Isamu-Ikeda made various cantileverless models in Japan, they are LOMC
LONDON Decca, Tzar DST and similar cartridges
I have always been curious about these phono cartridges and the Stereophile review of the Tzar DST has heightened my interest. When I read about the peculiarities of these cartridges, I am put off from trying them. Can anyone offer persuasive reasons to try them and also provide real practical advice on how to make them work reliably? Tonearm suggestions? Phono preamp suggestions? Damping recommendations? How badly do they grind out record grooves? Any other words of advice? Thanks.
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The LDR has a cantilever, it is just oriented in a different direction. The problem is that the groove must now lift the entire mass of the assembly and not just the effective mass. Thus, tracking and record wear suffer. There is a reason nobody else makes a cartridge like this. Only the British could come up with a design like this. The Tzar I have never seen of heard so no comment there. |
Hey good morning. I'm curious if any London Decca/Tzar owners have experience comparing their carts to the Soundsmith moving irons, and/or the SS strain gauge (i understand the SG system is not a MI cart)? I'm interested in moving towards the MI carts for all the positive user experience shared on this thread and others. I also like the idea of the strain gauge because in the words of Paul Cavalconte (NYC DJ), its perform's like a Decca that actually tracks. I also like that its a system that removes the cost of a phono preamp, actually seems like a reasonable good deal. I have not heard either in person (Other than on youtube clips and that Paul Cavalconte uses the strain gauge to rip vinyl for his radio show using the strain gauge). Would love to read any users thoughts on comparisons. Also, any London Decca, Soundsmith or Tzar owners in NE Ohio area that wants to spin some records, I'll bring the refreshments! Thanks. |
Hi @Bydlo glad you’re enjoying the LDR ! I’ve probably arrived late on this bit of this excellent thread, but just to let you know I’ve always had the sort of “squeak” you refer to- I think it’s normal and I recall reading a (gushing) Ken Kessler review of the LDR where he alluded to something of that nature too. A couple of other points to throw into the mix : my LDR is mounted on an FR66 tonearm and I tried a few different headshells along the way. I’ve ended up with an Arche headshell , but the one that stood out for me with the LDR apart from this was the Yamamoto African ebony wood headshell which was really good with the LDR (in my system at least !). This will sound OCD, but using titanium headshell screws in the Arche also made a material improvement, as did using good quality headshell wires (the aggolos silver ones being very good and flexible for ease of fitting). Finally, I use Vertex AQ silver tonearm cable from the Brinkmann Balance into the Allnic H3000 phono stage set at 47k.I read the various stuff about changing that 47k impedance to a lower number ( I honestly can’t remember what but I’ll check and let you know ) and Vertex made me a bespoke cable that did that , and yes it again made a significant improvement (it was a while ago but I recall it pretty well got rid of any slight steeliness in certain high frequencies). If you’re lucky enough to be able to change from 47k on your phono stage then it’s worth experimenting, although (and here I haven’t a clue what I’m talking about in actual physics) I’m told by Vertex that the true impedence is affected by the cable, so it’s not just what the knob on the phone stage necessarily says. Best regards and enjoy the music ! |
@bydlo I'm pleased you were able to 'trial' the LDR via my videos and find it a "revelation" 😃 I have been listening to it just the last day and agree with you.... I would not recommend that you adjust the VTA just to try and eliminate this sound because I believe it's quite normal. The reason I think there is no 'squeak' when I LOWER the arm, is because the hydraulic lifter on the FR-66S lowers it gently in a very controlled manner. Because the LDR has no cantilever, I think there is no 'flex' when the cartridge contacts the groove or leaves it. Therefore I'm convinced it is perfectly normal and nothing to worry about...🤗 Happy listening |
@halcro I’m waiting for Brian and John to comment. When I lowered the VTA a little bit, the squeak became less pronounced. To lower further I have to take the TT out of the plinth and work on the EMT930 tonearm rest...a pain :/ Anyway, halcro not sure if you read my earlier comments on the cart - it is a revelation!! I’d like to thank you for providing so much valuable info on it which helped me discover this gem! I've started buying more records and invested in costly vintage tubes for my amps :) |
