Hello Goatwuss,
my man you get 10 out of 10 for your error report!!!!
My broad-band sux, but I know that track like the back of my hand ---- and I share your problem.
A bit of a repeat story, (must have waited for your animated picture story :-)
First thing I note is the over-hang. That Jubilee is 'hanging out of the bus' like crazy! Jubilees as Windfelds and other carts of that construction have a 3 point base on top, your front point must be hanging in their by one Micron, or less!
That just can NOT be right at all!
You are using a MINT protractor, and as I recall it is using some rather different geometry than the original VPI likes to use --- that to me explains that overhang issue.
To bring it more back in line with what I'd expect, is the VPI original idea. I guess this will not change your sibilant issue but it would be my point of departure, YMMV. That cart is mounted wrong, period.
Also as Narrod says:
>>> If you are confident that you have aligned it properly it may be that the geometry of the protractor is simply wrong. <<<
I fully underwrite that statement. So back to basics, that protector is not for THAT arm, can't be if you done all else to spec. as also the stylus to mounting hole distance is pretty close to 'IEC spec.' on those Ortofon carts, i.e. 9.5mm.
Greetings,
Axel |
Hi Goatwuss.
one more thing for you to know here: That track in one of Dougdeacon's **specials** (there are of course some even more critical ones in his arsenal. I have one, SXL 2248).
He says it took him years and $$$$ to get it COMPLETELY sorted,so take courage!
If you get that one right, you'll have climbed one 'analogue mountain' :-)
Axel |
Hi Goatwuss,
1. Mounting Distance, ie pivot to spindle distance is 223mm
2. Effective Length is 240mm
So overhang => 240 - 223 = 17mm.
That looks ABSOLUTLY normal.
My SME-V e.g. has 17.8mm (Ja, ja, DerTonarm will love sat to se 1/10 of se mm :-)
This should suggest to me, that this Jubilee be most all underneath your head-shell ---- and it ain't!
So wei not is se qwesion, ja?
Axel |
Hi Goatwuss
>>> Does this still look to be too far forward in the head shell? <<<
YES!
I'm pretty certain it will be further in with the original VPI alignment.
Next!
Some of these type Ortofons have a propensity for the cantilever going out of centre (slightly) and to the left when viewed from the front.
It means (if the case) that the cart body can actually not be used for your Zenith alignment!
Try to turn the cart if straight = 6:00 to ~ 6:03 i.e. very slightly to the left from the point where the protractor would suggest it to be.
(That's where a Graham and it's alignment jig has far less of a problem, as you can see if the cantilever is slightly off)
Axel |
Hi Johnbrown,
you say...
>>> ... requires you to align zenith via the cantilever-not the cart body <<<
Well, yes I guess by only using the mirror from below, right?
It still can be tricky (that Jubilee's cantilever is tugged in-between two side-cheeks) and ever so often the cart body just happens to 'guide' ones (mis)judgment, YMMV.
Axel |
Goatwuss'
y.s.:
>>> Maybe the headshell on the VPI arm doesn't extend very far? <<<
Must be the case then, not that I like it any much better though :-) sorry. But if that's it, I'll store that in my database.
Next:
"Setting zenith with the MINT" --- that is Azimuth what I see, and it is pretty out in the picture. (Zenith is turning that cart like a dial on a penny)
It looks like the head-shell is closer to the cart on the right?, AND your head-shell/arm is tilted also (bitch to set with that arm, I've seen it). Next thing you play a record, (with or without AS) and it's skew again.
Your call, I say.
Next:
>>>It looks to me like the zenith angle looks good... aligning to the cantilever of course<<<
I can see squat, in fact what I can see, that cantilever is off-set to the right. I mentioned that very thing earlier on, of course the picture may look different than real life...
Take that cart OUT, and look at it straight from the top, maybe make a picture, and be SURE that cantilever is straight down the middle, please. (seen it all before, that's why it's imperative to have the information)
>>> Loading at 100ohms for Jubilee <<<
That's 100% with GCPH, can't do better then that.
(I had both your cart and your phono-pre, plus I had your problem - but not with your VPI rig)
Best,
A. |
Goatwuss
one curious thing to note, and it might tie in with that cart question also.
The best this far I got this track playing was with carts that had a much higher compliance i.e. softer ones, and quoted as around 23cu. The Jubilee as we know is 16cu.
In a similar vain, I had issues with the 'La Boheme' SXL when my Dorian came back from a J.Allaerts re-tip. He decided to make it softer also ~ 24cu as I recall, and it improved (but never perfect, note Dougs mention :-) It got an FGS (Fritz Gyger Special) on boron...
Don't know if that ZYX is of higher cu the 16, if yes, it might help together of course with the stylus profile.
