Please consider this an addendum to my "last" post. My comments about not continuing to post about the music stand, but I feel that some other recent comments should be addressed in order to help clarify my position. Moreover, my vacillation between "leave well enough alone" and "go ahead and try and clarify" was decided by Acman3's most recent post, which points to what, for me, is one of the main issues.
I have suggested on several occasions that we should "dig deeper" in our views about the music and not base so much purely on "subjective" reaction, but try to have more of a balance between the subjective and the objective. This, as a way to help keep a more open mind about jazz, any music, and art in general; and, as a way to understand something that is key and is one of the things at the core of what the practitioners of any art form value: a more inclusive, open-minded view of art and the principle that art doesn't stand still and that, like it or not, there is good art at any point in history. While it may strike some as grandiose or even self-serving to keep trying to drive that point home, the irony of the chasm (as concerns this point) between the mindset of many listeners and practically all practitioners is too great to ignore. As Alexatpos points out, sometimes the realization comes slowly. As has also been pointed out there are times when it's best to leave well enough alone, because to continue to drive certain points home can serve to only sink matters deeper into resistance to the idea.
What I meant by alluding to Acman3's post is this; and I hope that, if anything, this is the "take-away" of this most recent exchange of comments which will hopefully serve to help participants have better and more focused "conversations" without so much diversion into arguments:
One of the main obstacles in these discussions has been a lack of focus clarity in the way that ideas are presented. I realize that this format is limiting and everyone has different writing styles; but, I just don't feel that enough effort is put into being clear and succinct with commentary and not enough "follow-through" with ideas proposed. I think this causes a certain confusion. Examples:
O-10, if there has been any "misinterpretation" of your comments by me (I don't believe there has been), where has the clarification been? I have asked specific questions, wether it be about the supposed "filler" on current recordings or about your comments about the supposed lack of relationship between European Classical and Jazz and there has been no response. Additionally, in your most recent post you make a comment that suggests that you based your comment about "filler" on one (!!) recent record purchase. If that is the case (I suspect not), is that really reason enough to make a general comment about new artists' recordings? Rok would call my need for clarification as creating a "strawman"; I don't think so. I think that there is a tendency to let the less than open-minded attitude to creep into the style of the discussions as well as our views of the music. Comments are made that buttress one's point of view and are then held as a type of gospel without being willing to "follow-through" and explain, or really discuss. As I said, Acman3's post was what prompted me to make this "addendum" because it is a great example of what I mean and I had the same reaction as he did:
Concensus? Really?? Seems to me that on this thread there is anything but a concensus about the relevance of "old vs new" music; certainly not, if one does the math re the number of participants who hold each point of view. I would say it's pretty much split down the middle. I will admit that now, in my absence, Acman3, Chazro, Mapman, and others may be at a "disadvantage" as concerns the numbers :-) I make light of it, but it should not be about advantage or disadvantage. Rok often points to the "intent" expressed in the OP. Fair enough, but it should be remembered that the OP also intends to "review" and, as such, comments purporting to be authoritative should be accompanied by substantiation; or, in its absence, a willingness to be open to, and truly consider, the comments of those offering subtantiation. I truly do hope the thread thrives and I hope my comments, which will inevitably be construed as self-serving or arrogant by some, are meant to encourage a better platform for the sharing and discussion of the greatness of the music. In my view, this thread, as interesting as it has been so far, has only scratched the surface of that greatness and all that there is to know and love about it.
Best to all and good listening. |
Yiippeee!!! I won the "how long will he stay away" betting pool. I selected less than 24 hours!! My prize? I won all, and I mean ALL, of the OP's Kenny G collection.
A suggestion to The Frogman, if I may be so bold.
You should submit music that you like, tell us why you like it. Daily. In English. From a pro's perspective. Examples of, sort ot thing. You seldom do this. Mostly, you react to, and comment on what others post. If you did this, communication would be greatly improved.
Keeping in mind, telling us that a piece is great or not great, does not mean we will agree. I am still pissed over the short shrift given the Bey sisters. An absolute outrage!
Welcome Back.
