I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Frogman, it's delight to have you on this thread, not only are you a jazz aficionado, but you're a musician as well. Although I never thought about West Coast from a musical perspective (the softer tone) that's quite accurate.
West coast jazz had a relatively short life span. Although the musicians lived on, West Coast was dead after 65, while the very same musicians evolved into other forms of jazz. The very best jazz from this genre would be in the 50's. This means that although you have the same West Coast musicians after the 50's, they may, or may not still be playing "West Coast" jazz.
I was just about to post with the same point as you wrote about in your last post.
There seems to be an AGENDA going on here to make all Jazz players equal. IOW, just as you pointed out in your post. Miles played Jazz trumpet, so did Chet Baker, so they are the same right? Wrong! Hell, I can play a trumpet! The so-called 'cool' thingy is the equal of be-bop!! Brubeck equal to Silver, Peterson, Powell COMBINED!! It goes on and on.
When I said Jazz has to be defended, everyone said I was nuts. This is the type thing i meant.
No one ever says Beethoven and Philip Glass are equal.
But in Jazz, everyone and everything is fair game. Make them 'equal' today, and the 'best' tomorrow. But as we say in Texas, 'That Dog Won't Hunt'
Jazzcourier, excellent post; thank you. I do take exception with your description of Art Pepper's influences. I hear more Lee Konitz in his playing than Parker.
Rok and others, re Parker. I don't want to speak for Orpheus10, but I believe that what he meant, and I agree with, is the simple fact that Parker's influence was pervasive and almost impossible for players to avoid. No one, certainly not I, is saying that Bird had TOO MUCH influence; that would be a ridiculous comment. So lets not get on a tangent about this.
Now, for the punch line of my post: Concerning Art Pepper's influences (surprise!), and his feelings about Bird in general (which supports what I believe Orpheus is saying), "straight from the horse's mouth":
I remember a talk show program long ago where some caller said bird was over rated and given too much credit. He felt that Paul Desmond was a better alto player and deserved equal status.Now if he likes Desmond more that's perfectly fine and his opinion. To lmply that Desmond had the same stature,impact and contribution is insane! Regards,
Rok, I agree with your stance on Charlie Parker.To say he had too much influence is baffling and bizarre. Miles in his autobiography said bird's talent and genuine extraordinary creatively affected not only the sax players but all musicians regardless of the instrument. Miles said an entire generation was simply in awe of the astonishing playing and standard he established. I understand that some just don't care for bird (that's ok) but his Iimpact and legacy is unquestionable. Regards,
I listened to 'Charlie Parker with Strings: The Master Takes' Bird was in fine form. Good experience overall. The sound quality of the recording was much better than most Bird recordings. I didn't see the need for the strings, and I think they took away rather than added to the performance. True Genius does not need gimmicks! One reviewer said "there is a lot of Jazz, but only one bird" so true.
Charlie Parker has / had too much influence on Jazz. Surely you, O-10 & Frogman, Jest!!!
(1) Bach, Beethoven, Brahms and Mozart had / have too much influence on European Classical Music.
(2) Sir Issac Newton had too much influence on Mathematics
(3) Eienstein had too much influence on Physics and Astro-physics.
(4) Charlie Parker had /has too much influence on Jazz.
All of the above statements are EQUALLY true. Or EQUALLY non-sense!
West Coast Jazz, is a term used to describe players that played on the west coast in the so-called 'cool' style.
Why the West Coast you might ask. Answer: Because all of the greats played on the East coast. Better to rule in hell, than serve in heaven.
You cannot make a silk purse folks. They weren't good enough to play with the big boys, so they ran west. If the top be-bop players had been on the west coast also, 'Cool' Jazz would have arisen in Nebraska! Mediocrity cannot survive in the presence and / or immediate vicinity of genius! So it was 'Go West Young Wanna-be'
I leave for a few hours and you people are already off the reservation!!
