Baez elicits the very same reaction in me, goatwuss. Perhaps she was classically trained?
Rhiannon Giddens is a highly respected artist who started out singing opera but switched to Roots styles. To my ear, her singing sounds exceedingly stilted. Is it coincidental that she was heavily influenced by early folkies such as Baez and Pete Seeger? |
Bob, you're talking to people 16 years in the past, lol. But, welcome aboard!
|
I agree with you. That vibrato is horrible. Ludicrous. Inexplicable.
I guess it was
I'm a violist, so I know a thing or two about vibrato. Her vibrato sounds like she's using one of those old-time "weight loss" belts that were moved by an electric motor (Back in the forties or so; you'd see commercials for these contraptions with some model who had this rubber belt about six inches wide wrapped around her waist, and at each end it was attached to a motor. As the motor rotated, the belt would be pulled from one side and then the other. Sorry if you didn't need that explanation). Like she's in a car going down a VERY bumpy road.
I am offended by it! Which is totally irrational. I react as if she exaggerated that vibrato on purpose. As if, with all that protest music, she had included an extra ingredient. Now protest THIS! Joan and I will never reconcile on this; there's no way I can not hear that voice bouncing around.
Personally, I would have felt that anyone who responded to that complaint with, "You should listen to X or Y CD" had missed the mark. They're trying to be helpful but ignoring the complaint out of hand. They don't care about the excess vibrato; they just need to not let anyone not like an artist they have some personal preference for. Bless their little hearts!
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>>At least we have Air America to keep us informed about no matter how much everything is going well it really isn't.<<
You bet and all 10 listeners depend on them for the truth. |
Wc65mustang, it's not just France, it's the entire E.U.! "Bush Bashers" [regarding economic issues] should compare GDP, CPI, unemployment, worker productivity, projected economic growth, and taxes of the American and the E.U. economies. I'm a registered Republican, but I do not agree with many of the President's policies. But try to form opinions from facts not tainted by rabid emotions and political posturing. Far too often, BOTH parties engage in Machiavellian tactics! |
>>Yeah you really have to hate this low inflation, great housing market, low mortgage rates, good stock market, and low consumer prices. Yup, it sucks or maybe you were thinking of France?<<
Maybe inlation has been low for a record amount of time, and yeah more people own houses then ever in the history of America, and yes mortgage rates have continued at record lows, the stock market keeps rising and not because of some dot com ponzi scheme like in the '90s, and yes consumer prices have taken a record drop. But, the state of the union still sucks compared to France, Germany, Italy, etc. We only have 5% unemployment, which is essentially full employment which means we all go to work. That sucks, at least in France they get to b**ch about the world while sipping coffee and waiting for the government to take care of all their needs. And in Italy young men are smart enough to stay home and let their mommies take care of them. And Germany, well so what if their economy is near collapse, just don't screw with the summer vacation. At least we have Air America to keep us informed about no matter how much everything is going well it really isn't. |
Wc65Mustang, exactly, I've been trying to save enough money to leave France but given the poor economy & lack of gainful employment it has been tough. Can't wait to return to the USA where inflation is low & jobs are plentiful. Good deal. |
>>Personally the current state of the union sucks........<<
Yeah you really have to hate this low inflation, great housing market, low mortgage rates, good stock market, and low consumer prices. Yup, it sucks or maybe you were thinking of France? |
I like her, no I don't like her, whats the point? Yes she made her debut during a time of political upheaval & the music held a great deal of meaning to a generation that time has past by. Now Joan will be judged on her merits as an artist, good bad or otherwise by a new generation. Deal with it. Personally the current state of the union sucks, job insecurity, high gas prices, & mistrust of of elected officials, maybe once again these old artists will give give meaning to an uncertain world, who knows. |
Amusing to hear Goatwuss take from the other side of 50. It makes me re-examine my early impressions of Joanie. When I hark back to memories of her singing 'Sad Eyed Lady of the Lowlands', or 'Ride Me High', I don't remember vibrato, and certainly not thinness (yes I know, Goatwuss, you didn't suggest thinness).
My impressions are all of warm rich tones; a revelation in their day. Remember, we were just coming off The Weavers' bouncy, earnest, dustbowl version of folksong, with female vocals tuned like a bagpipe, all nasal Anglo-Celtic skirl. I'll have to go dig out Baez Sings Dylan - was the vibrato really there all along?
I suspect, as J.D. offers, that you had to be there.
Nowadays; over-sharing, over-warbling... |
Thank you for that link, Fatparrot. I had no idea that she was still so active in humanitarian causes - and it looks as if I am missing more albums than I realized, too!
