smills, Sounds like you're in the tubes with MLs camp. If that's what sounds best to you then that's what you should listen to. It sounds like the PrimaLuna gives you a better midrange while the Sanders sounds better in the lows and highs. Is that correct? Keep us informed of your amp tryouts and let us know what you end up with. This information is valuable for other ESL owners.
George, you've made your case and your input and knowledge is appreciated, but many people use tubes with MLs. Technically, you may be right, but we all have to judge with our ears and for all of us this is a continuing journey not a one-and-done. So some of the tubers may eventually come to agree with your point of view, but they'll do it when they're ready. |
Technically, you may be right, but we all have to judge with our ears and for all of us this is a continuing journey not a one-and-done. Not when someone could dump money on this https://ibb.co/NZLXFcf that has no chance of getting the very best out of the Summits. It’s better if the do-gooders that can’t decipher measurement, not to say anything if not sure when speakers as hard as these to drive are in the discussion. You’ll just waist the OP’s time and money!!!!! So some of the tubers may eventually come to agree with your point of view, but they’ll do it when they’re ready. Really!!! throw money at it and don’t get it right at first is your moto? |
I like that photo, George! Are you trying to say that I shouldn't rely on the manufacturer's responses? I understand that to some degree, but they are both reputable manufacturers/distributors and thus should know their products and speak the truth. If they did not, their reputations would suffer all over the internet, hurting their sales as well. I totally get what the charts are showing, but perhaps listening critically is the best overall indicator of whether something works or it doesn't. |
George, no that's not my motto. If someone reads the arguments against using a tube amp with their speakers, gets a ss amp made for those speakers and a tube amp, compares them in his system and decides he likes the tube amp better, I'm not going to argue with him about it. Life is too short. |
Are you trying to say that I shouldn’t rely on the manufacturer’s responses? They are wanting to sell an amp, it will work, but it won't get the best out of the Summits. What you should do instead of wasting time and money seeing now your going around in circles. Is to ask Martin Logan what amp out of the three PL , Rogue, and Sanders will drive the Summits to their best sound possible seeing your stuck on these. And then ask them what amps they have heard that get the very best out of them, then you’ll get an idea of what you’ll need, instead of listening to the non technical on what can drive this hard impedance and capacitive loading. Cheers George |
Sorry, I thought I'd shared that already. I did call Martin Logan about tube amps, but not specific brands or tube vs solid-state. Their response was very non-committal, probably because they do not want to give a recommendation for specific brands. All they shared was that the amplifier needs to have enough amps and current to drive the speakers. Not much help there, unfortunately. |
I have been hanging in the backround reading at the possibilities of ttube integrated over the other SS choice. Here is my take...... Having used a Chinese tube integrated for many years, I went to NuPrime STA-9 Class D amp with my Martin Logans. The sound was so much more dynamic and vocals were just clear in a way that it felt like a veil came off. That was then, and below is now. Martin Logan Montis Speakers I'm using a tube Schiit Freya preamp that has been perfect for allowing for the tube sound, and also the ability to bypass the tubes for passive, or JFET sound. What a preamp, and at $699, a steal. It houses (4) 6SN7 tubes, and they are considered great tubes for sound and tube rolling. Amplfier that is hands down the best at low cost. Vintage Krell. Krell with their Class A sound and power doubling for each change in ohms, just put every other amp to shame. I now have a Krell KSA-200s, and 2 other Krell amps that have been serviced. A serviced vintage Krell will get all new capacitors and another 20 years of life. The sound will equal amps costing $20k or more. High Performance Stereo https://www.highperformancestereo.com/power-amplifiers/solid-state/krellkst100.html has this Krell KST-100 for $1,560. I have this Krell and it would be plenty to drive your Summit at 200 watts/ch @4ohms. The Class A is what seals the deal. Krell is known as having the best dynamics and low end. Speaking of low end. I find that the SummitX or the Montis does better with 2 REL S Series subs. Enhances the whole speaker in a way that you think you got new speakers. Expensive yes, but can be found used for a good price. REL is something you should read up on. Trying to tell you in a sentence is not fair to the experience you will get out of them. Been involved in audio for close to 50 years. I'm still picking my jaw off the ground after going from one REL S3 to 2 REL S3s, now in true stereo. |
All they shared was that the amplifier needs to have enough amps and current to drive the speakers. Not much help there, unfortunately.