I had a thread a short while ago on "stylus profiles and related distortion" it was pretty much ignored, as there seems this idea: THIS GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH IT... with everyone piling into the last microns of pivot-to-spindle distance until Herr Schroeder added some sanity.
Now I here that Doug found his arm can pass the IGD trick.
Must be Doug's alignment skill, yes :-)
Well, we learn as we go.
Best,
Axel |
Going with Dcstep's suggestion:
what about listening to the Eagles Album: "hell freezes over", side 2, 1st cut, 'tequila sunrise' on Simply Vinyl, S180 VINYL LP.
Might just be we then can talk about OGI (outer groove distortion)also?
I get definitely more sibilants with analogue, when compared to the CD.
(At least you'll get a break from listening to A. Krauss :-)
A. |
Hi Doug,
what is interesting here, that those ZYX carts have 15cu quoted, and Micro-ridge styli.
Correct me if this is wrong.
All these carts (Japanese) quote the cu at 100Hz and that means at least x 1.5 for the 10Hz value, to compare it to the rest.
So the ZYX compliance is then: ~ 22.5 at 10Hz. This would make sense as far as my own findings go with sibilants related to compliance.
The Needledoctor quotes the Jubilee spec:
"Compliance, dynamic, lateral 12 µm/mN" ------
My own old manual states 16 µm/mN!
So take your pick, but it aught to be at 10Hz and therefore a big difference to the ZYX's. |
You guys are killing me with YOUR non-distorted sibilants --- like Daffy Duck :-) |
Hi Todd,
keep it up man! It will be one of the more interesting things to see how it all will end :-)
Axel |
Hi Todd,
very good pictures! Very good set-up! (I hope others will concur).
I guess you have to eliminate the cart as the source of the problem next i.e. put in another one, eish!
Let ME say no more at this point.
Axel
PS: let me know sometime how to paste pics into to this 'post responses', I might have something interesting... |
Brother, Goatwuss,
>>> maybe there is a table/arm/cartridge setup out there that can track this cleanly??? I hope so, and I want to find it!<<<
YES, YES, YES, talk to Doug! Then after a gap talk to Axel,
I got it tracking with a V15 III xMR and it can't be much worse then CD (I guess) actually quite OK, but not 100% perfect., Doug's the man I say.
Also in the meantime, try an MM with at least 22.5cu and a decent stylus/cantilever (Raul mentioned some, yes?)
Good luck,
A.
PS: Just shows you were some dealers are these days --- pushing AV boxes, and clueless (to survive I guess) |
Hi Doug,
please would you be able to give us an idea about some other carts that would qualify, having the type of 'hot' stylus as the one I mentioned.
I have to add, that the V15 III with SAS stylus is riding a bit too low for my SME V arm and I'm currently waiting to receive an SME arm shim so I can lower the SRA without lifting the stylus out of the last LP band.
Currently the SAS stylus is *extremely well* resolved but just a bit too hot for my taste, but as I mentioned the only cart this far that will track the sibilants of A.K. side 2, last band of 'so long so wrong.
Greetings, |
Hi,
this question is actually directed at Doug, who has had some more extensive exposure in this area.
Changing and by-passing some more caps in my x-over has clearly resulted in a more time-coherent, more on the point, or tighter sound of my speakers.
Sibilants, according to one source, is (treble) information out-side of the time envelope.
So far we looked at ~ **source** only for the solution.
Would you be able to confirm that a x-over might be at least part of the problem here?
Axel |
Thanks Doug,
excellently put across, as far as I go.
So, it might be some more food for though on that tedious subject of "Killing sibilance distortion" :-)
And I will have to find some more 'hidden capacitors' in MY system also.
The funny thing is, the more your system resolves detail, the more distorted sibilance (was that right now?) becomes noticeable too.
I think CD paints over it, due to the lesser resolution and DA conversion process.
A. |
One thing to mention: I just had my FIRST cart that would track this dang cut --- a Shure V15 III, B U T with an SAS (after-market) stylus.
My brand new Windfeld still doesn't track those sibilants and neither does ANY of a handful of other MM and MI carts. That SAS stylus seems to be one of THE hottest (sharpest) around, and my current thinking is, that it can only be tracked successfully by this type of stylus. YMMV
Axel |
Hi Doug & JC,
I follow this interaction of your ---- and I like to mention what might be know to you and is in some way mentioned.
Take the SAME cart, say a Lyra Dorian and fit it in a REGA 300 arm or say Pro-Ject 9c (carbon tube), switch off the phono pre and listen to what the arm does. You can hear it from meters! away how this mechanical energy is buzzing up these arms.
I put it in my SME V arm (on SME 10 'table), and --- you hear nothing! unless you put your ear VERY close to the tone arm.
It must be ALSO the *resonance* of the arm, right through the spectrum that creates this effect since the energy from the cart would not be able (in my opinion) to produce this effect.
Your comments are most welcome,
Axel |
