Killing sibilance distortion - VPI & Jubilee

I happened upon this thread and thought I would chime in a few years late. My Black Widow arm and Empire 2000E/III has 'O' sibilance problems. I also tracks like a hound dog on a hot dog. My Denon 301 MKII in the same setup was very good but not the Shure V15 Type III, but was real selective on certain recordings, mostly old well kept but very well played recordings.

This is great thread. Now I feel better. After reading this, I might sell my table and stick to CDs. All in all it comes down to one thing. Cartridge/arm compatibilty and about 15 grand for the front end and phono pre. Maybe the Rega is a good table for the money. Cds are so much easier and they are getting so much better. I was actually thinking the Jubilee sounded pretty good compared to what I encounter when I play that Alison Kraus track. The Jubilee is not cheap either. Geez. What a nightmare. Analog is not for someone with limited funds, that is what I learned today.

Hi All,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences once more!

Doug - a minor clarification, the AT33PTG is actually a MC cartridge. Also, can you clarify in what way you feel the recording with this cart sounds dull and slow? Frankly, other than the sibilance distortion, I strain to hear the differences between these cartridges!

JDaniel - Good to know that the XX2 is a good match with a VPI table!

Iaxelrod - What TT and arm were you using with the Windfeld? Do you find that the Koetsu is not neutral enough, or not dynamic enough?

Hi Goatwuss,

I've had the same issues with a brand new Ortofon Windfeld, and on a totally different TT and arm combination!
I've tried EVERYTHING! like you have - and the distortion did not go away (on almost every LP, towards the inner grooves the distortion reappeared, I thought I was going NUTS!)
Before the Windfeld I've had an AT33PTG - and it was an AMAZING cartridge - but I wanted to upgrade, to "learn" what's out there...
In the end, I've decided to sell the Windfeld so I've bought a Koetsu Rosewood - and I'm totally in LOVE with it! No distortion at all!

Is it possible that your cart is just at its limit during certain passages? I futzed with a Dynavector 20XL (on a VPI Scoutmaster), for a couple of years, (including using the Mint), and it still had tracking problems. While not actually jumping out of the groove, there were certain Lp's--especially passages with high, clanking piano, solo flute/horn, brass--which acquired a "papery" and "thin" sound. I have since purchased a Dynavector XX2 mk2 and even after hastily aligning it with VPI's own jig, I've not been able to make it so much as hiccup. It retains a purity of sound, transparency, roundness of tone, and semblance of air right down to the last inch of groove. I'm profoundly satisfied. I hasten to add the the Dyna 20 XL was a wonderful cart in its own right on about 95% of my collection.

Hi Doug & JC,
I follow this interaction of your ---- and I like to mention what might be know to you and is in some way mentioned.

Take the SAME cart, say a Lyra Dorian and fit it in a REGA 300 arm or say Pro-Ject 9c (carbon tube), switch off the phono pre and listen to what the arm does. You can hear it from meters! away how this mechanical energy is buzzing up these arms.

I put it in my SME V arm (on SME 10 'table), and --- you hear nothing! unless you put your ear VERY close to the tone arm.

It must be ALSO the *resonance* of the arm, right through the spectrum that creates this effect since the energy from the cart would not be able (in my opinion) to produce this effect.

Your comments are most welcome,
Axel

Jonathon,

Thanks for the clarifications and interior details. Very helpful in understanding why it's so difficult to tame problems like the OP's sibilance distortions. The Olympos, Titan and Helikon don't have this problem (on any arm I've heard them on), so we know the problem is solvable. The OP's experiment with an inexpensive MM having a fine stylus proves that's part of a (complex) solution. The fact that it sounds a bit dull and slow in other respects merely demonstates one way an inexpensive MM is not an Olympos, Titan or Helikon!

A minor clarification or two (nothing you don't know, better than I):

Most cartridges are capable of converting the movements of the coils into electrical energy - it isn't an "either/or" choice between electrical or mechanical energy.

