Forgot to mention sealed cabinets such as ATCs may be worth your while for consideration as they integrate more favorably than ported designs in smaller rooms.
KEF blades 2 or Dynaudio C4?
Hi guys, I am trying very soon the Luxman monos M900. I am wondering based on your experience and knowledge which speakers of these two would be a better match for them?
My room 18x12. High ceilings.
I prefer low volume music effortless neutral sound. I had owned KEF 3 and I liked them a lot.
But today I asked three dealers and I got mixed opinions.
I do appreciate your time giving me your opinion. Kind regards.
Thank you.
My room 18x12. High ceilings.
I prefer low volume music effortless neutral sound. I had owned KEF 3 and I liked them a lot.
But today I asked three dealers and I got mixed opinions.
I do appreciate your time giving me your opinion. Kind regards.
Thank you.
150 responses Add your response
Why on earth have you restricted yourself to only these two polar opposites? You've got very different aesthetics being presented. The aluminium the Kef driver is composed of never really goes away as a slightly astringent colouration (despite Kef's claims) & the C4s can easily go too far in the opposite direction. There are plenty of sweet spots between the two for you to consider - that cry out to be. This Magico with an asking (Its the second time on AG & a lower price is certainly obtainable) of almost identical to the retail of the C4 platinum but with no tax, is engineered to a far, far higher level. It was 90 K a decade ago & would be 6 figures plus now if new. > https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9460g-magico-m5-speakers-full-range It's a super & turbocharged version of what Dynaudio would've made with similar drivers if they had a Magico sensibility & cost no object approach. The best reviewer at The Absolute Sound gave it the kind of review no Dynaudio would've received from him > http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/tas-196-magico-m5-loudspeaker/ If you want metal drivers made with far superior materials instead - then Focals latest beryllium tweeters are a clearly superior way to go. Two choices available right now are - https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9461b-focal-maestro-utopia-iii-full-range & for a huger savings - https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis93i6b-focal-sopra-n-2-full-range |
Dear Mr. Feil, Aren’t you the same Bill Feil former proprietor of Audio Feil International? Sound like sour grapes, Mr. Feil as our business is doing well and yours is what terminated? As per others on any Vandy post Mr. Rutan is sure to make his appearance and why shouldn’t he, he is quite knowledgeable about Vandersteens and most people will value his contributions as a dealer who has sold quite a number of that brand of speaker. We on the other hand are one of the very few complete displaying Kef dealers in the country with the Ref 1, 3, 5, Blades, R Series, Q series, LS 50, LS 50 wireless and T series products on active display so you could kind of say we know KEF’s products pretty well. Over the years we have sold Usher, Vivid, Esoteric, Sceana, Polymer, Amphion, Gallo, Mark and Daniel, Elac of Germany, System Audio, Acoustic Zen and a few others before our current line up. As per experience 30 years, countless shows and the widest assortment of audio gear in the New York market, might make you think we kind of know our stuff. All of the above gives us a lot of experience, how many dealers do you know that sell and display most of today’s best digital products or sell many of the brands that people want to check out including the Paradigm Personas, the Legacy line, and the Kef Reference to name a few of our standouts as well as ATC, Quad, Cabasse, Rethem, Elac and a few others. Rost: As per the C4 sounding like ribbon or planer, sorry don’t hear it, sold the Sonus Fabers, including the Extrema, never felt like they had that kind of detail of air, even Dynaudio has recognized the current line C4 is not doing as well compared to their newer product offerings. Based on your comments you fall into the musicality/smooth camp which isn’t a bad thing, the higher resolution designs need to be carefully matched with the right electronics, cabling and source to create the right balance between resolution and musicality. Unfortunately many dealers and at shows these speakers are not setup optimally. Again refer to Peter Brunninger’s AVS Showrooms, mention of not liking the Blades many times he heard them, he did mention the time he was blown away by them was when he heard them setup at the 2012 New York Audio show in our room,. The Muons don’t look anything like the C4. the Muon’s are shaped with an organic tapered hour glass shape from a one piece all aluminum casting, while the C4 look like a box attached to a frame with normal angular box facets Rost we are delighted that you love your Dynaudio speakers, we totally respect the line and do like their products, we just feel that some of the brands we are stocking are more remarkable in some ways than what Dynaudio is offering for the same of for less money than comparable products: The Legacy Focus Signature is extremely musical, has good detail with state of the art Heil AMT tweeters and midrange drivers, and throws a huge sound stage with bass down to 22hz and 92db efficiency in a hand made beautifully finished all wood cabinet, for $7k a pair can you honesty tell me one speaker that offers all of that other than the Tekton’s which are very ugly and boxy and have a much less detailed top end. Or the Pardigm Personas with state of the art pure Beryillium midrange and tweeters and remarkable imaging and clarity with 24 hz in room bass response for $10k a pair. Everyone has their own tastes and ideas of what makes good sound, looks good and fits their needs. