Rok,
I agree with your stance on Charlie Parker.To say he had too much influence is baffling and bizarre. Miles in his autobiography said bird's talent and genuine extraordinary creatively affected not only the sax players but all musicians regardless of the instrument. Miles said an entire generation was simply in awe of the astonishing playing and standard he established. I understand that some just don't care for bird (that's ok) but
his Iimpact and legacy is unquestionable.
Regards, |
I remember a talk show program long ago where some caller said bird was over rated and given too much credit. He felt that Paul Desmond was a better alto player and deserved equal status.Now if he likes Desmond more that's perfectly fine and his opinion. To lmply that Desmond had the same stature,impact and contribution is insane!
Regards, |
"When Joanna Loved Me" I have a duet version of that by Frank Morgan and Kenny Burrell, it's just a beautiful song .Appreciate the video clip. |
To be clear I enjoy the west coast jazz genre very much, it just has a different feel from the harder edged east coast bop approach.I have lots of both.Idon't believe the west musicians were inferior to the east boppers, but will admit often the east style is more complex and in somes instances more ambitious. I can listen to Harold Land, Teddy Edwards or Richie kumuka or switch to Dexter Gordon, Sonny Stitt and Joe Henderson.I can really appreciate what they all play in their own way. Same with trumpeters Jack sheldon (underrated chops) or Fats Navarro, very different, I like them both.Pepper Adams or Gerry Mulligan? I can listen to either all day.I appreciate and respect the uniqueness of these beautiful musicians and am less incline to argue who's better than who.I wish I could play 10% as well as any of them.I'm happy to have their recordings and a system to play them.
Regards, |
Thanks Frogman, I certainly didn't mean to suggest that complexity is inherently superior but was simply trying to make a distinction between the two styles.You could say Hamptom Hawes or Carl Perkins is simpler than Bud Powell but it doesn't mean less enjoyed.
Regards, |
Pnmyer,
I feel as you do, you can enjoy musicians equally while acknowledging they may occupy different levels of technical ability and overall influence.I know that Chet isn't the masterful trumpeter that Clifford Brown was yet I can listen to both and really connect. Both could express much emotion through their horns.Victor Feldman didn't attain the stature of Oscar Peterson but you know what, I love his piano and vibraphone playing.Dexter Gordon, a fabulous tenor player but many don't know who he is.Paul Desmond gets much deserved recognition but I prefer Sonny Stitt (Sonny who?).This is why jazz is great, so many wonderful musicians, all with their own special voice.We get the chance to hear them all if we so choose.
Regards, |
Jazzcourier,
Thanks for introducing me to Warren Vache, I'll get some of his recordings. Frogman thanks for the audio clip, Bill Charlap I'm familiar with and have seen him live twice in my town.
A really good Kenny Barron recording is "Live at Bradley's" there are two different CDs covering various sets . He's joined by Ben Riley and Ray Drumond.Exceptional playing and well recorded.
A lesser known but fine pianist is Tardo Hammer, he beautifully pays tribute to the wonderful music of Tadd Dameron.The CD is "look, stop and Listen" this is well played and very well recorded.
Regards, |
This is one of the more interesting and informative threads on audiogon in a while.Orpheus, your friend very well have been an exception. The jazz musicians I've known put considerable hours into practice, serious practice.
Regards, |
Frogman you have good taste,Pepper Adams is a wonderful musician and I have numerous recordings with him as leader and sideman.I also love his utilization of the lower register of the majestic baritone sax. Gerry Mulligan is equally accomplished with a different approach. "Night Lights" which features prominently Art Farmer is beautiful, these two were excellent together.
The Ray Charles -Milt Jackson collaboration mentioned earlier is very good.
Regards, |
If anyone enjoys Milt Jackson as I do,this recording sounded beatiful last night.
"Big Bags" Milt fronting a large jazz band and playing arrangements by Tadd Dameron and Ernie Wilkins. On the Riverside label from 1962, nice CD.
Regards, |
Rok,
Well said regarding Wynton.
O-10.Look, I respect your stance, we'll just respectfully disagree, he can play and also make music in my opinion.I sincerely appreciate all the contributions to this thread.We are all lovers of jazz but with individual viewpoints (as it should be).Rok and I just happen to see Wynton in the same light.