1. All cartridges are capable of converting (some) movements of the coils into electrical energy - otherwise we wouldn't use them! ;-)

2. It actually is an either/or choice between electrical or mechanical energy. The energy created by any given stylus deflection cannot be lost. It can only be converted to other forms of energy, or not. Phono cartridges aren't capable of converting that mechanical energy to (say) chemical or nuclear energy, so it's pretty much a zero-sum game between electrical and mechanical (and heat, which from a molecular perspective might still be considered mechanical energy).

You know all that, so if I misunderstood that sentence please feel free to slap me awake.

Hi Doug:

I agree with the overall theme of your post, but regarding the technical details of the "escape of energies at various frequencies from the generator as mechanical energy, rather than being converting into electrical signals", please allow me to clarify and expand.

Most cartridges are capable of converting the movements of the coils into electrical energy - it isn't an "either/or" choice between electrical or mechanical energy.

What actually happens is that while the mechanical energy from the stylus is fully able to drive the coils to generate electrical energy, the mechanical energy doesn't stop there, and keeps going deeper into the cartridge structure. The dampers behind the coils are designed to linearize mechanical resonances of the cantilever/core/coils so that the conversion of mechanical into electrical energy doesn't have any significant frequency-domain errors, but they are not powerful enough to completely burn off the mechanical energy that remains after the electrical conversion process has completed. I typically refer to this as "depleted energy", in the sense of depleted uranium (the stuff has finished its job, but what's left over is still strong enough to create plenty of problems).

The net result is the equivalent of a mechanical echo chamber inside the cartridge - where previous mechanical energy can reflect back and alter how the electrical generation of new signals.

The greater the number of mechanical interfaces in a cartridge, the more likely it is that complex internal reflections will occur, and the more complex those reflections they are, the more it is likely that they will sound not like echos or harmonic distortion, which is acceptable to the ear. but inharmonic or subharmonic distortion, which isn't. Many cartridges that I have looked at contain multiple such interfaces, such as between center yoke and rear yoke, between rear yoke and cartridge body, and sometimes there will even be an inner body and an outer body.

Designing the entire cartridge structure that follows after the coils and dampers as a stiff mechanical diode is a good way to minimize reflections and stop the coils from being corrupted by echo distortion, but since it doesn't alter the total amount of mechanical energy (only redistributes it away from the cartridge), the problem gets transferred to the tonearm. And depending on how well the tonearm is designed, dumping as much mechanical energy as possible into the tonearm (which is what the cartridge wants for optimal performance) may cause various sections of the tonearm to ring, with audible consequences. Pioneer published some articles on the issue of tonearm vibration handling in the 1980s, and came up with a solution that they called a Dynamic Resonance Adapter (DRA).

Whether the tonearm uses DRA technology or other techniques like laminated construction, energy-absorbent stuffing in the armtube, rigid materials that exhibit high internal loss factor et al, the tonearm headshell, armtube and bearing structures should be designed with substantial vibration-handling abilities in mind.

cheers and hth, jonathan carr

Hello Goatwuss,
I'm glad that you 've come to that conclusion. As with what we corresponded through email, if we have carefully set up the combo (put together with educated guess of which might mate well with what) and it doesn't work after readjusting all the known parameters (VTA, VTF, Anti-skating, Azimuth..etc), time to move on and try different combo. I used to think that with more upscale cartridges, they HAVE TO track and sound much better than the cheaper ones (given that they all are possible good match for the arm). Boy ..was I wrong and the AT33PTG I recommended is a living proof, at least in the tracking part.
If this combo doesnt work out well, dont kill yourself over it with nano adjustment..the issue just wont go away. Try different cartridges or arms. It's all synergy.

Best,
Hoa.

By the way, I dont think you are too sensitive with distorted sibilance. It's unacceptable and it annoys the heck out of me too.

Narrod - I actually posted the link at Music Direct on my last entry there. It is a double LP set called "So Long So Wrong," and this is the last track on side 2 of the first record called "Find my way back to your heart"

I doubt that a tonearm's tracking ability has much effect on the distortion levels of sibilants.

