Acman3:
As I said, I enjoyed the CD better than the video. Video can giveth, and video, can taketh away. It took away in this case.
See the talk on Milt and Hutcherson for an example of video helping..
Could have done without the screen in the background. Added nothing to the performance except to make it appear less serious.
"it is my unofficial biography" could you elaborate?
Cheers |
I loved the Mcferrin CD. It is currently on loan to a friend.
It is my unofficial biography. |
Nice stuff from Bags and Hutcherson. Swinging classic jazz from two masters. Thanks for the clips.
O-10 is exactly right when he says: "Bags is saying more with fewer words". Hutcherson plays great, but his playing is much more notey and he likes to be flashier than Bags. There are certain subtle "statements" that players make for each other and for the audience that don't always have anything to do with the music in the usual sense, but speak volumes about that player's attitude and sense of self. For instance, notice how on "Just Friends" Hutcherson plays the first solo and takes 5 (!) choruses; that is a lot of blowing by any standard. Bags follows and has the confidence to, instead of saying: "Oh yea, I'm gonna take six", he says : "I don't need five choruses, I can can say it in two"; and he does. Love it!
I also agree about each player's tone; I prefer Bags' tone. A large (not all) part of the reason for the difference is the equipment they use. Both instruments do have a pedal (they all do). Since Hutcherson's is, overall, more streamlined, the pedal is harder to see as opposed to the pedal on Bags' vibes which is larger and more "decorative". Bags' instrument also has the large wooden side panels which tend to give the sound a fuller quality, as well as the arched resonator tubes which is really just a cosmetic difference to give the instrument that contoured appearance in the front. If you look closely at the mallets that they each play, you will notice that the heads on Hutcherson's mallets are smaller and less "fluffy"; hence harder. That is the main reason for the difference in tone. Bags' mallet heads are larger and softer giving the sound a slightly rounder, fuller and less metallic quality. Both beautiful players. |
I did a brilliant 'review' of the Bobby McFerrin CD 'Spirit you all" a while back.
Of course it was totally ignored by the Aficionado community.
It has been in my player everyday since.
Here is a youtube of my favorite cut. ' 25:15 '
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgV-xKe6vGE
The Cd is even better. No weak tracks and no filler.
Ain't got it? Better git it!
Cheers |
Speaking of Christian McBride, I just received this afternoon, the CD of The Christian McBride Trio -- OUT HERE
I hope it's as good as hyped!
Cheers |
Rok, Jackson and Hutcherson were twice as nice the second time around. Bags seemed to be saying more with fewer words, especially on "Bags Groove". Did you notice how well coordinated the color scheme on their attire was.
"Delilah" on the CD "Skyline" by Bobby is exquisite, I bought the CD just for that cut, although it was all good. The artists were: Kenny Garret, alto sax; Geri Allen, piano; Christian McBride, bass; and Al Foster, drums.
Bags vibraphone had a pedal and seemed more complex, also I liked the tone better; but I never would have noticed if you hadn't mentioned there was a difference. Yes, this was better than the double piano because both artists were "deep in the groove" on this one, wish I had been there.
Enjoy the music.
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O-10:
Jackson and Hutcherson -- Jazz Baltica 99
WOW!! I loved it! There is absolutely no substitute for SEEING these magicians at work! These were serious players, playing Jazz. This clip is even better than the Gene Harris double Piano clip.
Did you notice the glances exchanged between Milt and Hutcherson as they ended their solos? On 'Bags Groove' I thought Milt's glance said, "you do know who 'Bags' is? don't ya!" hahahahahahhahhahah
But it was great all around. We are so fortunate now to have this stuff, and hopefully forever.
Delilah -- It was good also. I thought they played it just a tad too long. It sort of petered out rather than ended. It might have been no longer than the other concert, it just seemed longer. Smoother? :(
I only have two CDs by Hutcherson. His first as a leader,'dialogue', and 'Color Schemes'. I also have him with 'The Timeles All-Stars' and Eric Dolphy's 'Out to Lunch'.
I think he tap danced around the avant garde stuff for a while. He seemed to be with Dolphy and Andrew Hill a lot.
But on these clips he was back in the groove. Had seen the error of his ways and was bopping once again. Redemption!!
Thanks for the clips. Great stuff!
What was the difference between the two player's vibraphones?