Holly |
Here's an interesting chronological biography about Joan |
I have almost every album that Joan Baez has made and had the privilege of seeing/hearing her in concert many years ago. I think her voice is wonderful and have great admiration for her courage and convictions "back in the day." I grew up in the 50s and 60s, during the folk revival. I like Bob Dylan's voice too. One of my favorite albums by Joan Baez was the one where she did all Bob Dylan songs.
But, each to her or his own. No one should be forced to listen to music that makes them wince!
Holly |
Sorry, Goat-boy, I guess it was someone else who said thin and hard. Two qualities I would NEVER assign to Joan Baez. |
Swampwalker - Yeah, for sure the game goes for Neil Young. I like him, but if someone told me they found his voice unlistenable I'd understand why.
And no, it's not my gear ( :
My issue with her is not "thin-ness," it's that vibrato. |
Goatwuss- I guess you could say the same thing about Neil Young (can't really sing in conventional terms, but great songs and effective emotional communication). I for one like Baez' and Dylan's singing, but then I am one of those 60s headcases. Crystaline purity always does it for me. If she sounds thin, maybe its your gear ;~). And don't judge her by the present, she is not probably (gasp) 60+ and has had problems with her voice over the years. Her new Cd of duets with newer female singers is excellent, IMO. Obviously, YMMV. |
Swamp and Fish, in case you hadn't heard, Joanie is Lesbianese, and her relationship with Dylan, and marriage to Harris (I forget his first name just now) were, as far as anyone knows, platonic.
And for those of you who have apparently never listened to enough Dylan to actually hear him sing, I suggest Lay Lady Lay, or all of Blood on the Tracks and Slow Train Comin, just to name two albums. Perhaps, you have also not realized the man is not a songwriter, but a poet who sings (remember Leonard Cohen?) -- which is why only the bravest souls have tried to cover any of his material, usually with little success.
Bob Dylan has the most on-the-nose timing and delivery of any blues singer ever, from Muddy Waters on down, as any musician will tell you. Not only that, but he has perfect pitch and the most accomplished guitar technique of anyone according to none other than Johnny Cash (read Johnny's liner notes on the back of the Nashville Skyline album.)
Really you guys!! |
swampthing,
I believe you're right on the Baez - Dylan thing. Joan discussed it briefly in the PBS special on Dylan. Sounds like she's still scratching her head wondering what happened.
Goat...some folks like rap & electro-synthpop hiptronica & I can't for the life of me imagine why..to each their own. |
Swampster -
The point that I was trying to make, perhaps ineffectively, was that even though Bob Dylan can't sing, he can't sing in a manner that doesn't bug me. In other words, it works for him. From what I've heard of Joan Baez so far, it doesn't work for her, as her voice is unlistenable.
Only my opinion of course, always subject to changing. Feel free to disagree with it. |
Goatboy- I am having a hard time understanding the difference between your take on B. Dylan "the main appeal of Bob Dylan is what he has to say" and J. Baez "popularity (past and present) stems moreso from her political messages communicated through her music than the actual music itself."
BTW, you and the other youngsters in the bunch may be interested to know that as far as I remember (great quote about remembering the 60s) Joan and Bob were lovers several lives ago. |
Wow
I was out for the weekend, and haven't seen any responses to this until now. Thanks for all the insight and discussion!
So it seems as though most of Joan Baez's popularity (past and present) stems moreso from her political messages communicated through her music than the actual music itself.
This is fine, though from my perspective in order for any messages to be communicated to me the tools have to be crafted well enough to not be abrasive to my senses and to my musical values.
The point comparing Joan to Bob Dylan was effective for me. I personally love Bob Dylan. Of course the main appeal of Bob Dylan is what he has to say. I feel as though Dylan is more a poet than a musician, and that he used music as a tool to communicate his poetry. I feel he did this effectively. Clearly his voice is not amazing, but it works for me. My girlfriend thinks he's terrible. Case in point.
In any case, I will sample some of the other Joan Baez music that some of you recommended to see if it more to my taste. I'll also try listening to my "In Concert" record again with some of the knowledge I've gathered from this thread to see if it grows on me. Otherwise, you'll be seeing an "only played once" NM copy of Joan Baez "In Concert" on the A'gon.
Merry Christmas |
JAdem6,
It was the quality of her voice that was in question. It's either your cup of tea or it isn't. I don't know what that has to do with the "politics" of the 60s. |
Has anyone heard National Lampoon's "Radio Dinner" LP? Joan Baez is parodied, and you could piss your pants...it's just TOO funny! |
Rja,
I read this thread as a question Joan Baez-Do I just not get it?