Much more important is the way a particular tonearm/cartridge COMBINATION handles stray mechanical energies. (This is what Raul and others mean when they emphazize the importance of arm/cart matching. It's not resonance behavior at 8-11 Hz, it's how the combination handles loose energies at 100, 1,000 or 10KHz, and everywhere in between.)

Every cartridge allows some mix of energies at various frequencies to escape from the generator as mechanical energy, rather than converting them to an electrical signal (which is what it's supposed to do). Those stray energies may reflect off the headshell back into the cartridge, or travel into the headshell and end up lord knows where, maybe reflected back into the cart or elsewhere.

Any stray energies that get back into the cartridge will distort the sound. They're at similar frequencies to the new signal but they're time-delayed, out of phase and probably distorted in waveform shape and amplitude themselves.

At lower frequencies this sounds like mud. At higher frequencies it sounds like fingernails on slate.

***

I don't actually own that AK record, but if someone wanted to mail me one, help me find the software and tell me how to get the signal to a desktop PC that's three rooms away, I'd be happy to post a recording. Might be fun (or embarassing, who knows!).

Goatwuss, which AK? I did we quick look and didn't see the title. Perhaps I missed it. If I have it I will play it and report what I hear.

Hi,

Zhenya, thanks for backing me up on this! Sibilance distortion bloze :-/

To clarify about this particular track, it is a good test for distortion because it has Kraus's sharp S sounds in it, and importantly this particular track is the last on the side in the inner grooves. Tracking records in the inner grooves is MUCH harder than the outer grooves, especially with sibilants.

To clarify about what I heard with the Rega P5/RB700/Benz Ace setup, the sibilance performance was good but still not perfect. I would say it was similar to my results with the jmw9sig arm and the AT33PTG cart. Since my results with a Benz cart better than the Ace were worse than this, maybe I can infer that the RB700 arm tracks better than the JMW9? Or - maybe not, since the brand new Benz carts have a redesigned stylus (Gyger I think), and maybe this accounts for the difference?

Out of several completely different setups that I've heard with this track, I still haven't heard one with no distortion. The main thing that I've learned, and IMO the main take-away of this thread is:

Even if a given table/arm/cartridge is setup perfectly, you cannot assume the sibilance performance will be good. Dial in the setup roughly, double check it, and then listen to sibilant records. If you hear distortion, then it is the limits of the equipment, and no amount of tweaking the setup will fix it.

Tobes, the Jmw9sig has oil damping, and I've tried various levels of oil, from none, to 3/4 full, and I didn't hear any difference.

My challenge to anyone who claims their setup has no sibilance distortion, is to get this record (it's a good record if you like AK), and record and post the track. I would be very interested to hear a recording of this with no sibilance distortion (similar to the digital track that I posted above). To make the recording, all you need to do is plug your turntable into a line-in on your computer, and use the free Audacity software to record.

AK record: http://www.musicdirect.com/product/79215

Zhenya,
I think we can all agree that the amount of sibilance emphasis/distortion is not normal.
While I don't own that particular AKAUS record - I do own the other Mo-Fi 3 LP live set (mastered using the same system) and Kraus' sibilants are nothing like those recordings when played via the Ortofon Jubilee (in the Phantom).
One of the hallmarks of the Jubilee's sound is it's clean tracking and un-accentuated treble.
Since all 3 cartridges exhibit the same problem to varying degrees, it's hard to escape the conclusion that the JMW arm has some tendency to HF tracking instability. Is there any damping adjustment with this arm?

Zhenya, it was just a thought and nothing more based on his comment that the P5 sound really good on the sibilants. I inferred he was still hearing them. Maybe not. It's not worth debating.

To me that sure doesn't sound like run of the mill sibilance - it sounds like some pretty serious distortion that Goatwuss has every right to want to be rid of. I don't agree that he is just sensitive to sibilance and may never find satisfaction with vinyl playback. Something is wrong with his setup or his copy of that record. The only records I have that sound nearly that bad are damaged ones, and they don't get played more than once. If we can't agree that distortion of this level is objectionable (and suggest that members look to digital if they find it as such), why are we wasting our time discussing, ad nauseum, tiny differences orders of magnitude smaller than this?

