doing so.

Right on Chakster. If a cartridge is properly matched to the tonearm damping is not required. It is just a messy proposition. The only time you really need it is with linear trackers that do not have a mechanized carriage Like the Kuzma Air line. There is no way you can match any cartridge to the high horizontal mass. If you do not want your cartridge bouncing from one side of the groove to the other damping is essential. 
Personally, you are better off with a pivoted arm. If you want a linear tracker check out the Schroder LT or the Reed 5T.

anyone running a Denon 401 ?

me, and it’s the best denon tonearm for high compliance cartridges in my opinion @tomic601

I use it myself on my Luxman PD-444 and I always recommend this arm to a friends as "best buy", here is the system I put together for a friend with this DA-401 tonearm. Soon I will put together another Technics SP-20 with Denon DA-401 for my local friend, the plinth will be different (custom made).

P.S. Any tonearm with open silicone bath (like those overpriced Micro Seiki MAX series) is BS in my opinion, I hate those KAB fluid dampers made for Technics tonearms because they are collect dust all the time! In a month it will be a sticky bath full of dust screwed to your tonearm. 

raul, could you explain what this means? It was directed at me. Are you taking a potshot at my new tonearm?
Problem is that those designs are undamped/way resonant and second are balanced designs and just rings as a " bell " using a non-adequated mechanism to set the VTF ( @billwojo . )
BillWojo

Thanks R

anyone running a Denon 401 ?

Anti skate should be in the vicinity of 10 % of the VTF. The most accurate way of measuring it is with a Wally Skater. https://www.wallyanalog.com/wallyskater The only problem with the Wally Skater is its price. A test record is much cheaper. 
I owned one of the first pair of Diva's produced. They were hands down Apogee's best speaker price considered. The Scintilla was a stop gap design with a ridiculously low impedance. The problem was you had to spend way more on amps to drive them than the speaker cost and regardless you were never going to get to Rock and Roll levels. I find it funny that a limited speaker such as the Scintilla could get the reputation it has. The Diva on the other hand was special. Flawed but special. After 6 years of playing with them I returned to ESLs where I will happily stay.
In part it was the flawed nature of their speakers that was in part responsible for their demise. Magnepan was very smart not to release a driver that was so easily damaged. You can still pop a Maggie tweeter but not near as easily as an Apogee tweeter not to mention the other ribbons are just as easily damaged.

For home use the anti-skating must be set up equal to tracking force (less for advanced profiles). At least this is a basic recommendation, following this advice, if the tracking force is 2g then the anti-skating is about 2g too. If the tracking force is 1g then anti-skating is also about 1g. The higher the tracking force the higher the anti-skating? No?

This is a dangerous and wrong assertion,

Generally, antiskating required is a little less than the tracking force, but it is non linear and very seldom, if ever, 1:1.

Antiskating is correct when the cantilever is parallel to the groove at the tangent when the record is playing.

Things could be that you are a tube audiophile 

No, I select amplifiers based on their ability to drive  the particular speakers to be used and the consequential sound quality of the COMBINED PAIRING.
Nobody in their right mind would try and drive Scintillas with tubes.

The FR-64fx was the last generation of Fidelity-Research tonearms. Japanese classics, designed by Isamu Ikeda.

Important new features of the 64fx model (and this is where it’s different from previous versions):

-the armtube is a mix of materials with higher damping,
-the anti-skating mechanism is different,
-headshell is different,
-tonearm base is much better,
-stock counterweight is light,

Heavy counterweight (FR W-250) is optional.

Tonearm stabilizer nut (FR N60) is optional.

Here is my spare New Old Stock FR-64fx in original box.

P.S. @knollbrent I prefer PUA-7 over earlier 237 model which I sold NOS few years ago.

Micro Seiki MAX series of tonearms are overpriced, they are going for insane price in used condition and it’s better to buy brand new Reed 3p "12 inch than those old Micro MAX series, because they are $5k+

There are much more fans of Ikeda and FR tonearms than Micro Seiki MAX.

Also I can’t remember any person on this forum who can criticize FR or Ikeda tonearms on this forum, except for one user.

But read below what @opus111 posted about Micro Seiki MAX 237 and 282 earlier here

"... Having owed both Max 282 and 237 multiple times, I’d say it is one of the worst sounding tonearms I have heard. Bright and sterile would be the right words to describe the sonic character. I would’ve still kept them if they sounded half as good as they looked.

FR-64 sounds 10X better at lower used price." 

-opus111 

Interesting? I bet

Dear @tomic601  : No where but with the lucky owners that bougth it. In the past we builded specially to custom order and were custom made.

You can listen ( up-graded version. ) at my place in México but you can't get it.