Lee Konitz is often associated with the "West Coast Jazz" school,while this is wrong geographically it is correct as as far as his influence on many of the players in the early 50's.One mentions his influence on Art Pepper,very minor,the big influence on Pepper was Benny Carter and Charlie Parker.Pepper was a member of the Stan Kenton band before Konitz and it was the Kenton band that brought Konitz to the West.Kenton was based in Southern California and drew the players from this area.Konitz was offered a job with Kenton,in i believe 1950-1 and approached his teacher and mentor Lennie Tristano about this decision to join a coomerecial big band.Tristano was adamant about Konitz not going with Kenton,concerned with the "commerciality" of Kenton's music,not to mention Lennie did not want to lose his best student.Konitz' decision to join Kenton caused a multi-year astrangement from the Tristano circle.During this time,the early 50's Konitz won magazine polls and became internationally well known,travelling to Europe with Kenton and making records there.His solos on the Kenton records became very popular among saxophonists.Otherwords,this choice to go with Kenton was a major pivot in Konitz' career. He ended up in L.A. in the early 50's and "sat in" with the Gerry Mulligan/Chet Baker group,of course he knew Mulligan from the Birth of the cool bands and before that,the Claude Thornhill orchestra.It is these recordings that seem to tie Konitz to the "West Coast" school. Certainly these early 50's Lee Konitz recordings can't be praised enough,as noted above,this was a rare departure from the Bird's overwhelming influence,and it was more than a deaparture,it was a fully formed and totally distinct approach to the saxophone.As Warne Marsh used to say"The YOUNG Lee Konitz was a beautiful thing" and that is very true. The whole "West Coast" Jazz moniker has always been a confusing one.Lots of the remaining Big bands were centered in L.A. and this brought lots of musicians to the area,notably Kenton and Woody Herman.The scene evolved almost a good ten years after the birth of Be-Bop in New York and the lack of actual Jazz club work called for more "woodsheding" and rehearsal groups...Jimmy Giuffre,Chico Hamilton,Bob Brookmeyer.There was more experimintation without commercial scrutiny.Interesting,that many of these musicians had to return to New York to work and let these ideas breathe.Mingus was a good example of this,although a few years earlier.Dolphy,Giuffre,Brookmeyer,Jim Hall and others gravitated back to New York to make the music that was born in garages in L.A. bY 1954 Lee Konitz was finished with Kenton and ready himself to return to New York to start the next chapter of his music.His association with the West Coast school of Jazz,such as it was,well behind him.
Acman3, Lee Konitz is one of the greatest of the West Coast players and an influence on Art Pepper and Paul Desmond. He is the alto player on the Birth Of The Cool sessions even though Sonny Stitt was the original choice and Evans decided that Stitt's sound was too steeped in be-bop (Charlie Parker) and they wanted a "cooler" sound. Glad you mentioned him, this record belongs on my favorites list, and is highly recommended
BTW, related to the above, Orpheus10's comments re Bird's influence are well taken. His influence turned the jazz world upside down, and it was to the credit of players like Konitz that they chose a different path.
Orpheus, two great choices. Loved the Jimmy Giuffre cut; hadn't heard that before. Players from that era were amazing musicians; they listened to and took in the influence of just about everything. On that cut can be heard shades of Copland's "Hoedown", Gershwin, as well as, of course, the blues. Great stuff.
Another great Chico Hamilton record that I appreciate is "Gongs East" featuring Eric Dolphy, surely one of the most distinctive alto sounds ever.
We have no disagreement. I was just trying to show the influence of the public in our perception of 'the best'. I did not mean to imply that you thought mariano was the best. just a favorite. And I understand the mastery of the instrument versus creativity. Brings to mind Wynton Marsalis. He is truly a master of the trumpet. But, not my favorite player, just my favorite PERSON in Jazz, because of his efforts to preserve and grow the music.
I, for one, do not buy into all this 'the best' stuff. They are all magicians. This is as pertains to players.
I do have a best when it comes to the music. But magic can be found in the most usual places. Even listening to the car radio in traffic. Just a fleeting passage, a few bars / measures.