@halcro - smart :) Here is an info I got form an experienced Decca user: "Clicking and clunking sound when stylus is lowered into or raised from the groove is, IMO, mainly associated with VTA/SRA settings. At some point of VTA/SRA adjustment, the contact noise will disappear. Of course, other adjustments such as bias, leveling, tracking angle, etc. also come into the picture. Make adjustments as needed." And another bit of info from the net: "It really does seem that the better the diamond profile, the less of a problem the extreme treble is and obviously arm damping and resonances aids this as well. You can always tell if a Decca is misbehaving as the nasal sounding "snap" as the stylus enters the groove is quite pronounced." Was wondering if other LDR users second that. I definitely have this short "snap" sound, which until recently I though was inherent to the design. |
Thank you guys :) It's more of a "plum"-type of a sound. Very short. It comes through the speakers when I lower and rise the cart. I doubt the cart has any damage as it tracks the most demanding opera/orchestra tracks like a charm! Even dirty vinyls. It doesn't really bother me but elsewhere got read that it is sort of normal with non-optimal setup, esp. the VTA. I've contacted Brian, let's see what he says. This beauty definitely desires every effort to optimize the setup! |
Went through another fine tuning session with my DLR. Unfortunately at the moment my system is not where I live so I have access to it only every 2-3 weeks :( I keep beeing amazed by the cart. VTA - used a VTA block to check the cart top was parallel and gave it a tiny bit of a negative angle (tail down). Gave more body and volume to the sound, v nice! Changed the London supplied steel screws to Transcendent Frequencies titanium ones, the same length as London’s. The VTF decreased quite a lot by some 0.7g. After compensating and checking the alignment with a copy of the Dennesen protractor (Nerve Audio) did not detect any difference. Might...MIGHT be the sound went a tiny bit more direct but that could be my fantasy. Hum - f...k it, didn’t bother to ground the EMT930 to see if it disappear. Doesn’t bother me once the music start playing. Anti skate - tried all the range from 0.5g to 2.5g on two test records (HiFi News and Clearaudio). No...NO..change in tracking ability of any sort. Nothing, nada. It misstracked exactly the same way and in the same places both on 0.5g, 2,5g and in between. DLR is not a torture track champ but who cares? Multiple atempts to visually examine if the diamond leans to the center or to the outside when lowered gave nothing either - it stays straight. Set AS to minimal on my FR64s. To do: 1) Change the RCA sockets and the input MM wiring on my DIY EAR834 phono to WBT silver and solid core Ag wire. All bought, have to burn it in first before soldering in. 2) After some 20h more (30h total) will start playing with the load (now 47,5k) but honestly don’t feel any need now. Will try to measure the capacitance input tube to cart pins and perhaps add a silver mica cap to bring up to the London recommended. Great journey! |
@noromance Re R load, in my usual procedure, I first experiment with Dale RN60 and when I find the correct value I replace with a Z-foil (or actually Charctroft). Before placing I burn the resitors with a modulated pink noise for 3 days. Great resistors! ATM, I do not miss clarity but a bit of the body but I’ll wait until the cart burns in before any load changes (I’ll only change now the input RCA’s to WBT silver ones plus silver wiring from them to the input cart selector of my phono; this way will have a fully silver path from cart to the input tube grid). |
I find the loading setting to sound best for my Deccas at 47k.* Lower values, while recommended, took some life away. It could be argued that I am not damping a resonance in the presence region but... *I experimented and found that using 51k Vishay Z-foil resistors brings greater clarity, air, blackness and enhanced the color of vocals and instruments. You might also try 100k and 1Meg as I have heard it sounds good there too. |
Yeah, the low ride can pick up fluff but I find that the stylus picks up a lot less than cantilever-based cartridges. Agreed on the soft brush -you don’t want to damage the tieback cord or worse. No idea about the AT637 but can't imagine there'd be an issue. I sent a well-used 6 year old SG to JW for work and he told me the stylus was not worn. This is a testament to the Magic Eraser and clean records. |
@noromance Thanks! I have to learn properly how to set VTA by ear. It's a pain in my EMT setup but looks like I cannot avoid it. Is LDR very sensitive here? BTW confirmed with Brian that cart top should be parallel not the arm. My vinyls ale cleaned with both ultrasonic and suction plus I brush before dropping the needle, but it still catches longish thin dust "hairs". Good to know Mr Muscle (aka Magic eraser) can be used with LDR, thanks! Was asking Brian but he mentioned only soft brush. Do you know if ultrasonic cleaners like AT637 can also be used? |