Cheers |
O-10:
Eddie Harris - It's amazing how sensitive these guys can play. This was a great tune and light years from 'Swiss Movement'!
That's another reason Jazz is so much like classical music. Not only is it timeless, but can go from the Sublime to the outrageous, from one track to the next. Quite a range of emotions.
Cheers |
O-10:
Harlem Nocturne -- Great Music and a greater photo! One of the most famous photos in jazz.
Cheers |
O-10:
Hank Crawford: Good clips. We are getting close to home now. This guy operated in Memphis, just up the road, highway 61, from my home.
I liked all the youtubes, but, 'Peepers' was my favorite. As much R&B as Jazz, and that's a good thing.
Seems as if he played with all the greats, B.B. King, Ray, Bobby Bland and Ike Turner etc.... I consider his stuff to be what they call 'soul Jazz', and that's a good thing also.
His music is easy to relate to, though not innovative. On 'Peepers" even Sanborn got in the groove. I think Crawford is quoted as saying,"if the audience ain't moving, you ain't playing". :) My kind of attitude.
I have just one CD by Crawford. A twofer on Collectables Jazz Classics; Mr Blues / Mr Blues Plays Lady Soul. Mostly R&B stuff.
I think there should be a seperate sub-set of Jazz for people like Crawford and Ray Charles and others that stayed and played in places other than NYC or LA. Stayed close to the source, both musically and geographically.
Thanks for the Post
Cheers |
O-10:
Have not forgotten your youtubes. Will comment tomorrow. Was very busy today.
Cheers |
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****** You could argue that Getz is violating the intent of the composer. If he is, so be it.*******
If this is true, then how, pray tell, could he embody the intent of the tune at the same time.
I think this guy is an 'audiophile'. He should go back to the 'wire' and 'mine is better than your' arena.
Cheers |
"Blood Count" was a featured piece for Stan Getz for decades. As much as I love Johnny Hodges, it's Getz who embodies the song. There are numerous YouTubes and recorded version. Here's some interesting commentary about Getz and the song. That's the sum total of my comments about "Blood Count". I stand by this statement. It is not a statement of fact, but of opinion. To be perfectly honest I do not understand the consternation these few sentences have raised, particularly since the arguments against my comments are nothing more than opinions. For instance: It's totally 100% impossible for anyone other than Johnny Hodges to embody the essence of what Billy Strayhorn has written better than, "Johnny Hodges". you cannot say a player can 'embody' a tune written by a great composer, on his death bed, and written for players of whom he had a very intimate knowledge as people and players. Are these anything more than opinions? What I particularly like about how Getz works the tune is that he strips it down to what I would call its essence. It's raw and emotional. Those are two words not often associated with Ellington/Strayhorn. You could argue that Getz is violating the intent of the composer. If he is, so be it. That's one of the reasons jazz performances are considered creative events as opposed to recitals. Please make allowances for me not knowing the official orthodoxy regarding Strayhorn/Hodges and "Blood Count". Apparently Elvis Costello didn't get the message either. |
Since we got sidetracked, no one commented on Hank Crawford, or Bobby Hutcherson.
Onhwy61, I would like for you to join us. We will all respect your OPINIONS and posts. As Rok stated, that one word caused our trollys to jump the track; I'm sure that wont happen again.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, did you miss "Bobby Hutcherson"? |
The Frogman's post was as eloquent, logical and well reasoned as always.
If this was Physics, we would say it was 'beautiful'.
Lets get back to important stuff! I have a 'review' coming up! :) Calm down! I'll post it soon. You people never get enough!!
Cheers |
Words matter.
"Embodies" was a bad choice of words. Change that, and I have no problem with anything else he wishes to say.
But, you cannot say a player can 'embody' a tune written by a great composer, on his death bed, and written for players of whom he had a very intimate knowledge as people and players.
He knew who would play his work. You can't get around that. He wrote many tunes for the Ellington Band.
Now if you like Getz, fine! Liking Getz' version is a valid 'OPINION'. Just leave the 'embodied' thing out of it.
And lastly, this place is more of a conversation, than the usual "audiophile Thread". NOTHING here has to be better, or worst, than anything else. It's all good.
Now as the OP said, lets consider the CASE CLOSED, lest we become like the rest of Audiogon.