To change topics, does anyone here listen to Shirley Scott? Last night I played three CDs of her and it was pure communication taking place. Man, can she play that B3 organ wow! She swings as good as anybody regardless of the instrument.What a musician she is.
Regards, |
I really like Jimmy Smith paired with Kenny Burrell.When I think about it, Kenny was good with practically anyone he played with.
Regards, |
It's interesting concerning the backlash some have towards Wynton.It seems a badge of hipness and inter circle creditability to dis him. Too mainstream, unoriginal, lacks soul, passion, and on and on it goes.I'd love the opportunity to get any of these "hipper" musicians on the stage with him and attempt to outplay or "expose him", good luck. Just seems like typical envy and petty jealousy ("hey he gets to much undeserved praise"). Reminds me of how some people react to Tiger Woods or Michael Jordan. They're so talented and gifted that people just find reasons not to like them.
It someone doesn't like Wynton's style that a matter of taste (and that's fine) butvto say he can't play or not to acknowledge his obvious talent is just nutty.The man can flat out play the trumpet.
Regards, |
Rok,
I think you'll like Ray and Milt "Soul Brothers/Meeting", pure blues beauty. Ray's chords are just so right (that's what I always Ioved about Barry Harris accompanying also).
Regards, |
Learsfool,
I really appreciate your comments and insights concerning Wynton.It must have been so much fun spending time with him.I hope you do get a chance to play with him one day.
Frogman,
Thanks for those clips, I enjoyed them.I liked Clifford Brown's version the most.Wynton was just beautiful playing the Carnival of Venice.
O-10,
What moves us is purely personal and unique, it's impossible to expect unanimous agreement on what musicians we like and don't like.The point is jazz is a extraordinary form of art and I'm just happy there are others here who love it as much as I do.
Regards, |
O-10,
I have a piano at home and my wife and I love to hear it played.I attend local jazz clubs regularly and have done so for many years. I have no delusion that home audio equals the live experience. What I've discovered though is certain types of components get me pleasingly close and deeply emotionally involved. So I'm very happy listening often when at home.
It's a genuine pleasure to be able to hear the performances of great musicians in your home system when ever you desire. Here's an example, last night I'm really enjoying listening to Harold Land and thought, he plays the same instrument as Dexter Gordon and Johnny Griffin. They're more or less from the same era and all three at some point have played the same standards and ballads, Yet it's very easy to tell one from the other.Each has their own sound and approach.Each could play "Lush Life" or "It Never Entered my Mind" and they would sound readily different and all three would be beautiful.
Regards, |
Thanks O-10,
I read long ago an interview with Max Roach where he`s discussing his band of the 1950s.He said they preferred Land to Sonny Rollins at that time.Many jazz fans likely found that surprising as Land is by far the lesser known of those two.Land would be my choice also.
Regards, |
Thanks Frogman,
Max said just what you described, Harold was just a better fit.Max expressed much respect for Sonny's talent and stature, he simply preferred the playing of Land. The fate of a wonderful saxophonist like Land playing in small town venues to earn money is stark contrast to Wynton Marsalis. This I think explains the envy and resentment some feel towards him (why does he get all the breaks and the big bucks? ).Ironically it's precisely someone like Wynton who helps to revive and promote the recognition of the Harold Lands of jazz past and present . Otherwise these types of timeless artists would completely be lost in obscurity.
Regards, |
It certainly doesn`t mean he`s a better musician.It is sheer evidence he`s far more popular and has legions of fans who are happy consumers of his product.Was Michael Jackson a better musician than T.Monk?
Regards, |
Rok,
I feel the same, Wynton isn't my favorite trumpeter or the"best".I do enjoy his music and have much respect for him on several different levels. Like you I long ago tired of the redundant bashing.
Regards, |
Learsfool,
Well said.As much as I truly enjoy listening to jazz with my system, it won't ever replace the feel and vibe I experience at the jazz clubs I frequently attend. There's no substitute.
Regards, |
Rest easy Rok,
The caliber of musicians we all enjoy don't resort to this nonsense. |
I'd like to recommend a CD you all may enjoy (I really like it). "Fingerpainting" the music of Herbie Hancock played by a piano less trio.Nickolas Payton, Mark Whitfield and Christian McBride.Very good music and certainty playing, Payton's trumpet is in top form.