Yes that says a lot, and what I've been trying to tell you. Tube amps cannot do current like solid state amps can, especially the ones being bandied around in this thread. Amp that do current well, are ones that can almost double their full output wattages from 8ohm to 4ohm and again from 4ohm to 2ohm EG: the hypothetical perfect amp that does current well, (there are always losses though) 100w at 8ohms 200w at 4ohms 400w at 2ohms Cheers George |
Well, final decision time. I very much appreciate all the advice and comments in this thread! Definitely shows the passion we all have for this great hobby and the diversity of thought and really, hearing each of us has. There are so many options and variabilities to choose from, but in the end, as many of you have stated, it comes down to our individual hearing preferences, goals, and budget.
Today I returned the Sanders amp. What a great company! They paid to ship the amp to me and allowed me 30 days to trial it. When I told them I was going to return it, they sent me a return notice from UPS - they paid the return shipping costs too! As soon as it arrives, they said they will refund my entire purchase cost. Who does that today? Great people!
Tomorrow I will send my Plinius to Upscale Audio and I will keep the Primaluna. Why? I really love the sound, and I like the idea of tweaking the sound with new tubes. I also spoke with a person who works on tube amplifiers who told me he did not believe I would have any problems with the PL and my Summit X speakers because of the size of the output transformers, which made me feel even better about my decision. This amp is a BIG STEP UP from the Plinius.
Is this the last amplifier I will own? No, it is not. At some point I do want to have a separate preamp and amplifier. When I do, I will consider all the options the participants in this thread have provided, and maybe even a tube preamp with SS amplifier. The PL integrated gives me a chance to try out tubes without breaking my budget by buying separates. And if my hearing becomes more critical and I do hear signs of the amp clipping, I can always sell it and start the upgrade process then. This decision has the added benefit of not having to convince my wife I need another $3000 (HaHa - she does not hear or see value in this hobby, prefering to listen to her music from her phone - yes, her phone!).
Given my budget and hearing, I feel this is the wisest choice right now. I have no doubt there are even better amplifiers out there to consider, but budget does have to be a consideration. I think of this as evolution toward audio nirvana, whatever that looks like to each of us. I definitely have more upgrades in my future.
Thank you again for all your help and guidance!
Steve |
smills59,
Enjoy you're new setup. As you found out for yourself, the knowledge/wisdom of the forums is valuable, yet it doesn't replace what your ears ultimately prefer.
If your space allows it, speaker placement /room treatment will optimize their performance further.
Happy listening!
|
The smills59 OP will be back after the tube glow thing has has lost it’s appeal, for the right amp for the Summits as bigddesign3 did with a Krell. As Martin Logan said Summits need current to sound at their best. (BTW current and amps are the same to whoever thought they were different) Cheers George |
george, it seems like you don't understand when to move on and let the man enjoy his new purchase. You need to eventually recognize that measurements are not the only factor in getting good sound....and your opinion is only one out of many.
|
We'll see.
Go back and read, the OP's got some negative questions on the sibilance area of frequency range, and you from memory can understand measurements should know, that esl's don't do sibilance, if anything they excel in that area being smooth, sweet and transparent.
But the PL's upper rising HF FR peak is not a good measurement and a concern with the low impedance of the Summits. And could be the cause. |
I have the PL Dialogue Premium (not HP version) and drove the ML ESLs (first version) with it and it sounded great to me. I used EL34s, KT88s, KT77s, KT120, KT150s, 6550s over several years, and various NOS input tubes in the PL, and my PL Prologue Premium pre-amp. I used the 4ohm taps for the MLs and always came back to the SED Winged C EL34 and Sovtek 6550 power tubes. I “serious” listen to only vinyl. Rock, jazz, lots of guitar oriented music, vocals, and the PL ML combination was nice, the panels “disappeared” as they should. Never cared about lots of bass, am 63 and not into shrill sounding anything. Mostly NOS Mullards and Brimars in my pre-tubes, amp included.
|
What ? You stated the Primaluna would roll off the highs . Now it the cause of sibilance . Pick one theory and stick with it "Sunshine" |
Go back and read sunshine!! take a pill and chill!
I also said the PL’s "hf peak could" counter that in a very crude way.