The trumpet playing on 'the monkey speaks his mind' on the Dr John Cd ' nawlinz, dis, dat or D'udda'. Check it out.
Two not mentioned yet, would be Bill Holman and Bob Florence. I always found them interesting. I have a newer recording of a big band Bob Florence wrote and played piano in before his death. The Phil Norman Tenant .
May seem like a strange question, but would you label Lee Konitz "West Coast"? He seems actually to defy labels.
Orpheus10, as you point out West Coast Jazz is difficult to define. But, it does have some general defining characteristics. It can be differentiated from East Coast Jazz and other styles by the fact that West Coast players tended to play with a "cooler" approach; generally speaking, with a lighter and softer tone. There was an emphasis on the composition and arrangements as opposed to the improvisation; and sometimes classical music compositional techniques such as fugues were part of the mix. The fact that there was great demand for arrangers in Hollywood surely helped some of these stay employed.
I already mentioned one of my favorite recordings in this style (the Previn/ Shorty Rogers). I mentioned that one because it is lesser known, as well as being a favorite. I am sure you already now some of these, but a few other favorites are:
Miles Davis "Birth Of The Cool". The title says it all. What can be said about this recording that hasn't already be said. Other than to note that this session is really considered a Gil Evans session; which further highlights the clout that the arranger had.
Dave Brubeck "Time Out". Good example of the use of classical techniques.
Paul Demond/ Gerry Mulligan "Two Of A Mind"
Zoot Sims "Quartets"
"Shelly Manne And His Men Play Peter Gunn" Henry Mancini arranger
"Art Pepper + Eleven"
Vince Guaraldi "Charlie Brown Suite" No kidding, one of my favorites which always puts a smile in my face.
Actually, that's not far from the truth. The masses decide most things. They decide what music is available for purchase. What cars we can buy etc....
Lets just pose a theoretical situation. Who is the best Jazz sax player? This is just to make a point, ok. Some would say Cannonball, some would say Coltrane, some might say Sonny Rollins, Charlie Parker,etc........ NO ONE would say, Charlie Mariano. Except, maybe the Frogman.
That's why Coach Parcells statement is applicable. Some questions are decided for us. There really is no room for 'real' argument.
Frogman, thanks for the info on John Purcell. I knew him from the Mt. Vernon public school system. He was a few grades ahead of me so it's not as if we socialized, but he was someone who other students looked up to as a style maker. When I was in 6th grade I was in a group that took part in a local talent contest. My band performed "Chattanooga Choo-choo" and took fifth place while Purcell's group did "Summertime" and took first. After Denzel, John is the most artistically talented person of that generation to come out of Mt. Vernon.
Bill Parcells, the great NY Giants and Dallas Cowboys pro football coach, once said: You Are, What Your Record Says You Are. Same in Music. If no one has heard of you, there is a reason why.
Rok, the definition of "West Coast" jazz is very elusive. That's because the same musicians also played East Coast, as well as "No Coast" jazz. It's kind of like "bouillabaise", you have to try a spoonful. No description can be quite appropriate, and to further complicate the matter, it had a short life span. Fortunately, there's a lot on "You tube", and Amazon has it, which means it's still available. I'll post the best examples I can find so that everyone will be able to recognize "West Coast".
Frogman, since you're an aficionado of West Coast jazz, I would appreciate it if you posted your best examples of West Coast.
In an earlier post I stated that Charlie Parker's spell was cast too strong over jazz in the 50's. While that was true, it was impossible not to come under the "Bird's" spell. He played jazz in so many different ways that they couldn't be classified. I'm going to give you one example of the "Bird", that you should have in your collection, and be thankful that it's available.
"Charlie Parker with Strings: The Master Takes", this music is so beautiful, that it doesn't matter what genre your musical preference falls in, you'll like this.
Rok, as I stated on an earlier post, if I'm not "resonant" to the music being played, it sounds like noise. It's for sure I'm not resonant to that music, but this is joke isn't it.