My response to Joan's existence as a singer needed to be put into context. Joan symbolizes the very essence of the '60's turmoil. Separating the two in my mind is not possible.
I admit I later brought up politics as it related to PC. If that amount of discussion regarding the times we live in offended you, sorry. Perhaps you need to look at that. I will out of respect for your sensitivity no longer look into this thread.
Thanks to the others on this thread for a fun discussion, but I guess it's too much.
bye
jd |
The late 60's to me was the staging ground for the idea that if you had a degree for a job which didn't have unlimited employment oppourtunities you created them. In city, county,
Educational and government workplaces jobs were created so people could ply their trades. Jobs from Real Estate to Pyschiatry were now being paid for by tax payers and this is why we have to keep paying more taxes and getting less results for our tax dollar.
Any way Diamonds and Rust is my favorite Joan Baez album and I have seen some 180 gram Vanguard Superlab pressings of her early work out there. |
Nsgarch,
I'm really not too sure about the changes. My point was that the discussion somehow turned to politics instead of music. No problem here about liking or disliking Joan Baez or trying out some of her music. Good discussion material. I guess I'm just sensative to the politics. One of the reasons I enjoy Audiogon is the (near) absence of it.
As far as Joans voice, it's crystal clear AND powerful and probably difficult to record. When she first started as a folk singer she probably sang in small clubs either through a mike and tube amp or with no electronics at all. As far as vibrato, have you heard Buffy St. Marie? Cheers! |
Rja, you are (somewhat) right. To restate (24 year old) Goatwuss's inquiry: After listening to his first Baez album, he was, to say the least, underwhelmed with the sound of her voice -- which is all she really has to offer, since she's not a songwriter.
I think most of us simply tried to direct him to those recordings that best exemplify the qualities that made her so popular from the start.
If he seeks out a couple of those suggested recordings and remains unimpressed, he's certainly earned my respect as a serious music lover regardless.
Long hair and flat tops do remain == it's what's under them that has changed :~)) |
Blah, blah, blah. Somebody doesn't like Joan Baez. No problem, to each his own, turns into a protracted discussion about the 60s. Don't forget there were people with flat tops in the 60s, definitely a lot more than long hairs. There was good music and bad music just like any other era. |
Nsgarch,
While one would hope the alternative energy sources would be popping up I'll have to admit "the best in people" comment was more tongue in cheek(i.e. realistic). We'll see alternative energy applications on the expensive fringes until the oil-cow has been milked for all it's worth & only then will we magically see alternative energies coming out of the woodwork....and guess who will be selling them to you? (hint..where does energy come from today?)
All that being said..I still think John Baez has aged very well. :-) |
Fishboat, I hope by "bring out the best in people" you are referring to the creative use of alternative energy sources?
JD, I'd be happy to chat about architecture. Best if you'll email me separately, I think.
Neil |
Fishboat - Granted that being a celeb today is just a function of hype, but don't get carried away about the 60's regarding talent- as jadem mentions - Bobby Sherman? How 'bout John Denver? - true talents for sure right? There's plently more where that came from.
The foundations of PC were laid in the 60's. "Everything is beautiful in it's own way, everybody's wonderful, everybody's beautiful, the only reason a person is a loser is because he didn't get all the breaks" and on and on ad nauseum" - it's morphed into what we're seeing today.
How knowing what the generation was about by the year you were born is a fairly absurd way to define the apparent legitimacy of a viewpoint, gee, maybe there's other factors at play NSgarch, like family social structure, education perspectives, peer groups etc. Probably couldn't be right? - guess you have to be an architect to understand sociology eh?
Thanks for your suggestions Fishboat. Hopefully they'll be more useful than your opinions. |
Jadem6, that is heavy but true. I especially agree with you that our Government is so concerned about what minority may be offended that the majority no longer have a voice. |
Nsgarch, MIT Architecture school? As a fellow Architect I am fully intimidated and completely humbled. That must have been quite a great experience!!!
I then had to go look at your system, Now I feel jealous, I'm not enjoying this morning, we do need to talk however...
Snow-man, you are a friend and as you know, I now live my skiing adventures through you. It was great hearing from you on your vacation plans this winter and I hope you plan on keeping me informed.
Having said that, I do disagree with you on PC of the '60's and '70's. I think riots in the poorest neighborhoods of our nation, riots and killings on our collage campuses, finally exposing the corruption of the Presidential Office and even sit-ins in the Junior High Schools do not qualify as political correct behavior.