Cheers |
Rok, in the process of looking for my favorite recordings on the "Windham Hill" label, I discovered that "Shadowfax" disbanded in 1995. The group formed in 1972 and disbanded after 1995 when Lyricon player and leader Chuck Greenberg died of a heart attack. Having lost their signature sound, Shadowfax's members went on to other projects. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv1YtAjgKzo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQY0rA5W574I have both of these albums. I must have acquired them about the time I began to diverge from exclusively buying albums that fell under the "jazz" genre. When it comes to current music I disregard genre altogether, meaning I just listen and let it happen. If the music resonates with my inner self, I buy it, if not, I leave it lay. I think that's about as "subjective" as I can get. Frogman, could you explain how, and in what way: Mapman, Acman and Chazro are at a disadvantage? Enjoy the music. |
Rok, I may never stop laughing over your win of all my "Kenny G." collection.
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O-10:
Shadowfax:
Excellent!! Enjoyed them both. I vaguely remember the name, but I don't own any of their stuff on CD.
This is legitimate music. If these cuts are representative of the entire CDs, I will look them up on Amazon.
I still don't understand the apparent need for visuals. These tunes stand on their own merit.
Re your Kenny G collection: What size U-Haul truck will I need?
Thanks for the Shadowfax clips.
Cheers |
"New Age", now there's a genre we have not touched on at all. I stumbled on this when I began buying music without knowing or caring what the genre was; that's after I got fed up with all the "fusion". Andreas Vollenweider caught my attention in a big way; he looked so "Cherubic", behind that big harp, and he even sounded it. After catching him live, I was really hooked on his music. He was at a big opera house that was seated to capacity, which was an indication I wasn't the only person hooked on Andreas's music. We had a mezzanine seat that put us right in the middle; it was like being in the middle of a gigantic speaker. I had two pair of binoculars so I could see the whole group or focus on any one musician; the percussionist for example had more chimes, gongs, and ancient drums than I could name. Andreas even had two harps and a koto (that's a Japanese harp that lays flat). Every musician in the band had more than one instrument. Here are the musicians: Andreas Vollenweider: Harp Christoph Stiefel: Keyboards, Synthesizers Pedro Haldemann: Bells Walter Keiser: Drums Jon Otis: Percussion Max Laesser: Strings (Arranged the Silver Symphony Orchestra and Choir) Matthias Ziegler: Woodwinds Here is "Dancing With The Lion" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEtu9ZJtE0M&list=RDFEtu9ZJtE0M#t=115"Down To The Moon" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me6aASTOglEEnjoy the music. |
O-10:
Andreas Vollenweider:
Both tunes nice and catchy. Both could have been played on regular Jazz instruments. I guess the ideal was to be other worldly. Nothing as common and earthly as a Tenor Sax. I liked his harp playing, in spite of myself. :)
Worth noting that their first performance was at a 'Jazz' festival. When they can't classify it, they throw it in with the Jazz music.
Your list of player credits, failed to give credit to the guy on Water!!
Nice atmospheric stuff. I consider it purposely manufactured. Since they call it "New Age", I can't complain about folks calling it Jazz.
Cheers |
Today's Listen: Jacky Terrasson -- REACH Great hype surrounded Terrasson when he first appeared on the scene. I will have to check out his latest efforts. Lots of live youtubes available. He 'pulverizes' the keyboard, sort of like Chucho. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eK0VS7mFJwo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btDHv7hI_Cs Interesting notes by Mark Levinson concerning the recording techniques used to record this album. Blue Note Cello-recorded series. Levinson is President of Cello LTD. First I have heard of it. The recorded sound is excellent. Cheers |
Although I've had "Down To The Moon" since it came out, seeing it performed took me back in time; I can even remember the shirt I had on when we went to see Andreas.
One pair of binoculars fit in my wife's purse (they do come in handy from time to time) and I carried the big one's around my neck; I was prepared to capture every moment, I saw what you saw. While listening to the music is nice, it doesn't compare to watching the musicians produce the music while you're listening.
During those 39 minutes I was transported back to a virtual reality when I was considerably younger. Frogman, that's another "Reality" you can add to those we've accumulated so far; it's called "Virtual Reality".
Enjoy the music.