I have. My point is, even with a perfect setup, some listeners are very sensitive to the distortions in vinyl playback and that he may never get it where it needs to be. I've never had a properly set up front end with sibilance or distortion that wasn't related to the recording. It may be there but I don't hear it.

Narrod, as you've been one of the more active members in this thread I'm sure that you've listened to all of his recordings. Is your last response to indicate that they sound ok to your ears? Because to mine all but the last clip with the AT cartridge (and that one only barely) sound anything but 'hi-fi' or audiophile grade, and makes me think that if that's what's in store for me as I climb the upgrade ladder, I'll stay right where I am thank you very much. I agree with your general premise that everyone has their own preferences and we are all sensitive to different problem points in recorded playback, but I heartily agree with Goatwuss that this is a problem I wouldn't be willing to live with. It'd be interesting to hear the same recording from other member's setups for comparison. I don't own the recording, and am currently a couple thousand miles from my setup, but it'd be great if anyone else could post a comparison.

Goatwuss, you may just be one of those folks that is extremely sensitive to sibilance. Some folks are. Most of us simply don't if the setup is spot on. Unfortunately, you may never find full satisfaction with vinyl playback.

Wendell

I heard a Rega P5 with a Benz Ace today. Sounded really good on the sibilants... RB701 perhaps?

Goatwuss, I would have thought the medium compliance Jubilee (16cu) would be a good match to the JMW9 - at least from a low freq resonance perspective.
Is it possible that the JMW9 doesn't 'like' the heavier weight of the Jubilee (10.5g)?
For reference the Benz L2 weighs 9g and AT33 weighs 6.8g.
Looking at the specs the AT33 would appear to have medium compliance (at 10hz) and low weight, which perhaps works better with the JMW9.

When using the Jubilee in the Graham 1.5T, I always used the heavier counterweight - the Phantom 2 comes stock with a large diameter heavy C/W located close to the pivot - ie designed to work with heavier cartridges. In effective mass terms the 1.5T was supposedly around 11g, and judging by the lowering of fundamental resonance with the HFNRR disc, the Phantom 2 has a somewhat higher effective mass.

If the JMW9 does prefer lighter cartridges, then a ZYX at 5g and 15cu could be a just the ticket. Best to ask Doug, I have no personal experience with the ZYX (though I once owned their grand-daddy the Monster Sigma Genesis).

Hi Tobes,

Thanks for chiming in! It's good to get another opinion on here, even if it's different from mine.

To me, the sibilance distortion on the Jubilee sounds really bad regardless of system. What I've been using for the most part is my Sennheiser HD-650, plugged into Corda Aria amp, plugged into an Auzen Meridian sound card. I hear it the same way in both my 2 channel room (Gallo 3.1, Supratek pre, Wyred amp, heavily treated), and my HT room (Anthem electronics, GR Research sealed box monitors w/ ribbon tweeters)

The Benz is a bit better, and the AT much better than the Benz on the sibilance to my ears. I'm sure different ears, different systems, all plays into this, but for whatever reason sibilance distortion really bugs me.

To me, other than the sibilance, the audio quality sounds really close between the carts. I probably agree with your rankings, but to me the better sibilance handling of the AT far outweighs the other gains that the Jubilee and the Benz carts may have.

Does anyone else have any comments about the cartridge sound quality differences/rankings from these audio clips?

That is interesting that you've found the Jubilee to be your best tracking cartridge. The big variable here is the tonearm. You are using Graham arms, and I am using a JMW9sig. It is completely possible, though as of now not confirmed to me, that the whole problem could be the matching with the tonearm (or just the tonearm itself), as opposed to just the tracking capability of the cartridge. My suspicion is that the Graham arms are much better at tracking than the JMW9sig.

I also wonder if there are any top notch, high end carts that track as well as the AT33PTG. ZYX perhaps, as Doug mentions above?

Hi, Goatwuss, the turntables are mmf-7 with the aluminum Pro-Ject 9 arm. Nothing fancy but they work. The DV-20XL rarely has problems tracking but there are a few recordings that seem to give the cartridge a bit of trouble. The AT33PTG just plays on through. It isn't quite the cartridge that the 20XL is so I don't listen to the 33PTG as often.