If my Essential 3180 been today in the market with competition as the top of the line coming from FM Acoustics , Boulder, D'angostino,  dartZeel or the 4 chasis CH ( set you back: 90K. The Boulder 60K. ) and I named these phonolinepreamps because the Essential is a real challenge for any of them then its price will comes around say 50K ( at least. ).

If you want it even for higher price I'm not sure to be involved again on the manufacture again.

Thank's to ask for.

R.

Dear @knollbrent  : "  FR64fx is one of my favorites too..." 

Along the other FR and the 345 you own all FR/ikeda are perhaps the worst qualituy performance tonearm design ever ( yes, it looks fine but at least me I don't buy because the " look ".), I owned both FR and Ikeda ones.

Problem is that those designs are undamped/way resonant and second are balanced designs and just rings as a " bell " using a non-adequated mechanism to set the VTF ( @billwojo . )

You said you own the Lustre GST 801 that it's a balanced design using a rigth mechanism to set the VTF, this has a name: engineering and knowledge levels that Ikeda just has not or forgot it.

You own good vintage tonearms ( but the FR/Ikeda ) but instead of that PUA-7 you need the Sony PUA-237/282 and you don't own yet the best vintage tonearm ever: MAX 237/282.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

@dover

Not a mystery at all. "Pro users" refers to radio stations, DJ’s etc where they use cartridges tracking at high tracking weights. The higher the tracking weight the less important antiskate is.

For home use the anti-skating must be set up equal to tracking force (less for advanced profiles). At least this is a basic recommendation, following this advice, if the tracking force is 2g then the anti-skating is about 2g too. If the tracking force is 1g then anti-skating is also about 1g. The higher the tracking force the higher the anti-skating? No?

For home use I’ve seen (and owned) only one tonearm without anti-skating, it was Schick "12 inch.

Why IKEDA removed the anti-skating from his PRO version of 64fx ?
The armlift also not there, it is a PRO tonearm for manual operation only.

@billwojo : atmasphere started about.
R.

This statement is false. Res ipsa loquitur when one is willing to contradict their self in order to make someone else wrong.

Dear Dover : I don't owned the Scintillas and only was an example and from what I remember about it does not sounds auwful. Things could be that you are a tube audiophile and remember that we are talking of the Dr3-VHC ampp that was designed to many years ago and certainly not up to the quality performance levels of more comporany amplifiers.

Please don't have a any doubt that if I know something is about MUSIC sound, Period.

Btw, with which amps you experienced lovely sound through the Scintillas and with which kind of music and at around which SPLs?, thank's in advance.

Btw, the top Apogee really " dance " and I don't know why Apogee disappears, pity.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

I'd take a Pro version of the FR64/66fx if the price was right. Yup mijostyn, I'd even put a old chisel  monster on it. LOLJust depends on what your looking for.

BillWojo

Chak, as I understand it the Pro version of the FR64/66fx is simply one that comes without the anti-skating device. A bit of a mystery actually, ’cause why should a pro user go without it and us regular folks supposedly need it and cartridge manufacturers advise us to use it also?

Not a mystery at all. "Pro users" refers to radio stations, DJ's etc where they use cartridges tracking at high tracking weights. The higher the tracking weight the less important antiskate is.

@atmasphere if not headroom explain how those 25 watts can handle the Scintilla. 

It can't. I distributed Apogees in the 80's. Heard the Classe amps on Apogees including Scintillas many times. They drove them but the sound was awful, big upper base hump and nothing else. If this is audio nirvana for you then you dont know what music sounds like.

Denon DA-401
Victor UA-7045 / UA-7082
Fidelity-Research FR-64fx
Fidelity-Research FR-64s
Lustre GST-801
Technics EPA-100
Technics EPA-100 mkII
IKEDA IT-345 
SONY PUA-7

Nice list @chakster 
Got both Victors, FR-64x, Sony PUA-7. Ikeda IT-345 is pretty cool as is the Denon. Lustre GST-801 is beautiful too. I love these vintage arms for their ability and look. Love the classics. 

Nice boat anchor Chakster. You'll need one of those Jap chisel monsters to go in it. Just for fun put an old V15 in it and see what happens:)

Ralph, Raul means well he is just hard to understand because of the language barrier. Next year he is going to come out with his own amplifier. Class R. It is obviously going to sound better than any other amp ever made. Since it runs on chicken pellets it will smell great too. 
Stereophile can't wait to smell a review. 

Really, I think you have a much larger fan club than Raul. You do not need to defend your position with us. The only used Atma-Spheres I ever see for sale are the little ones and I will bet you bacon for biscuits that there owners are moving up to larger ones. Sound Labs loves your amp with their speakers and that is enough for me:)

Chak, as I understand it the Pro version of the FR64/66fx is simply one that comes without the anti-skating device. A bit of a mystery actually, ’cause why should a pro user go without it and us regular folks supposedly need it and cartridge manufacturers advise us to use it also?