Now if you feel the peace, love and Bobby Sherman attitude was PC, I think you missed the point. I do not read Imagine (John Lennon) as political correctness, I read it as love and respect for our fellow man. Sadly this lasted until the hippies got to stoned as to not remember what their cause was. This generation was so close to realizing the truth that it makes me sad to see how far we (human race) has fallen.
Political correctness is no scary halloween customs at the schools, supporting the troops no matter how crazy the reasoning. Calling minorities by the absolute correct name, but not questioning the fairness of their existence. Political correctness is sending vast amounts of money to African charities so we can believe we are doing all we can to help the poorest nations, when actually we have simply turn our backs, "Yes it's tragic, but what more can I do? I already send $$$." Hell, if you need proof of the effects of PC, look at congress, they have not moved in eight years of fear of alienating some group, despite what the masses have asked for. Our nation is no longer a Democracy, it's a forum for the super minority. One atheist complains about the pledge of allegiance in our schools and the entire Government stops to investigate, while thousands of our youth are underfunded by mandated programs that Congress has not gotten around to funding. Is this really what the majority has asked for?
PC states my comments here are not allowed, and as a life long battler of the establishment, I am saddened to see how even you my friend has lost sight of the truth.
BTW, if my complete and honest admiration of MIT Architecture school and my comments above sound like a contradiction, they are not. I must have respect for anyone who worked that hard for a title that I got without any schooling. I chose a thirteen years of experience out of High school rather than "the establishment" and their rules. This got me to the very top of my profession by the age of 35, and I made $$$ every year along the way. PC would dictate people like me not be allowed. Funny thing, 15 years ago the politically correct leaders of Architects made my route no longer available.
The '60's and '70's were a time when anything was possible, and all voices could be heard. Today the only route is the establishments route. No longer is your voice heard if it disagrees, now the protests, if even allowed to gather are forced to gather out of the reach of cameras. And the peace, love and Bobby Sherman? Could we as a nation be any further away???
PC, don't get me started!!!!
jd |
Every time Joan joined Dylan on stage she ruined whatever song they were singing together. Everytime. |
Nsgarch,
It took real talent to be a star back then...as opposed to today where 'talent' is defined how much hype you can muster. Oil won't run out in your lifetime, but the price it'll sell for will bring out the best in people..which will be a show in itself.
Sonofun,
I might suggest less coffee & maybe cut your red meat intake in half. |
Snofun, what it means is that your 12 year old son has great taste in music. What it dosen't mean is that he would be able to relate to the mind boggling cultural sea change one experienced growing up in the 60's. Especially after graduating high school in say 1959! For him, or anyone born after 1945, it's really all hearsay isn't it? -- reports of reports of reports, mostly (now) by people who were not there either.
The 60's youth were nothing if not "in your face", and as far as we were concerned, the only "correct" thing was to change all politics. And being peace-loving (touchy-feelie as you put it) never kept us from speaking our minds. Unfortunately the media has now put most of the kids to sleep. Only 30% of current college graduates show proficient reading skills. Yada, yada.
Nope, I don't think you'll find much evidence of the 60s vision in our current culture. We've gone (or been led) down a different road -- it's called consumerism. And it won't end now until the oil runs out. . . . . . and at the rate things are going, if I take real good care of myself, I just might live to see it -- wouldn't THAT be a trip?!
As for Joanie, she had an undeniably great voice; and that's what sold records, not her politics or her songwriting. If she was just starting out today, she'd be the darling of some niche market label, just like Jacintha, but not the star she was then. |
When did relative age have anything to do with anything. My 12 year-old loves Frank Zappa, so that means what? He isn't supposed to have an opinion because he's a couple of generations removed? Huh?
I was exposed to Joan Baez well before I was 10 by some unthoughtful siblings, and that means what?
PC start was in the 60's for gosh sakes. It's when everyone got touchy feely about everything and became so concerned with offending anyone in any fashion yada, yada, yada.
You can find instances where the great unwashed acted in an unseemly fashion - the 60's weren't unique. |
First of all, if you're 50, J.B. is not of your generation, she's of the one before (same as Dylan who just turned 64.)
Second, there was no such thing as "PC" in the 60's. Gosh, we even shamed our returning vets. How PC was that!! Thank God, now that we're in Vietnam II and realize we've "been fooled again," at least we're not taking it out on our troops.