Tom

Interesting thread. Love that you've taken the trouble to make the sound clips.

I've listened to the 3 different tracks (via pc - Auzentech Prelude directly into Audio Technica AD900 phones) and to be honest I don't find the sibilance to be that bad, though a bit more than desireable. I can certainly understand how sibilance like this could sound over the top with a 'hot' tweeter and/or untreated room acoustics.

My ranking of the SQ of the cartridges would be:
1. Jubilee
2. Benz
3. AT-33

To me the AT-33 sounds quite bland, the Jubilee sounds much more interesting, resolving and tonally neutral (disclaimer, I'm a Jubilee owner).

I find this thread somewhat perplexing because I've found the Jubilee to be probably the least sibilant cartridge I've owned - and certainly the best tracking.
FWIW, I've used the Jubilee in both a Graham 1.5T and Phantom 2, both on the VPI TNT and setup with MintLp tractor.

Tketcham - That is great that you've also had good results with the AT 33PTG. I would encourage everybody who is encountering sibilance to give this cartridge a try.

The main realization for me is that you can't assume that any given cartridge in any given arm will track cleanly, no matter how precise the setup is.

What turntable and arm are you using?

I started reading through your thread and this last post prompted me to reply. I also own and use a 33PTG cartridge and I've found it to be an amazing tracker. It may not have quite the treble response and clarity or the better tonal balance and bass "slam" of the other cartridge I have setup, a Dynavector DV20XL, but the 33PTG almost never reveals sibilance distortion (if I'm using that term correctly) that I occassionally hear with the 20XL. I actually use the 33PTG to verify whether the distortion I hear from the 20XL is caused by a damaged used LP or is an alignment or tracking problem. (I have identical turntables setup so can easily compare specific components such as cartridges, phono stages, cables, etc.)

I'll be setting up a new turntable and tone arm sometime in the near future (when they arrive) and so will have an opportunity to see if a tone arm upgrade minimizes or eliminates the occassional sibilance distortion I find with the 20XL. I'll try and remember to post my findings.

Tom

Hello,

I apologize for my delay in responding. I have made significant progress towards understanding and solving this problem.

Support from Mike at VPI was excellent, and he re-setup the arm, opting for the Benz L2 instead of the Jubilee. He also installed the 3g weight on the arm.

There is certainly less sibilance from the Benz than from the Jubilee, which you can hear in the above recordings, but unfortunately it still wasn't sounding much cleaner than my prior attempts at setting up the cartridge. Mike suggested that if I am still hearing sibilance, then it is due to the cartridge's limits. (my interpretation is the cartridge's limits in this particular tonearm).

Around this time I was also getting a suggestion via email from a member to try the Audio Technica AT33PTG, with its "micro linear needle" stylus. I picked one up, roughly dialed it in, and gave the track a play to find - it was by far the least amount of sibilance I've heard in this track.

Here is a link to it (compare to the Jubilee and the Benz links above):

Audio Technica AT33PTG playing the track

Still not perfect, but a lot better for sure. This $400 cart sounds to me as good in general as the other much more expensive ones as well. Do you hear any flaws with it? It seems that at least with this arm, price does not correspond with sibilance performance.

What I am now wondering is if a better tracking tonearm is out there, and if so, whether or not it would further get rid of the remaining sibilance distortion.

I just opened this thread..late. I listened to the very song on my VPI rim drive/10.5 with my Benz LP, and have no sibilant problem at all. I agree with Doug that a touch of damping fluid at the pivot might help. I set up my arm very carefully with the VPI and then the MINT protractors and found the MINT gave me better sound. I suspect it is because of the MINT's greater accuracy.

Search for stylus types on www.cartridgedb.com. There are many cartridges to choose from.

You probably appreciate this already, but clearly there's no such thing as a "hot" stylus, at least if that's meant to imply "too hot". That's a logical impossibility.

EVERY playback stylus is less "hot" (sharp) than ANY cutting stylus. If reproducing the path of the sharper cutting stylus is the goal then every playback stylus is too dull by definition. The cartridge, setup and/or other components may be too hot, but never the stylus.