Cheers |
Consistent with the power of great music, the subject of "Blood Count" has elicited some very strong feelings. I don't think I can add anything to what I have already stated concerning my reasons for considering the original version to be the best other than to encourage all to consider that context (historical or otherwise) is very important when "judging" any art. I invite and encourage Onhwy61 to tell us why he considers Getz's version to be superior. Not to take him to task, but simply as an attempt take this discussion beyond simple statements of "I like this better", and learn what exactly he means by stating that Getz "embodies" the tune. I realize that putting feelings about a performance, and art in general, is not an easy task. But, surely, some commentary should be possible; if only something as simple as "I prefer the sound of the tenor saxophone", but hopefully something beyond that.
Having said all that, and since Gioia's review was cited as support of Onhwy's particular viewpoint (or, at least, how his comment was interpreted), a couple of observations about the review:
Interestingly, Gioia never says that Getz's version is superior at all. He never says anything about Getz playing it better than Hodges nor that Getz's quartet renditions are better than Ellington's. Notice that I said "his quartet's rendition's"; this goes back to my previous comments about musical context and the need to look at the entire composition/orchestration, not simply the melody. What he actually does say is "Getz owned this song". What does he mean by this? I doubt Gioia is lurking on Agon in order to tell us, but I think we have some important clues. Again, context; historical context:
Strayhorn wrote it, Ellington/Hodges performed it and recorded it (once). After Strayhorn's passing (and adding poignancy to the whole matter) Ellington never played it again out of respect for Strayhorn. Many years later, Getz makes the composition a staple of his repertory and plays and records it beautifully; and, by all accounts, probably much more frequently than any other artist. THAT is what I believe Gioia meant by "Getz owned this song". Not, that he played it better than Hodges did. I believe Gioia (or any credible jazz writer) knows better than to say something like that, while fully understanding the reverence held for Ellington, Strayhorn, Hodges, and the circumstances around that composition.
Speaking of reverence and the other "review" that is cited (Scott Albin). First of all, I find it conspicuous that he uses the same language that the far more credible writer (Gioia) used; that Getz "owned" the tune "FROM THAT POINT ON" (1982). I would not argue that point. However, he also said that Getz "outdid Hodges". While I definitely don't agree with that assertion, I think that he, also, misses the point about needing to consider the entire composition and not just the tune. Now, the part about reverence, and I admit that any conclusion about this is conjecture on my part, but it decreases this particular writer's credibility in my book:
I find highly suspect this writer's assertion that Getz had never heard the Ellington/Hodges recording of "Blood Count" prior to recording it fifteen years after Ellington recorded it. First of all, Getz had a great fondness for Strayhorn tunes; to the extent that he recorded an entire album of the music of Strayhorn, as well as performing many of the compositions live on a regular basis. A great jazz player with a fondness for a particular composer would be familiar with just about all of that composer's work. Additionally, given the prominence of Ellington, Strayhorn, Hodges and the circumstances around the composition, the story is the kind of thing that travels like wild fire within the jazz community. It is difficult to believe that Getz had never heard it. Obviously conjecture on my part, but I think it points to the use of hyperbole by that particular writer.
Not that Ohnwy61 needs anyone's opinion to support his own; he doesn't. But, personally, I would appreciate knowing why he has it. |
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Onhwy61
"The most beautiful yet sad and haunting jazz compositions that I have ever heard. This was written by Billy Strayhorn for Ellington's band and was his last composition. He was dying from cancer and finished it while in the hospital. Johnny Hodges is simply incredible on this."
This was written by Billy Strayhorn for Ellington's band while he was dying of cancer. It's totally 100% impossible for anyone other than Johnny Hodges to embody the essence of what Billy Strayhorn has written better than, "Johnny Hodges".
The way Billy Strayhorn, Duke Ellington, and Johnny Hodges went together, your statement in regard to "opinion" is almost sacrilegious. I gave you the benefit of the doubt when I stated it was possible that Getz version sounded better.
Opinion means nothing in regard to this, and Ted Gioia's review was no less irreverent than your statement.
Case closed.
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Nothing in Jazz beats Ellington at his best over the years, IMHO. The amount of talent that came under his wings as well is hard to fathom! |
Bobby Hutcherson is an artist I don't think we touched on. In regard to his recognition as a top vibraphonist, his biggest problem has been "Milt Jackson". While many others compare everyone to the "jazz giants", I listen long and deep to each individual artist's contribution to jazz. In the case of Bobby, I give you "Delilah". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amgLychKCMYThat was most certainly a treat for my ears. Enjoy the music. |
Onhwy61, you're only making your situation worse, and I'm not going to try and explain how or why; the Frogman seems to be best with words, I'll leave it to him.