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Lastly Mr. Feil if you had what we have on display you would be pretty proud to please refer to our video to get a taste of our shop https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NPIn3pEmI4 https://www.facebook.com/audiodoctor1/photos/a.462046180535267/462046300535255/?type=3&theater https://www.facebook.com/audiodoctor1/photos/a.122499441156611/1774497322623473/?type=3&theater https://www.facebook.com/audiodoctor1/photos/a.122499441156611/1774617332611472/?type=3&theater https://www.facebook.com/audiodoctor1/photos/a.122499441156611/1774441295962409/?type=3&theater https://www.facebook.com/audiodoctor1/photos/a.122499441156611/1884267561646448/?type=3&theater https://www.facebook.com/audiodoctor1/photos/a.813391035400778/1774439705962568/?type=1&theater In comparison can you please post any pictures of your shop so people here can see how well you know about products. Dave and TroyAudio Doctor NJ |
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Ricred1 the issue is with people who attack other people and cast asspertions on their credibility or character, instead of commenting on the subject which is loudspeakers, and for that the moderators should have stepped in. Mr Feils number of homes isnt relevant to the disscussion what we sell is as it demonstrates experience with these very same products. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Hi @mountainsong , I've tried to read most of the replies here but it got too frustrating having to sift through the egocentric replies to find a few genuinely helpful ones... Let me try to be helpful. I own both Dynaudio C1 mark 2 and Kef LS50 Wireless so I have some idea of the two brand's sonic signature. I absolutely love the Kefs for what they are; small active speakers with a sound stage that's hard to beat. I've set them up out in the open one day and they delivered a soundstage so large and deep it had me drop my jaw. On soundstage alone they better the much more expensive Dynaudios. So if you like the Reference 3's sonic signature I reckon the Kefs will be the way to go for you. What I don't love about the Kefs is that tweeter. As someone else wrote before, it can be a bit in your face. That's with the LS50W though. The Blades might be different. The Dynaudios love power. I went from a Devialet 200 (200 Watt into 6 Ohm) to a Devialet Original d' Atelier (900 Watt into 6 Ohm) and the difference the extra power makes is quite noticeable at lower volumes. Ever since I heard the C1's for the first time, I wanted to hear the C4's with the possibility to use them in my new, larger living room. Unfortunately I've never heard them with the right amplification. That's because I've never properly asked for an audition from a dealer. I don't want to waste their time unless I'm ready to buy. They always lacked bass when I listened to them. I have heard the C2's with proper power in front of them and that confirmed to me that the C4's must be capable of delivering the right sound with the right power; The C2's sounded great. The Luxmans you're looking at deliver 600 Watt at 8 Ohm. Plenty for the Dynaudios to deliver their best at low volumes so you're covered there. My best guess for the difference between the two would rely on what it is you're looking for. If you're looking for mesmerising soundstage, the Kefs will be hard to beat. If you're looking for a sound you can listen to for hours without fatigue, the Dynaudios will probably be better. I do believe though, that the speakers are too different to chose from without a listen in your room and on your amplifiers. I'm not ready to go out and buy new speakers but when I am I will be looking in the same price range as you. And when that day comes, the first ones I will go and have a listen to is Vivid's new Kaya range. I don't like the look but if they're anywhere near as good as the Giya G3's I listened to a few years back, they will beat the Kefs and Dynaudios hands down. Happy hunting, Pim |
Mountainsong there is no rivalery between our company and Mr Feil. Mr Feil is not in the industry any more and is clearly retired. His outragous behavior should be censored. We are experts on Kef because we stock nearly everything they make. Mr Feil had an invisible little store in upstate New York. When asked to show proof on anypoint he turns to insults and brags about having three homes. We do love our brands and can answer and assist anyone. You have our sincere apologies that there are people who are petty on this forum. We wish you only the best, Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
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i will just say when i heard both the Dynaudio and KEF they were driven by multi tens of thousands of front end gear. I can only presume the presenters took due diligence to ensure equipment synergy. Again, i didn't like the blades at that price point. Others on the otherhand love. @audiotroy i am contemplating dynaudio countour 20s. what other brands do you recommend? Do these other brands require a sub. i prefer not to use sub based on integration difficulty. |
