This turned out much longer than I anticipated, so I understand if you folks skip right over this post. For the rest of you, here we go.
I've been reading a lot about turntables for quite some time now. I have learned about matching tonearms and cartridges, resonant frequencies, compliance, azimuth, null points. And still I have difficulty choosing a model. Part of this is simply the number of choices available and the amount of disagreement between posters to forums such as this. But I think the biggest part of this is that one man's trash is another's treasure. People want different things from their turntables.
Look, there are folks out there, and you may be one of them, who are willing to devote time to tweaking and comparing and upgrading to squeeze every last bit of performance out of your systems. This is not a knock; it is clear you are passionate about your hobby and I am happy to see people get so much joy from their music. I wish I had the money, time and ears to conduct such experiments myself, but that's not me and it's not what I am looking for.
Here's what I am looking for in order of importance:
1. Tracking ability. I've read reviews to the tune of "this cartridge is amazing! Such detail, so dynamic! It doesn't track very well, but the slam!" Huh? If it doesn't track well, I don't give a fish how great it sounds. I've heard inner groove distortion and I want to minimize it as much as possible. Now, from what I've read, I should get a high-compliance cartridge because they track best, which means I should be looking for a low-mass tonearm. Except that manufacturers don't list the tonearm mass on their websites (I haven't found any, unless only the ones out of my price range do so) and the online tonearm database only lists mass for a few models, and of those I can afford, none of them are low-mass. Are there no affordable low-mass arms?
2. No fuss. I've read the arguments about VTA, and frankly I don't know what to believe. Some of you guys change it for every record, others never touch it. I want to think about my turntable as much as I think about my refrigerator; I want to open the door and the drinks to be cold. I want to play a record and hear music. If it's really a simple adjustment and makes an obvious difference, I'd consider it, but it's hard to know which of these suggestions are based in reality and which are just black magic.
3. Make my music sound good. I know, duh, right? What I mean is, I want MY music to sound good. I listen to R&B, Soul, and Rock through the 1970s. Up-tempo punchy music. I suspect a lot of these super expensive rigs are necessary to reveal the subtleties of symphonic works. Again, good on ya, I'm happy for classical fans, but I will never ever put a classic record on my platter, so those requirements go out the window. Think Little Richard, Sam Cooke, Beatles, James Brown, Led Zeppelin, Louis Jordan, Hendrix, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Ramones, Talking Heads, that sort of thing.
3.5 On the subject of revealing detail in recordings, not all my records are in pristine condition and I'm afraid too revealing a system may bring out surface noise to a level I'm not happy with. I've read reviews that label certain cartridges as "forgiving" Is this what they're referring to? Is this something I should consider when choosing hardware?
4. Price. I have $2000 to spend on a turntable, cartridge and phonostage. When I say I have $2000 to spend, it means I have $2000 to spend, not "Well, you can get this now, and then upgrade this and this." No, I have two grand and that's that. That is way more than I spent on my last table (MMF 2.1), so whatever I get will be a big improvement. And I don't WANT to upgrade. I want it to work great now and enjoy it with no eye to the future.
Some of you may be thinking, "Buddy, you should just stick to CDs; this hobby isn't for you." First off, while no CD-hater, I have heard the difference between vinyl and CD and it is appreciable. Vinyl playback can sound alive in a way I have never heard from its digital counterpart. Also, I already have a few hundred records just waiting to be played again.
The best analogy I could think of regarding my quest for a new turntable is cars. There are sportscars out there like Ferraris, Maseratis, etc. that are magnificent machines capable of unparalleled performance and fun. They are also, incredibly expensive and fussy. These babies need to be coddled and primped and maintained not just to run well, but to just plain run! Then, there's the S2000 which is an amazing car in its own right, nimble, attractive and best of all, it's a Honda, which means the thing just works. No constant tweaking and fussing over. Turn the key and off you go. Sure, it's no Lotus, but it's no Civic either.
There we are. Thank you if you've made it this far. I really do respect the collective knowledge of the members of this board and will appreciate any advice that may come my way.
Shrevie: You're asking for a new S2000 on a base Miata budget. Unless you go for a used turntable and preamp you aren't going to find your S2000 setup for $2000 USD. But you could have a decent base Miata setup for that amount.
I know there are lots of Technics owners that swear by the 1200 but there are also plenty of Technics owners that upgraded turntables. And I'd bet that most of them spent more than you're wanting to spend. But if you want reliability and ease of ownership for what you're willing to spend, the Technics 1200 is an obvious choice. And if I was buying a 1200 I'd splurge on the KAB tweaks.
The advice on going with moving magnet cartridges is good advice if you don't want to futz around with a moving coil setup. Moving coil cartridges are my preference, but you do need to pay attention to the signal path to get them to sound their best and that typically takes some extra cash for a step-up transformer or a more complex preamp. If you keep it simple with MM you can get a good preamp and cartridge for less money.