"The wire is thin and stretched tight between two poles. On one end is everything known – the safe sounds, the expected chords resolving in expected ways. On the far end is something more elusive – the magic realm where jazz becomes what the critic Whitney Balliett once called “the sound of surprise.”
This little bit of nonsense was written by a critic writing about Wayne Shorter's new CD, 'Without A Net'. Surprised Ideed!!
And he WAS such a good player. But I guess sooner or later you gotta go with the flow, if you wanna make a living playing Jazz. Rubalcaba is a partner in this crime.
Also mention in the notes was a group called 'Imani Winds'. I checked them out, and they seem to be something I will like. They get into some classical, Ravel. Also Piazzolla and Mongo Santamari.(afro blue).
I am sure The Frogman and O-10 will love the Shorter Disc.
I'm glad I got my JuJU, Speak No Evil and Etcetera.
Frogman, you were absolutely correct in assuming we could skip over the usual suspects. That first LP led me to a gold mine. Curtis Counce, Shelly Manne, Andre Previn, Bud Shank, Jimmy Giuffre, are all proponents of the West Coast jazz that I'm seeking. I can track each one of them during that time, and add to my West Coast collection.
Charlie Parker's spell was cast too strong over jazz in the 50's, and there was entirely too much imitation; while those on the West Coast were just doing their thing. This music is for "being cool", laid back and just enjoy listening. Thank you much.
Orpheus, as you know, lot's of great West Coast Jazz available. We can probably skip over the usual known suspects like the Birth Of The Cool sessions, Brubeck/Desmond, Mulligan, Getz, Chet Baker, etc. as there are a lot of other really great and lesser known examples. Here's a couple of great "under the radar players", some of these records are hard to find but worth looking for as well as others from these guys:
Oh man, Acman3! One of the most interesting, and also sad, stories in all of NYC-music-scene lore. I knew John peripherally due to mutual acquaintances and run-ins at various music-industry events. He was (is?) a respected jazz woodwind multi-instrumentalist with a reputation for being a real character with ideas that some considered truly off-beat. He also, sadly, has mental health problems and over the last several years has spent periods of times being institutionalized. A lot of John's controversial ideas have a great many parallels to what audiophiles go through. I have always felt that this aspect of being an instrumentalist has many parallels with audiophilia. You may find this story interesting; and my apology to anyone who finds this too much of a departure from the subject of this thread:
John believed (believes) that anything, and I mean ANYTHING, that you do to an instrument, no matter how minute and seemingly unimportant, will have an effect on the sound produced by the instrument; that it's all about resonance. Sound familiar? While he was ridiculed by some players for some of these ideas (not I), others thought of him as a kind of genius. If you look at the credits on some of David Sanborn's records from the 90's, you will see John credited as "sound consultant"; Sanborn's sound, that is. I don't mean to bore you with this, but this is a wild experience that I had that was related to this:
There is a well-known instrument repair/set-up man in NYC who, for many years was David Sanborn's repairman. Other saxophone players knew that Mondays and Tuesdays were blocked out for David Sanborn, and it would be almost possible to get to see him on those days. Sanborn is known for being obsessive about the set-up of his instrument, and actually had this technician on retainer so that he could have him service his instruments whenever he wanted. I also use this same technician. One day, after a rehearsal, I needed to have an emergency repair done before the performance later that evening. Even though it was Tuesday, I called him and asked if he could squeeze me in. I got very lucky, as Sanborn and Purcell (who Sanborn always brought along as "consultant") had just stepped out for lunch. I ran to the repair shop and all of Sanborn's gear was there. Here is where it gets good, and how it relates to what audiophiles agonize over concerning tweaks, and wether they make an audible difference or not. Keep in mind that a saxophone is a mechanical instrument with many keys, each operated by a small metal needle spring, not much larger than a sewing needle (hence the name).