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You guys kill me. Being a long time jazz lover I have followed this thread with interest for some time and the recent exchanges between Frogman and Rok2id and Orpheus prompted me to make my first post on a thread. It's really amazing how small minded some people can be. In my opinion, Frogman's posts have been a model of clarity and honest attempt to bring some credibility to the thread instead of the confused jumping around with opinions that have little basis in fact done by Rok2id and Orpheus all the while hiding behind "subjective opinion". You guys think new jazz is not worth talking about and now you move on to New Age!? Are you kidding me! I don't think the reason for the arguments is just a difference of opinion about music but a difference in level of intellect. Rok2id, your sarcasm and ridiculous attempts at "reviews" and playlists are almost embarrasing to read. Your most recent post says it all and just like many of your comments about music. You mention Levinson and Cello as if it's a new discovery that you are trying to enlighten with without realizing that it's common knowledge. I completely understand Frogman's frustration and think that it's a shame if he stops posting because his posts have been some of the best reading on this forum. This thread could have been something special instead some of you guys keep it at just music masturbation. |
Rok, although the sound quality was excellent, there are so many better options, that I would pass on Jacky.
Getting back to the real deal, I've been focusing on the instrumentalist backing Dinah; Clark Terry and Clifford got in a trumpet duel of sorts without missing a beat and backing Dinah at the same time. I bought that album primarily to hear stuff like this and I didn't get cheated; every note is a winner.
Enjoy the music.
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Ramonron, why don't you and Frogman have a conversation to start things off.
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Ramonron, long time jazz lover who never posted on this jazz thread, but now you voice a complaint echoing Frogman's complaint. You two guys are a match made in heaven, I'm eagerly awaiting your new thread; but if you didn't post on this one for over two years, I really don't think you have much to offer.
Maybe Frogman wont be so frustrated after you and he specify precisely what this new thread is going to be about; could it be "Watch another thread for over two years, and then complain when they don't write what you want". Frogman and Ramonron, that sounds like a dance team, I'm sure you'll make a good couple.
Enjoy your new thread.
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****You guys kill me.****
If only this were true.
****I have followed this thread with interest for some time **
Then, stop following it.. Problem solved.
**In my opinion, Frogman's posts have been a model of clarity ***
Is this opinion based on facts?
**nstead of the confused jumping around with opinions that have little basis in fact done by Rok2id and Orpheus***
Are you accusing the OP of a thread of being 'confused', as to it's direction?
**You guys think new jazz is not worth talking about and now you move on to New Age!?***
We think new Jazz is not worth talking about, and the OP can move on to whatever he wishes. What's your point?
**I don't think the reason for the arguments is just a difference of opinion about music but a difference in level of intellect.***
Believe me when I say, you don't have a clue as to what the arguments on this thread are really about. However, feel free to raise the intellectual level with posts of your own. We won't hold your first one against you.
**Rok2id, your sarcasm and ridiculous attempts at "reviews" and playlists are almost embarrasing to read. **
Then, don't read them. BTW, I don't pretend to 'review' anything. 'Today's listen' means, I have this CD, and I listened to it today. I always say a few words and provide a clip of the music so others can judge for themselves. This is the INTENT of this thread.
***You mention Levinson and Cello as if it's a new discovery that you are trying to enlighten with without realizing that it's common knowledge.***
I mentioned the Levison thingy because it took up so much space in the notes. I said I have never heard of it. How do you conclude that, I think I am reporting 'breaking news'? I think the recording date was 1995. Another 'strawman' specialist? Your 'audiophile' traits are showing. :)
***I completely understand Frogman's frustration and think that it's a shame if he stops posting because his posts have been some of the best reading on this forum. ****
Is this an opinion or a fact? I, along with all music/Jazz lovers, look forward to reading YOUR contributions on Frogman's thread.
***This thread could have been something special instead some of you guys keep it at just music masturbation.****
WTF is music masturbation?? hahahhaha You so witty.
Lastly, In my 'opinion', the OP has forgotten more about Jazz, than The Frogman will ever know. I am Speaking of Jazz-Jazz, not noise-Jazz.
I look forward to your contributions. I know they will be of an Intellect-Raising quality.
Cheers
Just a thought: Could this be The Frogman posting under a different name???
hahahahahaha
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Rok, while perusing a "Mosaic" catalog, I discovered something worth considering, "Charles Mingus - The Jazz Workshop Concerts 1964 -65"; this is considered an epic masterpiece. While you may have it in bits and pieces, I don't think I have it. This includes Town Hall, Amsterdam, Monterey 64, Monterey 65, and Minneapolis; 7 CD's $119.
In Mingus's Jazz Workshop the exploration never stopped. Rehearsals could go for days. His music looked back to all the history of jazz. The music ranges from his interpretations of Ellington, to tributes to his musicians, ("Praying With Eric).