One last thing: Despite Tvad's snide comment about the Music Hall mmf-7.1 turntable, it's a good table for the money. (Not the best, but I don't believe there's a "best" anything at a given price point.) However, to get the most from that turntable you may need to fine tune it, something you wanted to avoid.
Shrevie - Here's my read on what you are saying. You want good performance and impeccable reliability. You would be happy to have wold class performance but don't want to pay for it in time, money or effort. Therefore, you willingly accept a compromise in performance in order to stay under budget and enjoy "set and forget" record playing. I'm with you 100% on all points and I not only would choose the Technics option, I have chosen it. Technics has made and sold more turntables than any other company in the history of the world. They have spent more money on R&D than Rega will ever live to see. And KABUSA provides the bridge between the utility of the Technics DJ table and the desires and needs of the audiophile community.
In the past I have used and owned SOTA, VPI, Well-Tempered, Linn, FONS, AR, B&O, Yamaha P-2, Luxman PD441, Denon, and others that don't spring to mind just now. I just sold my Technics SP-10 because I felt I could no longer justify tying up that much capital in something I use so little. Instead I now use a Technics SL-150 MK II with a Rega RB-300 tonearm. I am doing this only because I already owned the stuff. Otherwise I'd have purchased a KABUSA modded Technics 12xx table of some sort. The testimonials from people I know and respect like Armstrod and TVAD are too numerous, reasoned, and credible to be ignored.
By the way, a lot of the fiddling and fidgeting people do with their turntables is the result of a natural desire to maximize the experience rather than a need to continually adjust due to failure or fault.
"I have read nothing but bad things about direct drive tables: rumble, resonance from the motor under the platter. Are these issues overstated?"
Yes. I wonder where you read these "nothing but bad things" from. After all, the most highly regarded and the most expensive turntable in the world, Rockport Sirius III, at the time of its release was a direct-drive turntable. The record you will be playing is made from a record cutting lathe that has a direct-drive motor. Enough said.
By the way, there's more than one brand of direct-drive turntables other than Technics so if you don't like Technics does not mean you have to dismiss the whole direct-drive genre. I prefer post-1975 era products.
There are many poorly made belt-drive turntables out there as well with toy motors and glass platters. Be ware of hack jobs.
I like idler-drive, belt-drive, AND direct-drive so whatever you choose is fine by me but to dismiss the entire genre of products based on hearsay is limiting yourself the chance of getting exposed to different sound and fun. It's a shame.
Nor has she had an SL-1200, I suspect. "Tweaker's delight"??? Nonsense. And getting it modded by Kevin at KAB is NOT getting it modded by Mr. XYZ but by one of the most widely respected, most honest purveyors of audio gear in existence. Modded or not, the SL-1200 (and its variants) would be an excellent choice and will last a lifetime, or just about!
Tvad is right. My SP-15 is dead silent, no rumble, no motor noise, nothing, and the SL1200 was the same. I've heard the MMF 7.1 and the Rega P3, and they're pretty much lateral moves from the MMF 2.1. They're all just variations on the same theme. If you want to notice the difference right away, get the Technics.
Wow! That's a lot of replies in a short time on a holiday weekend. Thank you all. Here are my thoughts.
Perhaps the car analogy wasn't a good one for the non-car folks out there for whom the word Honda holds a certain meaning, so let me elaborate: The Honda S2000 was a $40,000 convertible. It should in no way be compared to an Accord or Civic. It was an amazing machine, but, of course, no comparison to certain Italian imports.
I am surprised by all the Technics recommendations. I know they are workhorses just by the number of old units that are still running, but I have read nothing but bad things about direct drive tables: rumble, resonance from the motor under the platter. Are these issues overstated?
I have listened to a Rega P3 -- in fact it may have been the setup recommended by Wgallupe -- and honestly, I wasn't that impressed. Don't get me wrong, it sounded good, but compared to my previous entry-level MMF, it didn't blow it out of the water as I would expect at over triple the price. I also thought it sounded a bit grainy, perhaps this is a property of the DynaVector cart (?). Is it wrong to expect to a $1700 table/cart to blow away a $400 one?
Though nothing is set in stone, I honestly wasn't looking to go the used route. There are so many models available now (who would have thought that 15 years ago?) and having a dealer set up the system for me is a big draw. Before I posted this, these were the models I had in mind:
I know nothing about SP-10's, other than reading about it's excellent rep and strong following. I am getting ready to add a second TT, to use aside my Basis 2500/Vector 3. I am not a great setup guy, and have had a few dealers work on my TT to get the best out of it. Let me get to my point here though. I will come right out and say I am sure the SP-10 deserves the high praise it receives. However, it can be an intimidating and/or confusing option for your average Joe like me.