Mindless, just because two systems were setup with expensive equipment, doesn’t mean that there was synergy. When we were starting with the Blades we had Parasound JC 1 Monoblocks, Electrocompaniet AW 400 Monoblocks, Hegel stereo amp, Chord Monoblocks non reference and then reference monos from Chord, we also experimented with a very well known Ncore amp. None these combos sounded truly amazing until we went with a pair of the big Chord amps, which were $30k, although the smaller stereo Chord an $8k amp and the smaller Chord $15k monos did sound superb, the size of the image, the nearly limitless sense of power and punch and of course really deep tuneful bass didn't really manifest itself until the big mono blocks showed up and if you noticed the Parasound and Electrcompaniet amplifiers were both 400 watts into 8Ohms and 800 watts or so into a 4 ohm load, so it wasn't a case of power the more expensive amplifier just sounded far superior. With that being said the resulting $150k total system sounded as good as a $400k one which makes the Blades a bargain when compared to a $110k pair of YG or Wilson speakers. Today we would pair the Blades up with a T+A HV 3000 an $18k integrated which sounds about 70% as good as a $50k stack of electronics or the T+A 2500R an $11k integrated which also sounds amazing. One of the most remarkable compact monitors we have ever heard is the Legacy Calibre which basically has a built in sub woofer, and hits very hard in the bass, $5,500.00 a pair plus stands. The Calibre has a very wide sound stage, and has a lovely combination of a very smooth German sourced Heil AMT tweeter with a custom made exotic Italian mid range driver. In addition you can add a Wavelet a $5k dac,preamp, room correction processor and electronic crossover and then you would just need a good amp for the top end. One of our clients just ordered a pair of the Calibres https://legacyaudio.com/products/view/calibre/ His pair was ordered with a set of built in amps which makes the speakers $6,800.00, then at any time you could progress to add a Wavelet and any amplifier you want for the top end for a very cool bi-ampable system which would then have a very good dac and room correction.Legacy was showcasing this system at the New York Audio show and it was absolutely extraordinary how close the sound was to a much more expensive system. The ATC SCM 40 is a fantastic compact floor stander which also has great punch and dynamics, $7,000.00 a pair. The ATC have a very natural sound in the mid range frequencies and is clean without being bright in the top end, they also image very well. The new Dynaudio Contour series is supposed to be fabulous we have not hear them but the two speakers above would be our recommendations if you are looking for warmth, bass depth, sound staging, dynamics in an under $10k price point. Dave and TroyAudio Doctor NJ |
@mofojo That 10 year period represents only a very small percentage of my life’s income which included 35 years in corporate America. Factor in salaries, 401K, IRA, stock options, bonuses, pensions, and social security it’s not all that difficult to own 3 properties given you begin saving early and manage your investments wisely. Hope that helps. |
I liked my KEF reference 3 flat uncolored sound with sparkling cymbals I also own the LS50 wireless and I tend to enjoy KEF big sound. I know many good speakers out there. I currently Dyna's special 40 and triangle deltas so I certainly can sense different sonic signatures plus AZ crescendos. Regards |
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Matthew it was great having you in my shop, and it was another client that blew up a set of Uni Q drivers on a set of Ref 5 that are now our display pair and appreciate you comments,"
And in real life, that fella is a prince. I enjoy his posts and appreciate his advice.
" It is nice to now that some people here who actually work with me and visit my store gets to understand that we really do know our stuff. The Kef Reference line and the Blades are pretty amazing and lifelike sounding speakers if you drive them correctly. Dave and TroyAudio Doctor NJ |
"From Audiotroy Wcfeil, we really don't care that tatyana69 bought a pair of B&W 800d3 good for him if he liked them it is his money. Do you think that a pair of KEF Blades or B&W 800D3 or Focal Sopra 3 or any super high end $20-35k set of loudspeaker is going to sound its best being driven by a: $3,000.00 integrated amp and $300 speaker cables? " Is Audiotroy suggesting the dealer gave me an inappropriate demo? It seems so. Excuse me ... I am quite capable of listening to different speakers with different kit and making my conclusion that the Kef Blades are quite (very) inferior to the B&W800d3s (IMHO) for the very specific reasons I have given in my earlier post. |
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No Tatanya you are missing the point entirely. Over the holiday weekend I visited a dealer in another state that has a major on line presence and I had heard they did a lot of business so I had to check out their store. They had two sound rooms. with one being an open area with a shelf which has some monitors on it and some not too expensive amp. Their main sound room was a crammed mess, with no room to properly demonstrate expensive speakers, the setup of electronics and sources wasn’t too good either even though they has some very good brands of gear on display, there was no forethought into what they would connect to drive the speakers. I heard the Paradigm Personas 3F and 5F in this room and both speakers sounded good but not amazing in any way, while in our shop, the speakers sound outstanding. We demo with only one pair of speakers on deck, use $3k speaker cables, use all high end power cables, usb, and interconnects, run all gear on power conditioning and have some light room tuning this is in our medium sound room, in our Reference room we are using state of the art gear, cabling in a room 26 by 20. Unless you take out all the variables in demoing it is hard to know what is doing what, so your choice of B&W over KEF might have been as much to do as what you heard both speakers on. As with anything else personal taste comes down to it. Dave and TroyAudio Doctor NJ |