I will never forget this: On the technician's workbench were three cork pieces each about six inches square. Two of the cork squares were packed with many springs stuck in them. Off to one side was a third cork square with a single, lone spring stuck in it. I looked at the technician, and he smiled and I immediately knew: THAT WAS THE ONE! That was the one that sounded best.
The last I heard about John Purcell was from a colleague who told me that John had been spotted at an intersection on the Upper West Side of NYC screaming at traffic as it went by. Sad indeed.
You are correct he is a great player. Awesome tone and phrasing. I noticed two things from what I have been able to read. He didn't seem to record a lot as leader and then not with the major labels.
The second thing is, he is called underrated, invisible, under the radar etc.... on a lot of reviews. I don't understand that at all. You can't be this good, and invisible an entire career.
I did listen to Dear John C on youtube. I will try him out. 'Boston All Stars' or 'Charlie Mariano Plays'. both seem to be from his best period.
Rok, check out Elvin Jones' album "Dear John C." featuring Charlie Mariano. Absolutely killer album from 1965 in a more modern bag; one of my very favorite records. There are some cuts on Youtube, but I don't seem to be ale to download them. This record shows Mariano at his absolute peak, IMO; before he moved in a completely different direction.
Rok, I am hesitant to say, you will love. It is not a safe choice, but it has been one of my favorites, and is a classic. After starting to listen to jazz from strictly rock, by way of Metheny, I picked up an ECM sampler and "forced" myself to understand what was going on. I picked this recording up at this time and fell in love with it.
If you think about it, it is actually easier, as a young man listening to Zeppelin, to understand free jazz and hard bop than structured classic jazz.
Acman3: I have Album Album on lp. But I have not played Lps since around 1987. So, all memory of it is gone. I will look for it on CD. I once thought I had replaced all my good Jazz lps with CDs, but I am learning everyday that I have not. Dancing around? I would hate for video of me when I am listening to be shown. That's the best part of this game.
I hae nothing by Purcell. Not even on my World Saxophone Quartet Discs. He played with a lot of big time people.
Charlie mariano -- Why have I not heard of this guy before?? The difference between his 'Darn that Dream' and the one by Dexter Gordon is, one was alto, the other tenor. 'Chloe' was first rate also. Mariano certainly belongs among the top tier players, so why is he an unknown?
Mariano's take on Beethoven's pathetique was astounding! I loved that. Esp being a big LvB fan. I wonder why Jazz guys don't mine classical stuff more. A lot of great melodies there.
I am going to order 'Charlie Mariano Plays'. Done in 1955.
I am going to move to modern jazz, only 30 years ago. Jack Dejohnette's "Album Album" from 1984. Great from start to finish. I was even dancing around Rok. Not a pretty sight.
Frankly, I had not listened to this lost gem since I upgraded my system about 5 years ago. Kind of a eye opener.
Frogman, Charlie Mariano is one of those musicians, I saw out of the corner my eye; meaning he was around, but I just didn't see him. I also discovered what we wont discuss, in consideration of Rok's sensitivities.
Good "West Coast" jazz is something I'm trying hard to acquire. All the records I had have long gone, and it was something that came and went. I recall me and another aficionado going to movies just to hear the soundtracks; that's where the very best examples of West Coast jazz appeared, as well as TV backgrounds. The movies were so forgettable that I've forgotten them. Maybe you remember some good West Coast jazz?
I heard Marsh Play 'body and soul' with Kenny Drew. I also listen to Marsh and Konitz on "donna lee'. I was surprised. I actually enjoyed them both. I will defer to you on the technical analysis, but if I did not know who was playing, I would have thought it could have been any number of the Blue Note era guys. Thats tall cotton in my world.
I also heard Gonzalo Rubalcaba play 'donna lee'. Both were great. When you can hang with the big boys, there is not much more to be said. The individual differnces and nuances are what makes it all so great.
