I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
I am not going to turn this thread into another "Thrilla in Manilla", or "The Brawl of The Audiophiles". If anyone likes that sort of thing, I suggest they start another rap thread; or better yet, go to the projects in "Nawlins". If you don't want to look at what's "REAL in RAP", I suggest you by pass this link.
Now I'm returning to our regular programing. We have already covered the very best jazz musicians who ever lived, we have also covered the best "jazz albums"; now, with some help, I'm going to cover the lesser known artists; some who might have been as good as the best.
Alex brought this musician to my attention, they call him "South Side Soul", and there is a very good reason for that. I have often written about the "South Side" of Chicago when I was a teenager; It was a magnificent place in many parts. The Pershing lounge was in the small part I lived in with my cousin. This part contained every ethnicity under the Sun with food to match those ethnicities. I can still remember the Pizza; while I've eaten a lot of pizza from a lot of places since that time, I've never had any pizza that good since I left the South Side.
"South Side Soul" is Mr. John Wright's nick name; he earned it from making an album by the same name. He didn't have the skills of the top tier jazz musicians, but he produced an album that made you visualize a small part of Chicago; to me, that's magic, especially when this part of Chicago existed only for a small period of time. This is the only thing those people who lived there have to cling to, that verifies the fact that it ever existed; and they have a day every year to honor "South Side Soul", Mr. Wrights nick name.
I would like to, with your help, to continue this new direction into lesser known jazz musicians; however, if you have something by one of the "top tier" jazz musicians that you would like to bring to our attention, that's fine.
Rok, that you invoke "your God" speaks volumes about your sense of grandiosity. I said it early on in the thread, what is missing in many of these discussions is a bit of humility; humility that acknowledges the fact that there is much to learn. One of the things that I find particularly humorous is that you would think that I am demanding minute details; and, along the same lines, O-10's comment a while back: "if you want to learn everything there is to learn about music get an encyclopedia". Both humorous because, not only are these "minute details" that I am supposedly demanding, in fact, very general and not the least bit comprehensive, but the notion that an encyclopedia (any encyclopedia) contains anything but a fraction of just how much there is to learn about music is silly. Re "authenticity" and "good/bad", the fact is that you and I are saying very similar things.
O-10, I have misinterpreted nothing about what you wrote. I suggest that a big part of the problem is that there simply is not enough clarity in what you sometimes write and it might be good if you step back and consider what you wrote before clicking on the "Post" tab. Example: first you refer to these Juilliard musicians as "playing only cliches" and not possessing "soul". Then later you state that they are "good jazz players, just not great players". Which is it? A jazz player who plays only cliches and has no soul cannot be a good jazz player by any standard; and obviously not a great one.
Would still like to know what it was about "The Peacocks" that you didn't like? Personally, I would much rather discuss music than the "politics" of it. Oh yeah, who is it that brings "politics" to this? 😉
jafant and alexatpos, since you are both such nice guys I’ll make one last post.
A guy in Podunk, Maine listed a Cary-AES A-25 MK II amp for $800 bucks, I bought it . When I received it it was not that but a decade older and 50% less powerful plain A-25 . I emailed A’gon support with the facts, no reply , then left the hustler with negative feedback, That got immediate reply from A’gon in the form of their automated "Dispute" form . As soon as i wrote the facts and sent it all it did was to remove the crooks negative . In short the people who run this site are a bit bent to say the least .Same thing happened last month with an IC that seller said I should have asked him if it was not RCA but XLR . Just getting on here makes me feel like I’m entering a sleezy whorehouse so I'll "just walk on bye " . God Bless
I have to keep telling myself that my God has a plan. There is a purpose to all of this. I have faith.
1. Look up the meaning of 'Authentic'. Does not speak to good or bad. Does speak to the 'real' deal.
2. Human beings would not be able to converse if they were not allowed to use "generalities". Demanding minute exact details is a good tactic to score points in a discussion, but it's evasive and bogus.
3. Look up Woody, and then look up PP&M. Woody is Authentic. Whether you like him or not, is not the point. 'Resonate' sounds good but has nothing to do with the question.
Interesting role reversal here; love it. It was O-10 who would take on the role of peacekeeper when you and I would lock horns. Regardless, peace is good! So, thanks.
However, re "the real deal": NO WAY! Of course, some artists resonate to any one of us as being the real deal. The point of contention is whether the "street" musician has a leg up on some sort of "authenticity". Sure he can; in some cases. That musician can also be authentically bad. It all needs to be looked at on a case by case basis. If it isn't obvious by now that generalities of that kind are fool's folly, then it never will be to some. Times change, the street changes. Are we comparing the aesthetic values of musicians and music from sixty years ago when a kid wasn't even able to major on saxophone, never mind jazz, to those of the present. It always comes back to whether we are open to the music of the present or not. Sorry guys, but your scope is simply way too narrow. It may be one's opinion but it is not rooted in reality. What was that great quote from Alex? Will get back to you with that.