A normal tube amp with a flat frequency response (no peak) will roll off the highs with the 1ohm load of the Summits. |
Thanks again everyone! Moofoo, I'm 62, and my hearing has also changed. I wish I was into audio when I was younger, but at that time I also didn't have the funds due to raising a family. I'm into it now though!
Just received my credits from Upscale Audio (my Plinius) and Sanders, so settling into the PL now. Currently listening to Crosby, Stills, Nash from the 4 ohm tap. I'll change to the 8 ohm in a few days to compare. Once I've listened to the current tubes, I will probably roll the preamp two tubes just to see if my 62 year old ears hear a difference before moving to others. Fun! |
Glad you are enjoying it! For me it is all about the music, but you have to research, listen, buy and sell, experiment, and take chances to really learn to even begin to understand what sound you want to get out of your system. So in a sense you have to go through the equipment to get to the music. A super fun hobby, and lifestyle it is.
|
I'm loving it! The Plinius was nice, but this is just a HUGE step up in my system. Listening to Domnerus Antiphone Blues right now and it's just amazing. I have no speakers that I can point to, just beautiful noise. |
I’m loving it! The Plinius was nice, but this is just a HUGE step up in my system. What happened to the sibilance ( "T" "C" "S" sounds) problem you had after 100hrs of break in with the Prima Luna, which was better with the Sanders amps? Strange you’ve said nothing more about it. Cheers George |
Oh it's still there. Primarily on one SACD: The Absence by Melody Gardot, and primarily on only two tracts. I do notice it in a small way on other pieces and I'm trying to find out if I'm just really listening for it, it's a recording issue, or an issue with the speaker/amplifier combination. I did read that this can be tamed a bit with different preamp tubes (2), but before I do that, I want to make sure of what I'm hearing. Overall though, this is really minor; most of what I listed to is jazz instrumentals, chamber music, and more easy listening POP, and other than a few tracks, these all sound great. More time will narrow this down. As I said above, the Sanders had it too, just not as directed. Could be it was always there and I just didn't notice it before. Or it wasn't because the Plinius was not up to the task. |
Rogue Apollo could be a great match |
I have a close friend who has Macintosh gear (no tubes) and Maggie speakers. He has many of the same SACDs as I do, and as luck would have it, he has the same SACD by Melody Gardot (Absence) that started me concentrating on sibilance as a potential problem. He is a true audiophile for many years and owns well over 1,000 albums and CDs. Tonight he listened to this SACD with his system and says that he thinks the recording is poor because he hears the same issues with "SH" and "T" especially. I'm thinking I heard that and it was more apparent than in the past because of the higher quality of the Plinius. Once focused on it, I heard it with other music as well. We'll see; I'm going to keep listening ,and not to that SACD, to see if the sibilance I was hearing was real.
Right now I'm sitting back and listening to Grover Washington Jr.--just wonderful!!!
Stay tuned George! |
@smills59 If you're really focused on tubes, you need an amp with really, I do mean, really good transformers and as long of an output impedance as possible. I don't know why you're looking at PL or Chronus. There are a few Audio Research VSI75s sitting around for sale around $4500 price point. Pick one of them up. If that won't drive them without sibilance, nothing else will. |
I mean to say as low as possible of an output impedance |
It's very odd you've singled out sacd as a culprit of the sibilance, if anything I have found sacd and dsd (sacd with the flag) too mellow in that area and un-naturally smooth. with non of the excitement and drive that RedBook PCM has got.
And then also you said the Sanders amp reduced the sibilance.
Cheers George
|
as long of an output impedance as possible.
"as low of an output impedance as possible." Spelling correction for
astelmaszek
Chers George |
I'll echo a few other posts. I have been using electrostatic speakers since 1978. Tube amps just do not cut it with this type of speaker even if you cross over to a woofer or subwoofer. The impedance drops with increasing frequency and they are essentially capacitors throwing voltage back at the amp. High power transistor amps just handle this better mostly because of their ability to control heat / handle current. If you want tube sound go with any Pass or Curl design. I think they are the best at making solid state sound like tubes. Parasound may have a reasonably priced one as might Pass labs.
If you have to go with Tubes use the low impedance tap.
Sanders Sound Systems has a great white paper on this topic posted on his web site. |