In addition to shimming to achieve more normal VTA/SRA, try increasing VTF a tad. That can sometimes tame a "hot" sounding setup.

Hi Doug,
please would you be able to give us an idea about some other carts that would qualify, having the type of 'hot' stylus as the one I mentioned.

I have to add, that the V15 III with SAS stylus is riding a bit too low for my SME V arm and I'm currently waiting to receive an SME arm shim so I can lower the SRA without lifting the stylus out of the last LP band.
Currently the SAS stylus is *extremely well* resolved but just a bit too hot for my taste, but as I mentioned the only cart this far that will track the sibilants of A.K. side 2, last band of 'so long so wrong.

Greetings,

Agreed. Stylus contact radius is a factor in meeting challenges like this.

You can't accurately trace short wavelength, high amplitude modulations with a stylus that's fatter than the modulations themselves. You also can't do fast laps around the Nurburgring in a tractor-trailer, at least not without whacking some of the pylons and carving up the grass.

One thing to mention: I just had my FIRST cart that would track this dang cut --- a Shure V15 III, B U T with an SAS (after-market) stylus.
My brand new Windfeld still doesn't track those sibilants and neither does ANY of a handful of other MM and MI carts. That SAS stylus seems to be one of THE hottest (sharpest) around, and my current thinking is, that it can only be tracked successfully by this type of stylus. YMMV
Axel

How funny...I have the EXACT SAME problem with the exact same Alison Krauss MFSL LP. I also have a VPI....its a VPI TNT-V Hot Rod with the HRX Dual Motor and HRX Acrylic platter. I'm using a Clearaudio Accurate cartridge. I have the same inner groove distortion problem. My table was setup by Brooks Berdan here in Southern California.

It is very obvious on some LPs and it's pretty much fine on others...so I don't know anymore. I've contacted Clearaudio to get their recommendations about this. So...I'm chasing the same gremlins myself. Hopefully this thread will help as it develops further. I'll definitely post if things improve on my end.

Goatwuss, hopefully this note finds you well and with resolution to you problem.
I recently found a fix to this problem on my TT from an unexpected source. I run a Goldmund Studio with an SME V, a mod, in place of the std. T3 arm. In short, I suspect the supplied SME protractor from my early vintage arm to be incorrect somewhat. Basically a friend loaned me his SME 30/2 with Phanton arm for a month and I noticed how even with a naked eye his arm had a more aggressive alingment angle compared to my setup. So I copied and applied that setup to mine and the problem was gone! Secondly, not sure if you arm is one of those where the tonearm cable comes out on top of the "hub", those are usually "coiled" and the cable gets a bit of tension towards the inner tracks, and it adds to your Anti-Skate as it tries to "uncoil" itself. Not sure if this makes sense to you? Goodluck in your quest!

Thanks Doug,
excellently put across, as far as I go.
So, it might be some more food for though on that tedious subject of "Killing sibilance distortion" :-)

And I will have to find some more 'hidden capacitors' in MY system also.
The funny thing is, the more your system resolves detail, the more distorted sibilance (was that right now?) becomes noticeable too.

I think CD paints over it, due to the lesser resolution and DA conversion process.
A.

Sibilants, according to one source, is (treble) information out-side of the time envelope.

First, lets get our terms straight. "Sibilants" is the plural of "sibilant", which is a word for the sound shared by the letters "s", "sh", "z" and "zh" (in English), plus a few others in other languages. Producing or reproducing sibilants without stridency, distortion or harshness may be challenging, but sibilants don't necessarily include any of those problems. They're just a type of vocal sound.

"Sibilance" is an adjective meaning, "sounding like a sibilant". It too does not necessarily imply unpleasantness, though it’s more often used so. Your source probably meant to write, “Sibilance [distortion] is treble information out-side of the time domain.”

With that I mostly agree. Time-domain errors are the major cause of distorted or harsh sibilants. (Another is exaggerated amplitudes, which leads to stridency.) We’ve discussed speed control of the turntable, slewing distortions in the phono stage (or anywhere in the amplification chain), cartridge overhang, zenith angle and VTA/SRA. All these directly affect reproduction of waveforms in the time-domain.