Regards, |
I suspect a classical musician would be equally out of their element if asked to sit in with a group in a jazz venue. Two diiferent disciplines.Neither a piece of cake.Like pro athletes,a NBA player and NFL player would`nt automatically fill the other`s shoes.
Regards, |
Hi Frogman,
I`m glad you enjoyed it.I play it fairly regularly. I love "Chan`s Song" with that beautiful con arco bass introduction by Mcbride.The duet "Kiss" just catches my ears every time.Herbie could write some beautiful music.
Regards, |
For a number of years I've felt that "Jazz at the Pawn Shop" was representative of the quintessential audiophile Creed, the sound means more than the music being performed. |
As far as trumpeters respected by brass players more so than the casual jazz fan I'd add Kenny Dorham and even the lesser known Jack Sheldon.
When Jack was paired with Harold Land in the Curtis Counce band Sheldon's tone and playing was really good.
Regards, |
Learsfool,
I understand the point Opheus10 is making. My passion is definitely jazz but I respect all skilled and talented musicians. Do classical musicians also improvise Learsfool? I`d like your perspective.It fascinates me when jazz musicians play an entire set(or the full evening) with no sheet music to be found anywhere. In no way do I want this to become a jazz vs classical battle(pointless arguement).I`m asking strictly for a musician`s unique vantage point.I`m convinced it takes much work and ability to master either.
Regards, |
Learlsfool,
That explanation really Cleared up a lot of questions I`ve always had regarding the ability of jazz musicians to play so many different songs.I have seen on "rare" occasions where a requested song was not able to be played.I appreciate you sharing your considerable knowledge and experience with the rest of us interested music loving folks here.
Charles, |
Film Noir one of my favorite forms of entertainment.There were the 1940s versions that were usually NYC based and by the 1950s many used LA as the locale.The west coast 1950s films really relied on jazz based sound tracks, I love them.
In addition to Cedar Walton and Kenny Barron, another very fine but under appreciated pianist was John Hicks, he can play! Check him out and I`m sure you`ll like him.
Charles, |
"The Big Heat" yep, that was a good one . |
Rok,
I look forward to your reviews. I bet you'd really enjoy "Together" this is a duet with Hicks and the wonderful Frank Morgan(alto) recorded live.
Charles, |
Learsfool,
There's a Jimmy Heath CD "The Quota" it features Julius Watkins and Freddy Hubbard recorded in 1961. You might like this one.
Charles, |
Learsfool,
That Benny Green CD I suggested yesterday has no shortage of trombone, it`s high level Bop and a couple of ballads. |
Frogman,
Thanks for that, it captures the sheer talent, energy and genuine raw joy and emotion this music inspires, it's all there on display. Thad Jone's legacy has always been an enigma to me. He was an absolute master of the trumpet, excellent band leader and arranger and composed some timeless jazz standards. For some reason (early death?) historically he takes a back seat to his equally talented brothers Elvin and Hank(that was some gene pool in that family huh?).
One of the most beautiful jazz ballads I can name is"A Child Is Born" written by Thad Jones. Of all the versions I've heard I'd say Pepper Adams is perhaps the most utterly beautiful and touching interpretation. Thad was extraordinarily talented.
Charles, |
Benny Green "Glidin Along" features Johnnie Griffin, Ben Riley and Junior Mance. This is excellent jazz trombone, Benny could play!
Charles, |
Rok,
Your comment about You Tube is so true.I`ll pick a song, say,"It never entered my mind", or "These Foolish Things" and just enjoy the variuos versions,vocal or instrumental.What a great resource it is.
Charles, |
Hi Frogman,
You mentioned Sonny Stitt who is a musician I really enjoy, admire and listen to often. I feel that he was able to move between the alto and tenor saxophones effortlessly. He demonstrates this on the Album "Constellation" accompanied beautifully by pianist Barry Harris, bassist Sam Jones and drummer Roy Brooks. I always appreciate your input.
Charles |
Hi Frogman, Okay I definitely understand your point. I'm working now but will listen to the recordings you've sumitted later tonight. As is clear I love Stitt's performing with any sax but would say at his core he's a Bop/blues alto saxophonist who happens to do everything else superbly. I've never hears him play the baritone sax so I'm looking forward to that. Charles |