No Mr. Feil, it is called professional courtesy. We are not going to directly insult a fellow dealer, for the way they conduct their demos, however, we can mention that their setups would color the way someone who is going to hear their product and that demo may or not be up to snuff. As we have discussed previously many of the large companies, B&W, Paradigm, Martin Logan, will put on dealers that can move product or are larger custom installation houses, vs the smaller companies who tend to favor smaller more focused audio only dealers. As per bigly comes to mind, we don't know if that is a compliment or a dis. Bigly yeah we have one of the largest and most diverse collections of high end gear on the East Coast: We have 4 demo rooms, from starter to reference, including a full Home Theater. On display we have 4 $20k-$35k Reference loudpeakers, 1: the Kef Blades, 2: the Legacy Aeris, 3: Dali Epicon 8, and 4:Paradigm Persona 9H, most dealers will have one or two pairs in this price range. as well as ATC, Elac, Rethem, Dali, Kef Reference line, R series, Q series, Quad, Cabasse and others. We have some of the best equipment on display: Electronics from T+A to the tune of $50k, Naim Classic electronics stack NAC 272, NAP 300DR, XPS DR at $30k, Electrcompaniet AW 400 amps and EC preamp, Manley Steelhead phonostage/preamp and Snapper power amps, CJ ART Mono blocks and ET 5 preamp $50k stack, the Anthem STR amp and preamp, Micromega, Nuprime. Rega, Cary Audio, Sythesis audio from Italy, Unison Research and many others.. Digital from: Lumin, Aurender, Naim, T+A, Light Harmonic, Baetis, NAD, Mytek, Anthem and many others. Turntables from Rega, Merrill Wiliams and Nottingham. https://www.stereophile.com/content/audio-doctor-searching-best-everything OLD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NPIn3pEmI4 much newer https://www.facebook.com/audiodoctor1/photos/pb.122499304489958.-2207520000.1536419253./188427020831... https://www.facebook.com/audiodoctor1/photos/pb.122499304489958.-2207520000.1536419253./188426939164... https://www.facebook.com/audiodoctor1/photos/pb.122499304489958.-2207520000.1536419253./179611708379... https://www.facebook.com/audiodoctor1/photos/pb.122499304489958.-2207520000.1536419253./177461733261... https://www.facebook.com/audiodoctor1/photos/pb.122499304489958.-2207520000.1536419253./177444129596... https://www.facebook.com/audiodoctor1/photos/pb.122499304489958.-2207520000.1536419253./177443970596... https://www.facebook.com/audiodoctor1/photos/pb.122499304489958.-2207520000.1536419253./138072913200... Bigly yes we think so also so does most of the people who have visited Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
No Mr. Feil, it wasn't. Said dealer doesn't post on these forums, said dealer is selling millions of dollars of gear and we spoke to them they realized that their display isn't great either and in fact we made recommendations to them on what they can do better. We don't have an issue with this company and so we don't want to have one with them we both sell some of the same products and they are very nice people with a terrific business model, they are 75% internet sales, we are 90% walk in sales with 10% internet. Most of the time during these discussions the client or poster mentions where they heard the product. As per being a professional we are. Our reputation, Google and Yelp reviews, brands carries, and the response of people who have visited our store and bought products tell our story. Your childish behavior and antipathy towards us as well as your bragging about how many homes you have has nothing to do with audio and it demonstrates your character. Mr. Feil, please stick to the subject at hand loudspeakers. Thank you. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Lalin, my homes are settled business. It’s irrelevant now, get over it. You like Jersey City? That’s fine, I really don’t care. Anyway to the point, you publicly criticized another dealer and his component arrangement. That would be all fine and dandy if we knew the dealer and/or he had a chance to respond to your opinions. If he doesn’t post here, identify him otherwise nothing you’ve claimed is believable. Basically it’s poppycock without verification. Lastly, who’s to decide if the setup sounds good or bad? You? Not arbitrarily and certainly not without substantiation from independent listeners. Believe it or not you are not an audioracle (remember that moniker audioracle? That’s the moniker you used on Audiogon for years pushing your lines without disclosing your dealer status) Perhaps the dealer believes his arrangement his optimal but that’s for him to decide, not you. You simply don’t like being called out Lalin, it bruises your oversized ego. Stop whining. |
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