@bydlo Good read. Congrats. I tweak VTA by ear and lock it in when it sounds best - and I usually end up with the arm higher at the back. It will snap into focus within a small range so don't be afraid to experiment. My records must be clean because I do not get much fluff on the stylus. I drop and lift a few times into a Mr. Muscle pad every side. Pays dividends in diamond life. |
I'm after my first date with LDR. It replaced a (modded) FR7f on my FR64s arm. Well... At some moment I've found myself standing and conducting together with Zubin Mehta leading Israelis...to my memory this has not happened to me before....;) Very direct, with a huge emotional potential, can go from soft sweet whisper to absolute drama in nanoseconds. Listening briefly to Bruckner 8 under Wand I got really scared. Bass....haven't heard such a powerful bass control before, fabulous heights (Joan Sutherland singing Haendel is the best test). Unlike some report, soundstage, or rather headstage in my case as I listen on headphones, did not get narrower. Its there, as big as the recording calls with great 3D imaging. But the girl is moody as hell - any mistake (scratches, dirt, dust, surface noise, etc) is immediately thrown into your face. Did mistrack once (buzz in the right channel) but surprisingly not on a loud and complex passage which it handles easily and emotionally. To the opposite. Collects dust like if it was a jewelery. These are my initial impressions after only about 3-4h listening. Problems so far: i) hum - not annoying but clearly there; comes from the EMT930 motor and (to a lower extend) the strobo lamp; with the TT off all dead quiet; I run TT ungrounded, probably grounding it could help; in general EMT930 is not a quiet TT, I think I also slightly hear the platter rotation ii) a slight feeling sometimes that the right channel is a bit deadened; the balance does not shift to the left but the right channel a bit "sleeps"; my setup is v crude so probably VTA/anti-skate needs more play (azimuth measured v good). The setup (1st attempt): FR64S on EMT930, Orsonic AV101 headshell with Ikeda silver wires, AQ Leopard into DIY EAR834 phono. 1) Vertical geometry: VTF at 1.85g, VTA - the cart top parallel to the record surface (set by eye, waiting for a VTA block to do it better). This resulted in the arm back going quite up and giving me a headache to properly set the height of the EMT arm lift that I'm using (that was the biggest pain in the whole setup!!) The London leaflet says to keep the arm parallel but then the cart top surface is quite slanted. Azimuth set using a mirror and then 800-20k Ortofon Test LP sweeps. 2) Horizontal geometry: Although completely unsupported by alignment tools I know, I followed the crowd and aimed at the alternative 231.5mm P2S distance. Getting it off EMT930 is tricky, I have a custom made collar with an off-center hole. After much sweating I was able to come close, some 231mm probably. The best what could be done. The P2S was set using Nerve Audio copy of the Dennesen protractor. The overhang was set using both Dennesen and custom made MINT (for 231.5mm of course). Orsonic headshell did not make my life easier as it has v short slots. Pulling the cart all the way back and removing the rubber gasket of AV101 (anyway recommended by FR64s manual) made it possible to be spot on with both Dennesen and MINT. Angular alignment was done with Dennesen and sort of cross checked with MINT. In lieu of the cantilever, I was aligning the stylus image with the MINT cross lines.Anti-skate - first set to about 2g, then decreased to 1.5g without much effects. Have to learn and experiment more. Especially to improve tracking and perhaps that slight right channel "sleeping". 3) Electrical: 47.5k standard load. I'll wait some 20h to beak in and then play with the load. Now it sounds very good, perhaps I wouldn't mind having a bit more body but that can also be my electrostats. All in all I'm very happy with this "drama queen" :) THis is what I've been looking for - a direct, hard reading no-mercy cart |
FR7 series I actually have the basic FR7, the FR7fz (that you refer to), a “one off “ which is stamped “PW-1” as well as the FR7fc. Interesting, I realized you have all the big guns already, great! I gave up on "fc" since i have "fz" (and "f" before). My current injection phono stage transfered my FR-7fz to another level, compared to conventional pnono stages, hedamps and SUTs. |