However, in daily practice I’ve arrived at the conclusion that a minimum of anti-skating actually works best, so maybe I’m almost a pro.....😂

Hi chilli42

In my last post I forgot to ask, did the used SME table come with an arm board and if so, which arm was it drilled for? The arm you choose must be compatible with the arm board. If it didn’t come with an arm board (which is unlikely) you will have to buy a new one either used or from SME. If you have to buy a new one they will have to drill it for the arm you choose. If you buy one used, then that will determine which arm you will need to buy. Hope that helps.

Scot

Hi chilli42

I had that exact same table and cartridge and it was awesome. I used it with two different tone arms, both were great. The first arm I had on it was a Naim Aro unipivot. Because the Dynavector cartridge was so heavy I had to get the bigger heavier counter weight. Once the heavier counter weight was installed it worked like a charm. I remember the midrange with that arm was magic. I miss that setup. 

The other arm I had on that rig was a Graham Phantom B44 (the original Phantom). The DRT XV1S is just a great cartridge. I’m not sure how it will sound with the rebuild/retip. I bought mine new. The Graham arm has been refined many times since I bought that original arm. I’m sure the newer versions are even better than the one I had and that arm was just amazing. The Graham Phantom arm (any version) is an extremely versital arm and will probably work well with just about any cartridge. Hard to beat. Great setup when dialed in properly. Hope that helps you. Enjoy. 

Scot

@billwojo : atmasphere started about.
R.

Yea, what is all this chatter about power amps about? Start your own thread. This went from interesting to dead boring.
BillWojo

Brent, you just wait, it’s beautiful.

Anyone ever heard about PRO version of Fidelity-Research FR-64fx ?

As always the thread goes to another direction, let's get back to tonearms, maybe?! 

@atmasphere if not headroom explain how those 25 watts can handle the Scintilla. Forgeret don’t explain nothing.

SS amplifiers with over 250 watts can´t do it ( not even with 400 watts at 8 0hms. ) and in the other side I never listen " your SS " clipping tale any time in that Classé or in my 20.6 or any decent contemporary SS amplifiers even at measured 105 SPLs.

The Classé Audio headroom was measured by JA and you can ask about D.Reich, not me. The 20.6s has no headroom as are fully regulated input to output and puts 800 watts at 1 omh and yes 1.6K watts at 0.5 ohms.

I told you other times that perhaps you belongs to the darkest side of the corrupted AHEE defending what has no defense at all supporting archaic technology used by the very low levels customers have and taking advantage of that ignorance levels but you are in that darkest hole because I never see Lamm or Air Tigth or Audio Research manufacturers shoting as you in any internet audio forum.

You are makiong a huge damage to the true music lovers only because is your way of living.

Of course this is a free world.

Enjoy your bs and o something nice to the AHEE other that your same tales.

Btw, blow-up tubes experiences with amps: one was with Atmasphere monoblocks in Philadelphia even the owner call you and I was there because I was hosted in his home, in F.Crowder home in Houston with a unit 3 times higher price that any of your items, at A.Porter in Dallas with a unit one channel down, here in my country a Conrand Johnson running Wilson speakers. In all those ocassions the owner system are top ones even at least two of them over the 250K. Do you know when I living not several experiences but one experience as those ones with SS electronics? NEVER.

Yes, tubes is synonimous of bs.

I take no single idea from atmasphere items. Our Essential 360 as our tonearm are self designs from zero and with no single advise from any where and no copy of anything. You are totally wrong on this as in many other things.

No it's not advertasing: all the gentlemans with whom I talked in the times of the developed of the Essential 3160 all them refuse to buy it and all the lucky gentlemans that bougth it I never beeen in touch with them they asked by email and bougth it with no advertasing.

R.

The DR3_VHC is a stereo pure class A non-feedback design with only 25 watts output power and a headroom of 6db.

That's pretty funny- if it is really class A, then the headroom is 0dB. So either its got 6dB headroom or its class A, but it can't be both.

You live in the past that kind of clipping just does not exist in SS today electronics even in the years of my Classé Audio.
It's not only totally inaudible but almost does not exist even if you try to you can't because the designs are very well care about.

This is also pretty funny.

 Tubes at any audio home electronics is bs. and unfortunatelly you can't do nothing about but to follow sale your electronics to the mediocrity/average of the audiophiles that were teached and learned through the corrupted AHEE where obviously you belongs as me and every one in audio. Period.

This word salad is not intelligible, and the reference to the 'corrupted AHEE' is weird- never heard of it. Nice ad for your preamp BTW- apparently you owe the idea of balanced operation to Atma-Sphere...

@chakster FR64fx is one of my favorites too. Mine is on its way from Russia in potato sack.