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Everybody has an opinion and I have stated mine. I have nothing but respect for anyone who disagrees with me. Well, maybe not everyone. Not to change anyone's opinion, but here's another critic who agrees with me. |
*******As much as I love Johnny Hodges, it's Getz who embodies the song. *********
Without doubt, The most outrageous statement ever made on this thread.
I thank the OP, O-10, and The Frogman, for calling him on it.
All opinions do not deserve respect. This is one!
Cheers |
Eddie Harris, "A Child Is Born", this is one beautiful tune. That reverberation makes the sound come from far away, and it just knocks me out. I had "reverb" in a 66 Electra 225 that made all the music sound this way; it was like riding in a cave. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N1mPWwxgRIEnjoy the music. |
onhwy61, although it's possible that Getz version sounded better, there's no way he could embody the song better than Johnny Hodges. If that sounds like a contradiction, I leave it to Frogmans post for elaboration.
Enjoy the music.
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onhwy61, although it's possible that Getz version sounded better, there's no way he could embody the song better than Johnny Hodges. If that sounds like a contradiction, I leave it to Frogman's post for elaboration.
Enjoy the music.
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Re Getz and Blood Count: I love the way Getz plays that tune; I can't think of anything that Getz did that I didn't like.
****As much as I love Johnny Hodges, it's Getz who embodies the song****
Interesting choice of words about a song written by a man who is about to leave his body. I agree that Getz's versions are great and there is no point debating who plays the song better. However, to my way of thinking, "Blood Count" is about the composition, orchestration and all, and not just the "song". It was the last statement by a brilliant composer/orchestrator intended to be played by a group of musicians that he knew exactly how each would sound on each individual part; they were his musical palette. No piano/bass/drums rhythm section can capture the dark and funereal (literally) sonorities of Ellington's brass and reeds; his chord voicings are amazing. The orchestration as a whole is a dialogue between the soloist (Hodges) and the band. Great stuff. |
Just beautiful, and very evocative of an era! Thanks. |
"Blood Count" was as you described it. Johnny Hodges was "Mr. Alto Sax" before Bird. This music prompted me to go through the vaults; I found a treasure of Duke Ellington, Billy Strayhorn, Johnny Hodges and others, for my listening pleasure, that was quite rewarding. This is music I heard as a child, when such things as who was making the music were irrelevant. Since I associate music with what I was doing when I heard it, childhood memories flashed across my mind like a slide show; in regard to the music, I only recall a joyous feeling and liking it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIkekMoEQY4&list=PL927020F299B15A86Enjoy the music. |
"Blood Count" was a featured piece for Stan Getz for decades. As much as I love Johnny Hodges, it's Getz who embodies the song. There are numerous YouTubes and recorded version. Here's some interesting commentary about Getz and the song. On a different topic, check out the story and video of Sarah Vaughan. |
Better sound and video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EG6KH905cGU
Cheers |
well you shouldn't have got me started!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNSFZWMnomM
cheers |
Jazz Tuba in it's natural enviroment. Rebirth Brass Band thingy might be a little raw for you 'up-North' sophisticates :)
Cheers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lmx3rlucDQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNSFZWMnomM |
As far as Jazz & tuba's go, IMO it begins and ends with the great Howard Johnson's band and debut recording; 'Gravity'. Piano, bass, & drums joined by 5-7 tubas. You'd be sorely mistaken by pegging this as a 'novelty' record. It's a beautiful, great Jazz record, you oughtta check it out! |
Hank Crawford is a tenor sax man you can instantly recognize, that's because his sound is so uniquely different from all the other tenor sax men; they also like his unique and pleasing sound. The first time I heard him, thoughts of Ray Charles came to mind, and I didn't know why; he was Ray Charles musical director from 1959 until 1963. "Angel Eyes" has been one of my favorite tunes for ages, but when I heard Hank's version, I realized this was the first time I'd heard Angel Eyes. It seems to have a deep melancholy sadness, and longing for the lost love of "Angel Eyes"; this song has come to life in the guise of a captivating women with angel eyes whose spell can not be broken, and it leaves all her lovers to long for the hypnotic gaze of her very special "angel eyes". His versions of other standards have a uniqueness I can't quite define; consequently I'm left with a new word, "Crawfordesque", there is no other way to describe the sound he gives to standards. I have here a package of my favorite tunes by Hank that I found on "you tube" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHdrtdqKkeM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dMcpgEt0AA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSHMRyY5Drk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0Cx8Tk4MiwEnjoy the music. |
Blood Count:
One of the best things about this thread, is being introduced to music you don't have. The absolute best thing, is being reminded of great music you already own.