The musicians: Jaki Byard, Piano; Johnny Coles, trumpet; Lonnie Hillyer, trumpet; Eric Dolphy, alto, plus bass clarinet and flute; Charles McPherson, alto; and last but not least "Dannie Richmond", drums. A man of style and precision, immaculately dressed, he perfected the art of folding and packing his flawless wardrobe inside a small suitcase. He died in 1988 in a hotel in New York en route to join the Mingus Dynasty band in Europe. He was 56 years old, the same age at which Mingus died.
You probably know more about these particular concerts than I do; do you buy the complete edition for $119, or get bits and pieces for less, that is the question? It depends on whether or not you got $119 as loose change. One thing is for certain, no one got more out of musicians than Mingus, even the one's you weren't too particular about sounded good.
Enjoy the music.
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O-10:
Dead Can Dance:
AWESOME! Some of these things work better than others. Wonderful music. The visuals were outstanding, and with such vivid colors!! A really good match of sounds and visuals. Is there a name for this type of art?
BTW, your opinion of Jacky Terrasson seems to be the prevailing opinion on several online sites. I guess he goes back on the shelf, right next to the Bey sisters. :(
Cheers |
Ramonron:
Nice clips. I don't consider 1972 to be 'New-Jazz'. These clips fit right into the mainstream of what's normally posted on this thread. I was looking forward to your commentary. You didn't say anything.
After all that build-up about intellectual levels, I expected more insight. Here I was, sitting here, almost overcome with anticipation, stenographer's pad and pencil at the ready, and what do we get? Nothing. What's up with that?
Cheers |
FYI:
The Polk 50% off sale ends tonight at midnight Pacific Time. Not a bad deal, esp on the LSIM705 / 707.
If you tell them you are an Audiophile, they will keep your purchase confidential. Ship in plain brown box.
Cheers |
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O-10:
The only question I would have would be the sound quality. All live performances, in 1964-65. But, Mosaic does have a reputation for excellence. It will be as good as it can be.
I am not sure you can still get all the individual concerts on seperate CDs. Of the ones listed as part of the set, I only have 'Town Hall'. If you just brought all his 5 star stuff, you could still go broke!! But when you consider the packaging, and the booklets, with the photos, I think it's worth the money. It's more of an 'investment' than any piece of audio gear.
I never quibble about cost when it comes to buying music. Now gear, that's another question.
I was looking at this very offer the other day, when I found the Beethoveen Sonata article. I have always wanted to buy something from Mosaic, but in most cases I did have most of the material on seperate CDs, but not in this case. And this is MINGUS! I listened to the samples on the Mosaic site. I think I will get it.
I will rationalize this way: I have a lot more than $119 tied up in CDs that I hate, and never listen to. Convinces me every time! :)
Cheers |
Although I would very much enjoy a live performance by the "Dregs", new fusion is not something I'm currently adding. I appreciate your unique contributions, they're always interesting, keep em coming.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, are you going to let "Ramondo" AKA "Frogman" affect your play list review?
If it was good enough for your audience during the life of this thread, why should you care what Ramondo, Ramonron, or anyone else thinks? I missed it today.
Enjoy the music.
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Todays' Listen: Charles Mingus -- TOWN HALL CONCERT Only two tracks, 'So Long Eric' and 'Praying With Eric'. Total playing Time 45 minutes. Mingus is one of the few artists that can maintain a listeners interest in tunes of 27 and 17 minutes in duration. Both were great. Dolphy's Flute and Bass Clarinet playing was just awesome on 'praying with eric'. Some consider Mingus' music to be 'out there', but the rhythm section is never 'out there'. They always keep it all coherent. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JP2XFKGKlAwThe liner notes consist of a scathing attack, by Mingus, on greed and corruption in the music recording business. Mingus does not minch words. Very angry young man. I wonder if any of these guys ever made the money they should have made. This is one of the CDs in the Mingus Mosaic box set. Yeah, it's worth $119. Got my New speakers today. :) Cheers |
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****Rok, are you going to let "Ramondo" AKA "Frogman" affect your play list review?*****
Yeah right. Your post is just out of sequence. I have already posted Mingus.