@howardalex, a while ago there was some talk on this forum about 'special' FR7's with unbelievable specs. Very rare and perhaps aimed at the professional market, as you suggest. In any case, it appears you are in possession of something truly special! The FZ version is usually quoted as the best of the regular models, but I have come to prefer the MC 702. Another peculiar and rare one, apparently the last of the FR7's and supposedly aimed at the European market. Whatever the case may be, it is exquisite. |
This is for you Bydlo....to keep you going till your LDR arrives 😃 I run mine at the recommended 1.8Gm (2/3 Static Force, 1/3 Dynamic) with a modicum of Antiskate 🤏 This shows the versatility of the LDR to 'rock' despite the often disruptive interference of Phil Spector.... LONDON DECCA REFERENCE |
@edgware - I bought the FR7 “PW-1” from a Japanese seller on eBay (touching wood I’ve only had positive experiences so far buying like that ...); According to him the “PW” stood for “professional world”, as in Fidelity Research made one offs for radio stations or that sort of thing. I’ve no idea if that’s actually the case or just an educated guess, but that’s what he said. Sonically it’s really good, I immediately preferred it to the FR 7 and FR7 fz I already had when I got it as it seemed a bit more refined in the high frequency range - more airy on the midrange too. It must have a lower output (like the fc) as it produces less volume. If I can figure out how to post a photo I’ll put one on. |
@halcro I asked Yip for 231.5mm alternative distance. The UNI I believe is an evolved version of the Dennesen (I have Nerva audio copy, very well made!). I also have an alternative protractor made to order by late Wally Malewicz (sadly was his last job). I guess I'll start with Mint which I know best. Got the point with setting P2S as precisely as possible, thanks! |
To any LDR fettlers, my continuing odyssey into its set up continues. For a while I ran it in my FR66s at 2.0 gms and no anti skate. i now run it at 1.82 gms with a tiny amount of bias (on the FR using the small weight at just a little in from the minimum setting) and I think it’s better- more texture and delicacy without any loss of tracking ability. On the Hi Fi news test record the results are : lateral test - the cartridge shakes (badly !) at 7hz; vertical test - same shake at 15 hz. Those tests are not affected by VTF. i use the Arche headshell - it may be OCD but the titanium headshell screws they also sell helped with the LR - I guess “ every little helps ...” |
@chakster, re the FR7 series I actually have the basic FR7, the FR7fz (that you refer to), a “one off “ which is stamped “PW-1” as well as the FR7fc. In my system the FR7fc and the “PW-1” shade it ahead of the fz (which is itself a big upgrade on the basic FR7). To my ears the fc is just more musical, like an mc version of the London Reference. Of course my ears could probably also do with an upgrade, but sadly I’m stuck with them ! |
@halcro Of course, I meant carbon fibre not graphite. I returned the Yamamoto CF headshell so I can’t experiment further. The bass was better delineated but the upper mids, highs and air were attenuated. That's a no-no for me. If I get a tax rebate, I may try the Arche. It is expensive but it has sterling feedback. |
I use the UNI-protractor for all my cartridge set-ups except with the DV-507/II which comes with its own easy-to-use Overhang Gauge. I don't think you should have trouble with the Mint..... Presumably Yip prepared it with the P to S distance of 250mm rather than the 251.5mm recommended by Dietrich Brakemeier....? And he normally sets it to Baerwald (Löfgren A)...so just ensure your P to S is as accurate as you can get it. Good luck. |
Thanks Noromance.....😃 You wrote a few years ago advising against graphite headshells. What changed your mind?Good question..... I made the common mistake of audiophiles in 'assuming' that my experiences with carbon-fibre (not graphite) in the playback system (mats, tonearms) would apply to headshells as well....🤗 When I actually tried the Yamamoto HS-4 Carbon Fiber in my system....I realised I had been wrong.....🙃 Are you still having the same issues with your HS-4 headshell....? |
I have one practical question on how to speak to this petulant girl. Which protractor types do you use? I have a Mint protractor for my FR64s. Since LDR has no cantilever, is is still possible to use it to find the correct angle? Another tool I have is a copy of a Dennesen protractor (admitedly never used it, relying solely on Mints). Any tips :) ? Thank you |
Congratulations Bydlo, on your (soon to be installed) LDR 🎉 I'm glad my videos were able to help in your decision..... Just be patient with it and give it time and attention. Like a petulant new girlfriend, you'll have to give a little for her to give a little until you're both cemented in what could be a permanent relationship 👄❤️ Hope to hear some encouraging reports from you after your first 'date' 😝 |