I also agree that capacitors (in the crossover or elsewhere) affect time-coherency. Anyone who’s done a cap upgrade has probably heard this. It’s impossible for capacitance to occur without a time delay, but the better the cap the less delay there’ll be. Best of all is to eliminate capacitors completely, when feasible.

Another source of high frequency time-domain errors is the insulation of wires in the signal path. If the insulator in contact with a conductor has a significant dielectric quotient it can act as a micro-capacitor for the frequencies it’s in contact with. Now in any electrical conductor it’s the high frequencies (like sibilants in the 8-10kHz region) that travel at or near the surface, ie, near the insulator. Since teflon and other typical insulators are poor conductors (obviously), they induce spurious time delays in those frequencies.

The cure is to use wire that does not put materials in contact with the conductor. Interconnects and speaker cables with an air dielectric (or, theoretically, a vacuum) produce audibly clearer, less distorted highs. (If that sounds like a plug for Nordost it is, because it works.)

The speed and linearity of the tweeter also influences sibilant reproduction. My old B&W Nautilus aluminum tweeters were unforgiving. Everything else in the system had to be perfect or they could split your ears. The new diamond tweeters are faster, more linear and more revealing, but paradoxically more forgiving. They distort so much less that distortions coming to them from elsewhere in the signal path are not exaggerated. A good ribbon tweeter is even better.

The opposite approach, soft dome fabric tweeters, tames sibilants by smoothing each waveform and reducing amplitudes. This is a different kind of time domain distortion, similar to what Koetsu does in cartridges, but if it’s well done it can produce kinder, gentler highs. Not my cup of tea, because at the end of the day it conceals musical information, but it’s an approach used by many very popular speakers.

Hi,
this question is actually directed at Doug, who has had some more extensive exposure in this area.

Changing and by-passing some more caps in my x-over has clearly resulted in a more time-coherent, more on the point, or tighter sound of my speakers.

Sibilants, according to one source, is (treble) information out-side of the time envelope.
So far we looked at ~ **source** only for the solution.
Would you be able to confirm that a x-over might be at least part of the problem here?
Axel

Hi guys,

Jaytea - Yeah, I hear it too. The vocals get harsh when they get loud. I've just kind of assumed it is related to the same issue that's causing the sibilance.

"If you have the entry level version JMW then I believe it lacks the fluid damping well that comes on higher models."

This is actually the JMW9 signature, so it does have the fluid damping.

I'm shipping off my arm, the AK album, and my Benz and Ortofon carts to Mike at VPI for testing today. I'm crossing my fingers that we can come up with some answers!

I owned the original VPI Aries and the first JMW arm with a Benz L0.4. I had no such issues. I would have dumped it if that had been the case.

Wendell

We know its not a bad LP. Goatwuss has stated he gets similar distortions on many LP's. This one is just the example he chose.

If you have the entry level version JMW then I believe it lacks the fluid damping well that comes on higher models.

IME with the Graham 2.2, damping of the bearing is required with some (most) cartridges to avoid distortions of this kind. The JMW (another unstabilized, undamped unipivot) may be similar. The fact that VPI includes damping capabilities on their higher models may confirm this notion.

Just another thought to throw in the mix...

Have you made sure it is not record damage from a cartridge that had mistracked previously? I have older records that were mistracked from days gone by, and they are damaged forever. I verified when I picked up new copies of records that played perfect, but the older ones still distort with the exact same setup and even with different carts. Make sure before you pull your hair out.

I have listened to your tracks over and over, and beside distorted sibilance, i THINK the midrange (voices) sounds a tad harsh/brittle/distorted at times, like inner-groove distortion (since I dont have a copy of this on hand, I dont know if the other tracks at the beginning of the records sound better or not, but I have a few discs from the 70s and 80s sound like this at the end of the record, while other discs show no sign of this inner groove distortion)

Also, the Benz and the Ortofon (which happen to have very similar specs regarding compliance, stylus tip/radius) which you have set up carefully, behave pretty much the same playing this track, I doubt that these distortion is a result of misalignment.

