Linn Sondek LP12 impressions

Cartridges were Linn Adikt and Klyde. $500 and $4k respectively here in Canada. On my Linn my Linn Basik, K5 and Sumiko Blue Point cartridges could not track it. The same cheapo Linn Basik cartridge had no trouble on a different table, a Revolver with you guessed it a Linn arm. I was surprised that a modern Linn set up in a good shop could not play it either.

BTW, I really liked the sound of both of the Linns I heard. I thought the Adikt was a really good cartridge. My dealer thought it would be a good match for my Rega P5.

If Linn ever revives their non suspended designs like the original Basik or Axis, I would definitely consider them. I regret selling my Axis.

One other thing that might work against or for the Linn is its appearance. A nice used one for a $1 to $2k looks similar to the new ones costing 10 times as much. There are some really nice looking tables out there now.

Again, I am surprised Linn did not bring out a more modern looking table considering how attractive all of their other components are.

Banerjba, what were the tracking forces used on the different tables? I doubt that they were the same. An incorrectly set up cartridge might not track well in one instance and would track better once correctly set up. Same thing applies for an incorrectly set up arm.
As to the looks of the Linn, I don't subscribe to the fact that it looks bad. In fact I think the fluted look is pretty classic. Plus, one can change the plinth to make it look amazing. If you don't like the look of a plinth, that's another thing, BUT I think there are a LOT of TT's that look worse than the Linn and at all prices.

The cartridges were likely set up correctly by an excellent Linn dealer. Mine was tuned up by the fellow considered number one in the area.

My $200 plastic Technics P mount with elcheapo cartridge can play the record. The fact that. $4k turntable than has been built for 40 years could not at an authorized dealer is not a good thing. I don't see any modern tables emulating anything from the Linn design and few are staying with a sprung design of any kind let alone one like the Linn. I owned an older Thorens which was also sprung and certain aspects of the Linn are similar. The Thorens never went off and could always play all of my records. Of course it had neither the soundstage or PRaT of the Linn.

I actually like the looks of the classic Linn. I had the nice grooved Afrmosia which is the classic look.

Banerjba, do you REALLY believe that the LP12 is at fault because one of your records couldn't be tracked by an arm and cartridge ( I'm not sure you have mentioned which) that was mounted on the LP12!!--- I'm done with this stupidity.

Actually quite a number of my records could not be tracked by this table. The same cartridge on a different table had not issue. The particular record is one I used to take with to test at dealers. I was actually looking to buy a new model thinking they use have improved since I bought mine nearly two decades ago.

Anyway not to beat a dead horse. These days I also use record weights which are not ideally suited to suspended tables.

I seem to remember someone created an aftermarket kit that swapped out the springs for rubber suspension components. Never seen this in Canada but that would be interesting to try.

My Civic will ride over rough roads that my buddy's Corvette can't traverse. Putting a lot of money into a Linn is a choice one makes, hopefully aware of the pros and cons. You just have to want to own a Linn. You either feel it or you don't.

If you are looking at cheaper turntables that are interesting, I would include Audio Note TT2 and JC Verdier La Platine(I think that's the name.).  When it comes time to upgrade your turntable, there are many advantages to changing things on your turntable(Linn), rather than selling your entire turntable.

I bought my first LP12 in 1982 and have owned one for most of the time since, though I have also owned other tables including several Rega P3's, the Roksan Xerxes, Roksan TMS, Michell Orbe SE, Avid Acutus, Spiral Groove SG2 and, currently, a Spiral Groove SG1.1.

I recently updated my 1989-era LP12 from the glued subchassis Valhalla to a Kore with a Lingo. I retained my Rega RB300 during the update but moved from a Shure V15 Vxmr to one of my two Koetsu Urushi Vermillions. Of course, it is difficult to know how much of the improvement I experienced owed to the change in cartridge versus the subchassis versus the motor and power supply. Suffice it to say, however, that while the Linn is not as good as my Spiral Groove SG1.1, Triplanar VII uii, and Koetsu Urushi Vermillion, the differences are more subtle than dramatic. This encouraged me to upgrade my LP12 further, though I have not yet accomplished that.

In my experience, there are a few observations I would make regarding the LP12.