For instance, I checked out this thread because I was interested in the SP-10. I proceeded to google Sp-10, and saw that it was no longer in production. Then I clicked Soundfountain.com and saw some gorgeous looking plinths for the SP-10. I am considering the new Well Tempered Amadeus, as it is in production and ready to go. I am likely in the minority here, but frankly would not know where to start in pursuing an SP-10. The Amadeus on the other hand would be nearly as easy as driving an S-2000 off the lot at Honda.
Hi Elizabeth I have owned a Miata and a S2000 They are not in the same league at all Performance is what I believe this thread is about and the S2000 angle explains it very well
The above posters are correct in recommending Rega - they are indeed the Honda S2000 of turntables, and the stock tonearm (RB300) on the mid-market models is legendary. They also do particularly well with the boisterous music you prefer. If you want to avoid turntable settings, the Rega cartridges are designed for the Rega arms - no settings or adjustments other than setting tracking force.
As for phono preamps, if reliability is important to you, Bryston used to make a $700 phono stage, the BP-1, which sounds good and is bullet-proof (all point-to-point wired and 20-year warranty - they were used by radio stations), but I believe they are out of production. You could call Chris Russell at Bryston to see if they make them to order.
I own a Honda S2000, and for my vinyl I would be firmly in the Technics Camp. While my current table is an SP-15 (I wanted more tonearm flexibility) I owned an SL1200 and for plug and play performance it's hard to beat. Having also owned a few belt drives, the speed stability of the Technics is unmatched at anything near it's price range. The KAB tweaks and some nice cones will give you a table you can enjoy for a long time, and will kill the MMF 2.1. That was my table before the Technics, so you and I are on roughly the same path. You won't be sorry you upgraded.
As for cartridges, after a swing through MC land I've landed back in MM territory. Currently I'm using an NOS Andante P-76, but there are lots of good choices out there; check out Raul's thread here:
Jfrech, You misunderstood, I said, "I would rather have something that's a little fussy and get the extra performance in both cars and stereo equipment." , but my recommendation is Technics. Technics has sold over 1,000,000 turntables, I think they know what they are doing. A Technics 1210 MKII turntable from KAB, with upgrades and cartridge will come in well under budget.
I totally understand and empathize with your stance. I own both a Technics SL1210 mk5 and a Linn LP12; I'm pretty sure they represent opposite ends of the vinyl spectrum from a turntable tweaking, care and maintenance standpoint. Sometimes I just want to spin and spin and spin with no thought to anything but enjoying the music - I choose the Technics. Sometimes I want to squeeze every last bit of everything out of an LP - I choose the Linn.
Technics:
Good sound out of the box Less expensive than anything close to it's build quality Easy setup/re-setup (VTA, VTF) Easy use (start/stop, 33 or 45 w/ a quick push of a button) Easy cartridge swapping (removeable headshell) Compatible w/ a varied list of very good cartridges Upgradeable (KAB) Bullet-proof Dead-on speed accurate
You can set it and forget it or, if you change your mind about tweaking, experiment to your heart's delight.
If I was in your boat I would be tempted to try the Funk Firm Funk that's listed here. The RB250 is a perfect candidate for upgrade of counterweight/wires(super easy) or replace the tonearm if needed. Plenty of budget left for the other tough decision- cartridge and phono stage. No, I don't know the seller etc...
A B&O 8002 table would do the trick. Tangential drive and tracking. Easy to set up and plug and play. No VTA, cartridge alignment or much else to fuss with. Pop the cartridge in and use the slider to set the weight. Auto return at the end of an LP side is a nice feature too.
You can find these used on eBay. For best performance send it to Soundsmith and have it refurbished. I got mine back from them recently and the performance is outstanding. Your total investment will be under $1200 (including cartridge) leaving enough left over for a phono stage and record cleaning kit.
Go for the Technics 1210MKII(new or used), an AT-150MLX cartridge and spend the remainder on a good phono pre-amp.
Finding the right pre-amp is just as important as the table and cartridge. Check out the needledoctor.com phono pre-amp section. The selection and price range is huge.
2nd the recommendation for Technics. Talk to Kevin at KAB Electroacoustics (http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/). $2K should be more than enough to get a nicely optioned (tonearm damper) 1210 along with a great cartridge. If you get one of his modified "integrated" cartridges, I think that would be about as close to plug and play as you can get. I like the car analogy.
This should be right up your alley: Rega P3-24 table, Dynavector 10x5 cart, Dynavector P-75 mk2 phono pre. A popular combo that is tough to beat for the money.
Sounds like he doesn't want fussy, just high performance at a price point.
Rega is hard to beat for your criteria in my opinion, The p5 plus a rega cartridge. 3 point mounting so no real adjustment other than dailing in the VTF (vert tracking force-weight) which is simple.
Buy a Technics, it's the Honda of turntables. I would rather have something that's a little fussy and get the extra performance in both cars and stereo equipment.
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