Back to Joanie. Most of you probably don't remember when she won a libel suit against the cartoonist Al Capp (creator of Li'l Abner) for placing a raven-haired folk singer in his comic strip named "Little Joanie Phony." As for her voice, I can attest to what Eldartford and Eddaytona said. Steve Kuyamjian, a fellow MIT architecture student, was teaching her to play guitar, and we'd often go to hear her sing at Club 47 Mount Auburn, in Cambridge. Her voice was truly a natural wonder, the material was innocent and ageless. Find some of those early Vanguard LPs, it will be very worth your while. They leave "Diamonds and Rust" in the dust! |
Sorry about my latenite mixup!MT10425,,,,LOL,,thanks for bailing me out!Ray |
Snofun3,
Maybe you should change your handle to "no fun". How do you really feel? You no like? Then you no listen! What's a matter you? |
No one is as bad as Kris Kristofferson. He has the vocal range of a door buzzer. |
By coincidence, recently finished reading an old paperbook copy of Joan Baez autobiography, And A Voice To Sing With, which was a surprisingly unpretentious (and, hilariously funny, in spots) telling of her earlier life story.
Her take on the early Bob Dylon is up close and personal, a limited part of her story.
What went on in a performer's personal life was well hidden in the good old days, before People magazine and paparrazzi (?spelling). |
I think this is why I hate opera - oh - and Mariah Cary.
I know she can hold a note - so why won't she........just stop warbling like a maniac and sing girl!!!!
I agree Goaty...a point well made. |
Joan Baez, Yoko Ono, Mrs. Miller [remember her?], and Tiny Tim and all sound about the same to my ears! |
>>Bob Dylan's next<<
Yes Dylan's voice is quite rugged now. It was, however, much better in the 60's and 70's. That being said he is unquestionably the single most important pop songwriter of the last 50 years. |
stay away from Joan and try Joni (Court and Spark, Hissing.. and Heijira are all excellent
if you like singer songwriters of that era go for Laura Nyro - fabulous stuff Angel in the Dark and Looms Desire are wonderful recordings
Tom |
I agree with Eddaytona - my wife and I saw her live last year in San Francisco, and the show was excellent. She was great - better than she's ever been, and the band was great. I went mostly because my wife likes her, and I was expecting to yawn through the old school solo acoustic pieces, but mostly it was uptempo rockin' ensemble stuff. She also has a very good stage presence - and the solo pieces she did were very good. It was one of the better shows I've seen and I would definitely go again tomorrow.
As far as her recorded stuff - there's a lot of it and it's not all superb, "Joan Baez In Concert" is NOT a favorite.
I'd say to get an idea of what people see in her:
Diamonds and Rust on Nautilus is probably the best sonically.
If I had to pick only one that's available on CD, it'd have to be "The First Ten Years" - a compilation of her best (up to 1970).
And if you have a vinyl rig then it's, "GOLDEN HOUR PRESENTS JOAN BAEZ" which was a 1976 compilation issued only in UK (pye Records) I believe - but it's available. Here's the track list from that because it contains what I'd say are many of her "must haves":
It Ain't Me, Babe (B. Dylan)
Black Is The Color (J. J. Niles)
The Last Thing On My Mind (T. Paxton)
Help Me Make It Through The Night (K. Kristofferson)
Farewell, Angelina (B. Dylan)
Bachianas Brasilieras No. 5 Aria (H. Villa-Lobos)
The Lady Came From Baltimore (T. Hardin)
It's All Over Now, Baby Blue (B. Dylan)
Hush Little Baby (traditional)
We Shall Overcome (G. Carawan, Hamilton, Z. Horton, P. Seeger)
There But For Fortune (P. Ochs)
Plaisir D'Amour (traditional)
Babe I'm Gonna Leave You (A. Bredon, Smith)
The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down (J. R. Robertson)
Don't Think Twice, It's Alright (B. Dylan)
Long Black Veil (M. Wilkin, D. Dill)
A Hard Rain's A-Gonna Fall (B. Dylan) |
The only album that ever won me over to her was "Diamonds and Rust" otherwise I agree with you and grew up in the 60's. By the way that album, like Carol King's "Tapestry" and Joni Mitchel's "Blue" were written either about or after breakups with a serious lover/affair. Sure made good music though. |
Gregm, I had no idea that Judas Priest did a version of this song, never heard that one but I bet it would be interesting to hear.
Music is like stepping into a time machine, I don't think there is another media that can transport you so effectively & quickly to a another place and time. For better or worse this is one of Music's greatest draws. |
Goatwuss, it happens! I am a huge Clifford Brown, and Louis Armstrong fanatic. Yet past "Kind of Blue", I just can't get into Miles Davis. I guess that's why Baskin Robbins offers 34 ice cream flavors. So I wouldn't sweat Joan Baez. |