Will play it today. I will enjoy it much more now that I know the HISTORY behind it.
Good Call.
Cheers |
One of the most beautiful yet sad and haunting jazz compositions that I have ever heard. This was written by Billy Strayhorn for Ellington's band and was his last composition. He was dying from cancer and finished it while in the hospital. Johnny Hodges is simply incredible on this. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ckls62nZHw |
"...You can't play anything on the horn that Louis hasn't already played...even modern."
-- Miles Davis
Maybe a little bit of an exaggeration; but, considering the source, it's quite a compliment. |
****Bob Stewart is a Professor at Julliard. He played Tuba with Mingus for a while. It may not be to your'e liking, but he is great.****
I did not question his musical ability. He knows his way around the Tuba, and if he teaches at Julliard, well, what else is there to say?
My point is this. The Tuba is just not a 'Jazz' instrument. Sure, some New Orleans groups and the brass bands use them, but that's about it. Anything else is a gimmick.
And I would bet there is not a musical instrument on planet earth that has not been a part of at least one Mingus recording date. I am sure I have heard Tuba on a Mingus record.
How many Saxophone players do you know with the ambition to play with a Classical Symphony Orchestra? Same problem that Jazz Tuba players have.
Even I find Dylan dated. Once the war in Viet Nam ended and the Civil rights violence subsided, he was finished. He was a niche performer. Loved his stuff back in the day. His was the first LP I ever purchased. Along with Baez and Saint-Marie.
And Jazz, like all great music, is not subject to a 'listen to by' date. It does not get old. I have an entire rack of Classical CDs. The music on these CDs was composed by people long dead. It ain't old.
I listened to 'Satch Plays Fats' today. WOW! Wanna hear Jazz trumpet? Listen to Pops. Just as current as when Waller wrote it.
Good one, about lady Gaga! Serves them right! hahahhah
Cheers |
Acman3, while I liked each individual musician ( I listened to the complete set), I didn't care for the music; maybe I've gotten too old for new music. I'd like the Frogman's take on it.
Enjoy the music.
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Bob Stewart is a Professor at Julliard. He played Tuba with Mingus for a while. It may not be to your'e liking, but he is great.
If Christian Scott did what you say, he would sound OLD school. Something NO young man wants to happen. I like his Band. They are influenced as much by today, as the past. Not always a bad thing.
I was in a record store the other day, and some Dylan was playing. I was thinking, this sounds pretty current and enjoying it. When I got to the counter to pay for my records, I asked two twenty-something "KIDS's" what they thought of the music. They looked at each other and one said, "It's OK when I go visit my Grandma" and they died laughing. Painful :^)
Keep enjoying what you like anyway, they will be old someday, and be stuck with Lady GAGA. |
If it's Jazz and a Tuba, it must be New Orleans Jazz or Brass Band or Sousa or maybe zydeco. There is nothing else that will fit. The Tuba is not a swing/BeBop/hard bop, instrument. Try Olympia or Preservation Hall.
If it's a Tuba in a 'self proclaimed' Jazz group, then they are Noise makers or sound creators.
Next?
Cheers |
O-10:
The Playing for Change CD has music not found on the DVD. I find it easier to concentrate without the video. See it once, that's enough.
I was not kidding about the kids and the Rock CD. It is awesome.
Cheers |
***** Christian Scott ****
Good player in need of a band. This band plays too loud. Over powers the leader / soloist. They also need a different wardrobe!!
Cheers |
****Another Bad Boy*****
Acman3, We are in agreement. In fact he is so BAD, he is just plain awful!!
This not Jazz. This is sound creation!
How many more assaults like this can my beloved music take and survive? Why don't they go pick on Rock?
Cheers |
While thinking of purchasing Winard Harper's album Coexist, I ran across this great label, JLP, Jazz Legacy Products. Great Jazz, Great Price! |
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