These cartridges have output around 0.3-0.4mV, so they are not overloading your phonostage to create these distortion either

I have a strong feeling that this is just your copy (other's might be OK), or your arm/cartridge prone to innergroove distortion.

It would take a highly resolving cartridge mated with an appropriate arm (doesnt have to be expensive) to conquer these distortions.

My Audio Technica AT33PTG with its tiny stylus tip mounted on a SME 3009 Series 2-non improved is an excellent, excellent example, and so is a Clearaudio Maestro on a Moerch DP-6.

Please keep us updated with the result of your turntable/arm checkup and LP testing on other systems.

I have never had an analog front end that has required me to put up with sibilance. That goes for cheap to very expensive setups. Analog certainly has limits that one must accept. What you are dealing with isn't one of them. Perhaps there is something wrong with your arm. VPI can verify that.

Wendell

"Any dealer who does a setup and leaves it with sibilance isn't much of a dealer or setup expert."

For what it's worth, I agree... though at this stage, I am not convinced that this is setup related. I hope it is, as this means I don't need to spend lots of money to fix it!

What my experience is leading me to believe is that analog equipment, regardless of price, has its limits, and I am running into some of those limits as far as sibilance is concerned.

One other thought. Any dealer who does a setup and leaves it with sibilance isn't much of a dealer or setup expert.

Regards,

Wendell

The pictures don't help me. I think that sending the arm and cartridge to VPI is a good idea. I've owned many arms and cartridges over the last 40 years. In my experience, your problem has always been setup related. That doesn't mean it is in this instance but that's what I would bet.

You might consider sending him all the cartridges so they can check each one they know to be set up correctly.

Good luck.

Wendell

Hi Wendell,

I bought the table new with the Shelter 901 cartridge, and had it professionally setup from my dealer.

There was sibilance distortion, which is why I bought the Benz and the Ortofon carts in the first place.

After I first installed the Benz, I went back to the dealer for them to check setup since I was still getting sibilance distortion. My azimuth was off a bit and they fixed that, but other than that they said setup was spot on.

Did you take a look at the setup pictures above with the Jubilee? I believe they accurately show how I had overhang/zenith/azimuth/VTF setup, but please correct me if it is unclear. The only parameters that I don't have documented by photos are VTA (currently level, but I've tried both tail up and tail down) and anti-skate, which as documented above I've tried various arrangements.

Do you see any glaring setup issues in any of the above photos?

If it is setup related, do you think it is weird that I get the same result with 3 different cartridges, all setup several times over 2 different alignment protractors?

I have actually gone back and forth with Mike, the lead tech at VPI, quite a bit over email. He has graciously recommended that I send him my arm and Jubilee cartridge for him to test. I am going to take him up on this, and see if I can come up with any answers.

I continue to believe your setup is off. I know the Benz cartridge and the arm and they work well together. It is impossible be more precise from a distance. Is there a setup expert anywhere near you? Have you talked with Harry at VPI?

Good luck.

Wendell

New update -

I have installed the Benz L2 cartridge, and checked all setup parameters twice. VTF is set to 2.0g which is the maximum recommended VTF. I am using the Mint tractor for alignment.

Here is a recording of the Benz cart playing the same track:

Benz

As you can hear, the sibilance distortion is clearly there with the Benz cartridge.

A tougher question - other than the sibilance issues, which cartridge sounds better?

Hi Doug,

Yeah. I called ahead of time and explained my situation, and I kind of assumed that he would have a better table hooked up to try this out. I guess I should have clarified that up front. Either way though, we can now cross a P1/cheap ortofon cart off the list. :-)

"I'd be astonished if any Rega TT played these difficult tracks with real clarity."

Can any P5/P7/P9 owners prove Doug wrong?

"The more causes you eliminate, the more likely it becomes that TT speed instability is contributing to the problem."

I guess the way to test this out would be to pickup an SDS. I have no doubt that you are on to something, but at this point I'm a bit hesitant to put more money into the VPI before confirming that the JMW arm can step up to the plate.