With an LP12, everything matters, starting with the surface upon which you place the turntable, the degree to which screws have been tightened throughout the turntable, suspension set up and even whether the dust cover lid is up or down when playing. To be fair, other turntables may be just as subject to influence of various, similar factors. Good set up is good set up regardless of turntable. The LP12 may, however, be especially subject to the "tweaky" and "difficult to set up" reputation because the LP12 has a suspension that can be challenging to tune. What, exactly, does a "perfectly pistonic bounce" look like, exactly? (Hint: It depends upon how and where you tap the platter.)

While the suspension alone does not create all of the differences in LP12 performance based on set up, it is something that can puzzle and frustrate less experienced users.  Getting the help of a good dealer is of great importance when setting up a Linn: Thomas O'Keefe in Michigan, Rick Duplisea in Colorado and Peter Swain in the UK come to mind as leading LP12 experts.

The LP12 is hardly a single model. A Majik LP12 selling for $4,200 or so does not perform at a state of the art level as may a Klimax LP12 that sells for more than $20,000. It is a remarkable product in that owners can, piece-by-piece, take a competent base-level turntable and transform it to a very refined and expensive turntable as funds allow without needing to buy and sell turntables as one chases improved performance. 

Some liken the LP12 to a Porsche 911. The products both date back more than 40 years and both have been refined and refined and refined. Perhaps Linn would have better foregone the LP12's suspended subchassis and maybe Porsche should have mounted the engine in the middle of the car, not behind the rear axle. But maybe after having started in suboptimal places, each manufacturer has continuously improved the product to the point where each can compete with even more expensive and quite competent products.

I recently met Linn's representative responsible for dealerships in Europe and he assured me that anything, anything that one could imagine doing to improve an LP12, Linn has tried. It is a substantial engineering company with 150 to 200 employees. A dealer with whom I spoke recalled a factory tour he took years ago where he saw approximately 200 different belts that Linn was experimenting with for the LP12. Linn has taken very seriously (obsessively?) the opportunities to optimize all aspects of the turntable.

With approximately 150,000 LP12's having been sold, Linn has an incentive to keep experimenting and improving the LP12. I don't think that any other turntable manufacturer serves such a large installed base and thus has neither the prospective market, nor the resources, to continue to work on their tables as does Linn.

Given that the LP12 is more than 40 years old, there are a lot of LP12's out there in pretty dismal condition. Bearings have been run without oil (lots of them), LP12's have been transported without removing the platter, thus risking damage to both the bearing and suspension. LP12's have been set up in all sorts of suboptimal ways by well-meaning but inexperienced users, thus greatly diminishing the performance people have heard. In short, your mileage may vary.

Getting an LP12 carefully set up by a competent dealer or experienced user will likely provide a very good turntable and, at the highest level (Radikal, Keel, Ekos SE) will provide sound quality rivaling the best turntables. (Linn concedes nothing to any other manufacturer; they claim that the LP12 is the best turntable in the world regardless of price.) At the same time, a damaged table set up poorly that carries a so-so arm and indifferent cartridge can provide a not-so-great listening experience.

I am obviously an LP12 fan. If one intends to listen to a turntable for years into the future, it seems like betting on Linn and the LP12 is a decent idea. With 150,000 LP12's in circulation, there will likely be people out there to support it. Linn is a substantial company with a succession plan already unfolding with Ivor Tiefenbrun's son now running the company. Many smaller turntable manufacturers may not survive as long nor have the economic incentive to support their tables sold in much smaller numbers. Furthermore, an LP12 is likely to be improved upon going forward. Linn has improved the LP12 continuously and, if you believe Linn, will continue to do so.

While I am an LP12 fan, I sympathize with people who have had less than great experiences with LP12's. For reasons I have addressed, they aren't all great. Ivor Tiefenbrun, Linn and LP12 fans have an often well-deserved reputation for arrogance and an unwillingness to acknowledge that other turntables can produce good sound that rivals and may sometimes exceed the LP12. Idler wheel Garrards and Thorens can be terrific if tuned and maintained with a degree of care comparable to that which LP12's need. Direct drives from Technics, VPI and Brinkmann can also produce great results. The LP12 has no monopoly on great sound. But the list of companies who have claimed to have made turntables "better than a Linn" is quite long, far longer than the list of companies who have made the claim and remain in business today.

Great post casaross.  Agree 100% with what you say. The issue today, is that there are far too many people who have a memory of the LP12 that they heard back in the 80's or the 90's or early 00's. These same people still think that is what the table sounds like today. Nothing could be farther from the fact. Even the entry level Magik model,well set-up, can provide a great level of SQ for the money. The top flite LP12 Klimax SE with Radikal D can compete with any TT on the market, IMHO. 