Cheers |
Thanks for the compliment Orifice10 but sorry to disappoint you. I think I have a pretty good ear for jazz and a good bs sensor but I not much talent for writing about it. Just a post here and there if you behave. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PBHWgtemaGk |
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Rok, I call this "Bobby Timmons" jazz, it's just that unique; relaxed, soothing, and uncomplicated, but yet it reaches the depths of one's soul.
"Moanin" needs no words, the music communicates that low as you can go feeling, and there is nothing left to do but "Moan".
Keep em coming.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, when you heard Pee Wee Marquette on a record, you knew to get ready for some of the best jazz you had ever heard, and maybe that was the best "Jazz Messenger" group ever.
One can never have too many "Dat Dare's" or "Nica's Dreams"; now we know why one can never have too many "Nica's Dreams".
I'm sure you'll enjoy the music better than ever with your new Polk speakers.
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O-10:
I have both of the MJQ CDs. The Swingle Singers disc I don't like. It's one of the type of discs I will use to justify buying the Mingus Box Set. :) It was a nice try, but no cigar. Not very good Jazz or Classical. Or at least it was not interesting enough.
Now I will have to revisit my 'Blues on Bach' album by MJQ to see if they fared any better there, with the classical tyhingy.
'Concorde' is owned by everyone calling themselves a Jazz lover. The MJQ creates a sound you never get tired of hearing. They play Exquisite Jazz, and 'softly as in a morning sunrise' is typical. They also look and act the part.
What's not to like??
I remember a guy from NYC I knew in college, introducing me to MJQ, and what he called 'Third Stream' Jazz. I don't think that worked out.
Cheers |
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"Nica's Dream" composed by Horace Silver is my favorite tune, and this "messenger's" version is my favorite; but first, let me tell you a little bit about "Nica". Kathleen Annie Pannonica de Koenigswarter was a British-born jazz patroness and writer. She was a leading patron of bebop music. In New York, de Koenigswarter became a friend and patron of many prominent jazz musicians, hosting jam sessions in her hotel suite, and lending them her chauffeur and Rolls Royce when they needed a lift to performances. She is sometimes referred to as the "bebop baroness" or "jazz baroness" because of her patronage of Thelonious Monk and Charlie Parker among others. Following Parker's death in her Stanhope rooms in 1955, de Koenigswarter was asked to leave by the hotel management; she re-located to the Bolivar Hotel at 230 Central Park West, a building commemorated in Thelonious Monk's 1956 tune "Ba-lue Bolivar Ba-lues-are". She was introduced to Thelonious Monk by jazz pianist/composer Mary Lou Williams in Paris while attending the "Salon du Jazz 1954", and championed his work in the USA, writing the liner notes for his 1962 Columbia album Criss-Cross, and even took criminal responsibility when she and Monk were charged with marijuana possession by the police. After Monk ended his public performances in the mid-1970s he retired to de Koenigswarter's house in Weehawken, New Jersey, where he died in 1982. There are numerous compositions in her honour. Gigi Gryce's "Nica's Tempo", Sonny Clark's "Nica", Horace Silver's "Nica's Dream", Kenny Dorham's "To Nica", Kenny Drew's "Blues for Nica", Freddie Redd's "Nica Steps Out", Barry Harris's "Inca", Tommy Flanagan's "Thelonica" and Thelonious Monk's "Pannonica" were all named after her. Here is by far my favorite version of "Nicas's Dream", I can feel it in my bones. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Lju13U1zEEEnjoy the music. |
Rok, I agree on the singers; while I like the MJQ in general, on occasion they have gotten too moody and introspective, those are the LP's that didn't get turned into CD's.
Enjoy the music.
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Acman, on Brad Mehldau; too moody and introspective, nice music but "moody and introspective" is not my cup of tea presently. This is not a case of "New" vs "Old", even if it was by an old artist like Miles for example, I still wouldn't like it. Presently, I don't care for Miles slow ballads.
Enjoy the music.
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O-10-,Those 2 recordings were my examples of 3rd stream Jazz. It still lives. |
Acman, would you call "The Swingle Singers" third stream?
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*****After Monk ended his public performances in the mid-1970s he retired to de Koenigswarter's house in Weehawken, New Jersey.*******
Along with Nellie.
Cheers |
*****I call this "Bobby Timmons" jazz, it's just that unique; relaxed, soothing, and uncomplicated, but yet it reaches the depths of one's soul.******
Perfect description. I was searching for the word 'uncomplicated'.
Cheers |
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