I will listen to Charlie mariano and report. I see his name is associated with 'world music,' ugh! But I will persevere :)
Another overlooked great, and one of the most interesting and unusual (in sound and concept) tenor players was Warne Marsh. A West Coast player who was one of the main exponents of the Cool School and a protege of the great Lennie Tristano. His use of the piano-less rhythm section was a testament to the great command of harmony that he had. One of the true tests for a jazz player, and considered by the players themselves one of the things that separates the "men from the boys" is the ability to improvise over a tune without the "crutch" of the piano's harmonic underpinnings.
Charlie Mariano, my favorite alto player, and one who slips under the radar way too often. Clearly a bebopper, he covered a lot of stylistic ground including Middle Eastern (we won't go there again, Rok) in his later recordings. But, his recordings from the fifties are straight-ahead and beautiful. One can hear the Bird influence in the shape of his lines, but unique in the choice of notes within those shapes. A beautiful player:
"Soul Jazz", that sounds like an appropriate name for the music presented by this aggregation. However, I beg to differ in regard to the home thing. I picture myself seated at a table with a beautiful lady who enjoyed jazz even more than me. Kenney Burrell's resonant guitar is the perfect compliment to Stanley's sax and Shirley's organ. There's nothing like the scintillating feeling you get from live music reverberating in your ear; the most expensive rig can't even come close, and since this is my fantasy, that's the way I'm hearing it.
"The Electrifying Eddie Harris" is my pick. Artists on this album were: Eddie Harris - tenor saxophone, varitone Melvin Lastie, Joe Newman - trumpet King Curtis - tenor saxophone David Newman - tenor saxophone, baritone saxophone Haywood Henry - baritone saxophone Jodie Christian - piano Melvin Jackson - bass Richard Smith - drums Ray Barretto, Joe Wohletz - percussion.
"Theme in Search of a Movie" is just that, it sounds like every beautiful musical score you've ever heard, all rolled into one. Some of Eddie Harris's most beautiful music is on this LP, while his most exciting music was with him and Les McCan, on "Compared to What". That music is just as real and relevant today as it was then.
Stanley Turrentine -- Hustlin' with/ Shirley Scott, Kenny Burrell, Bob Cranshaw, Otis Finch.
This is what they call 'Soul Jazz'. This Cds is very smooth. Music to think by. No fireworks here, but things really move along. Had a hard day, wanna unwind and just meditate and think? This is the type Jazz you need. Scott (stanley's wife), is very effective on organ.
This is not Jazz for a club or a concert hall. It's Jazz for the home. With someone, it's even better. They even dip into Dvorak's New World. Dvorak and Lloyd Price? That's covering the waterfront.
Alberta Hunter, Lucille Hegamin, Victoria Spivey -- 'Songs We Taught Your Mother'
Well, we have a Tuba, A clarinet, J.C. Higginbotham and Willie 'The lion' Smith. We know what this means. This is old school music, even by my standards. But, I love it. The word that flashes in my mind when I hear it is, 'Home'. These ladies are up in age, but they sound so natural. All the tracks seem to be the blues, but since it was in the Jazz section of my rack, it will be Jazz for today. Good sound. Recorded in 1961. Very slight tape hiss on some tapes. Not objectionable.
Foster, the key to finding what you're looking for is the time. My recorded version is 7 minutes long while that was 18 minutes long. The biggest difference is Horace's long "unrestrained" solo. That goes for "Senor Blues" as well.
Although I've got a ton of Silver's music, nothing like that. Let me know if you find a CD of what you're looking for.
Tired of all this 'serious' discussion? Don't really care what Coltrane was trying to say? Who the hell is Sun Ra? Think 'Free jazz' is a little 'too free'?
I have the cure for what ails ya!
Louis Jordan -- Five Guys Named Moe (vol 2)
I remember hearing this music when I was pre-school age. I remember hearing my parents talk about Jordan. This is just music to be happy. As a bonus, there is a duet with Louis Armstrong. Pops plays a little trumpet also. On the tune 'Open the Door Richard' I remember hearing the line "I know he's in there, cause I got the clothes on" hahahaha That is as funny today as it was back in the days of the 78rpm records. Get this and forget all your troubles.
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