Casaross hit the nail on the head. That said I continue to immensely enjoy my Lp12 which started as an LP12 basic with an RB300 arm and a K9 cartridge. It's "grown up" since then- and it continues to excel, but fair is fair and I recently heard a VPI Prime that also sounded quite excellent too

Thanks daveyf and zavato. My answer to the original question in this thread is, "yes, the LP12 is still in use" despite its 'old design' and the LP12 serves as a "reference." lharasim suggested that current vogue favors idler wheel and direct drive turntables over belt driven designs like the LP12. 

For what it is worth, Thorens introduced a direct drive turntable in 1929. (See "Turntable, Brinkmann Oasis - a white paper" published by Brinkmann Audio Gmbh.) The idler wheel design is quite old, too, but I am uncertain of its first implementation. Suffice it to say that both of these "in vogue" drive designs are not new but rather are enjoying renewed popularity as some people have highly refined the implementations of each. VPI and Brinkmann manufacture fantastic direct drive turntables that significantly advance the state of the art that Technics established in the late 60's for its direct drive tables. Likewise, Chris Thornton and Chris Harban make gorgeous plinths into which restored Thorens and Garrard idler wheel turntables may be installed with excellent results. Art Dudley has written extensively about how to build your own massive plinth to get the best out of a Thorens or Garrard idler wheel table, though Mr. Dudley's plinths do not appear to be so beautifully finished as the Thornton or Harban plinths.

So far as I know, the suspended subchassis belt drive design was the late bloomer here with Edgar Villchur introducing the AR-XA turntable in the early 1960's. Ivor Tiefenbrun introduced the LP12 in 1972 or 1973 using a design similar to the AR but much more refined and with much better sonic results.

Perhaps I did not say this so explicitly in my earlier post but want to say it more emphatically here: The underlying design of a turntable, whether belt, idler wheel or direct drive, whether suspended or suspensionless, matters less than the refinement and implementation of that design. All of these designs offer the possibility of excellent results if the implementations are well engineered and manufactured.

Until the LP12 came along, the common wisdom in audio dictated that turntables did not matter much. All they did was go round and round. Whether you liked the LP12 or not, Linn practically singlehandedly changed the audio industry in establishing the important role played by turntables. 

Linn has refined its design for more than 40 years and the LP12 is a reference, a very high standard reference, by which other turntables may be judged. Many, many LP12's remain in use and, if reasonably cared for and properly set up, provide high quality playback. 

Here is my personal experience, acknowledging that your mileage may vary: My circa 1989 LP12 has been upgraded to the mid-level Akurate build by using the Kore subchassis, Cirkus bearing and Lingo 3 power supply. (I use a Rega RB300 tonearm with a Koetsu Urushi Vermillion cartridge so the turntable is not all-Linn and may not satisfy Linn's requirements to be labeled as an "Akurate.") When compared to my far more expensive Spiral Groove SG1.1 with Triplanar VII uii and Koetsu Urushi Vermillion, the LP12 falls short in terms of bass extension and solidity, it is less quiet and less dynamic. The SG1.1 is more specific in its presentation: it plays more real, recognizable voices and instruments where the LP12 plays notes without the "real" quality that the SG1.1 imparts. The SG1.1 has a deeper and wider soundstage. That said, the LP12 is much less expensive than the SG1.1 and has been upgraded only to the middle level offered by Linn. The Rega RB300 cost less than 10% of what the Triplanar did and the turntable (without arm and cartridge) cost less than 20% of the SG1.1's MSRP. I believe that the RB300 fights well above its weight and can only be bettered if one spends much, much more money.

While the Linn seems to lose on almost every parameter I discuss, it does not lose by all that much. The LP12 sounds great as-is and suggests that a fully-upgraded LP12 might well surpass the SG1.1, though I would not make that judgment until hearing both in my system.

There is nothing new under the sun, at least as far as turntable design is concerned. The LP12 has been relentlessly refined and represents a reference-quality turntable. Depending upon the level to which an LP12 has been upgraded, and so long as it is competently set up, an LP12 can compare with the very best. 

The point is that there's more than one road to vinyl bliss. The LP 12 happens to be the road many of us choose to take