Honest question, O-10; and for the sake of, hopefully, interesting discussion. What was it about "The Peacocks" that you didn't like? From my vantage point it is a beautifully evocative and impressionistic melody that showcases Getz's highly expressive abilities. And that sound! To add to the expressiveness is Getz's brilliant use of the "clacking" of the keys of the saxophone to, in case anyone didn't catch it, mimick the fluttering of peacock wings. No multiple choruses of improvisation and, in keeping with your premise of singers not butchering a tune, just "singing" the melody. Was it detective Mike Hammer that used to say "the facts, mam; just the facts (of a melody)"? Pure artistry, imo.
Assuming my usual role as peacemaker, is it possible that you guys are at odds over what is Authentic / Authenticity, and what is not.
Think, Woody Guthrie vs Peter Paul & Mary.
One came from a certain time and place, and spoke for the people who lived during that time and place. He was one of them. He, and his music, were Authentic.
I liked them both. But I knew the real deal.
Cheers
BTW, I think 'Juilliard' is used in this discussion to represent a certain school of thought. We all know North Texas is the better place. :)
O-10, who? Who?! Examples please. Since you can't provide any I will assume that you're making this stuff up. I guess, then, that Phil Woods is not a great jazz player; news to me. Sorry, O-10, no straw men; simply going by what you write. I think that this business of the superiority of the "street player" is the worst cliche of all; and really, if one considers that literally only a handful of well known jazz players attended Juilliard, does this issue deserve for you to keep bringing it up in an attempt to somehow cast a negative light on an institution that does so much good work? Talk about straw man!
Sorry, O-10, when it comes to this stuff you simply don't know what you're talking about. In the meantime, if you're interested in discussing Johnny Hodges' style and sound so you can identify him when you hear him I would be glad to; I have lots of examples. Rolling my eyeballs now.
Frogman, my beef is not with higher education, but with musicians who lean on higher education when they play jazz; believe me, it comes through. I do not have a short memory, it's you who are stirring the pot. Yes, it would have been much simpler if you had just rolled your eyes, but you didn't.
My statement was not "anti Juilliard", and you are doing a good job of clarifying it for me. "Juilliard is not considered a top jazz school"; there other schools better for musicians who intend to play jazz. Juilliard is "primarily a Classical music school" Many top and well known jazz players attended Juilliard, but they didn't necessarily attend the school to "learn to play jazz". They attended to learn things like advanced counterpoint, composition, orchestration and pedagogy in order to be better-rounded and more complete musicians. Of course, attending Juilliard does not guarantee that the student will become a great and individualistic jazz player; that's wonderful.To say that attending Juilliard will guarantee being a good jazz player with good "jazz soul" is no more absurd than to say that learning "in the street" without a more formal education will guarantee that the player will be a good jazz player. There are far more really rotten jazz players that never attended a music school than there are rotten jazz players that did. The main problem with your premise is the implication that NOT attending a school will be more likely to guarantee having "soul"; an absurd implication.
There is so much I don't have to write because you have written it for me; it must be the "straw man" that disagrees with you because I certainly don't. The second paragraph is mostly what you have written that I agree with. That's the "straw man's" premise that not attending a music school will more likely guarantee having "soul". That is a most absurd implication; but that's the "straw man's" implication, not mine. Leon Thomas studied music at Tennessee State University.
No I have not heard examples of my premise 101 times, but I have heard examples of musicians playing jazz "cliches" 101 times, and they sound "stereotypical" to my ears. Every last one of the jazz players who attended Juilliard that I know of are "good" jazz players; just not all of them are "great" jazz players. I will not provide any examples of anything because they would most certainly be "misinterpreted" the same way you misinterpreted almost every thing I say. I don't know any "street musicians", but I'm sure I would agree with whether you said they were good or bad.
"The Peacocks"; I didn't like the cut you presented, but since Getz is one of my favorite musicians, and I have many of his albums, I might have liked "Skylark" on that same LP. You and I can like the very same LP, but will prefer different cuts. I hope this answers every thing in your post.
Learsfool, I hope you're reading this, because it will save me from responding to your post.
O-10, I don't understand what your constant beef against higher education is? Considering that only recently there was a heated disagreement about this very subject, and one that snowballed and ultimately led to Rok "leaving" the thread, I can only assume that you either have an extremely short memory or are simply interested in being provocative and stirring the pot. I suppose it would be simpler (not easier) to just roll my eyeballs and say "there he goes again with his anti-Juilliard cliche", but as I have said before, I think that a thread like this has a responsibility to be factual and not mislead. Your premise is in error; or, at the very least, very incomplete and shows a lack of understanding of the place and role of an institution like Juilliard in the music world as a whole. We are all entitled to our opinions, but some explanations are in order. For anyone interested here are some facts:
First of all, Juilliard is not considered a top jazz school like Berklee, North Texas, U of M and others. While Juilliard has a fine jazz program, it is a very young program and the school continues to be primarily a Classical music school. Many top and well known jazz players attended Juilliard, but they didn't necessarily attend the school to "learn to play jazz". They attended to learn things like advanced counterpoint, composition, orchestration and pedagogy in order to be better-rounded and more complete musicians. Of course, attending Juilliard does not guarantee that the student will become a great and individualistic jazz player; and, of course there are many great players that never attended Juilliard or any other music school. To say that attending Juilliard will guarantee being a good jazz player with good "jazz soul" is no more absurd than to say that learning "in the street" without a more formal education will guarantee that the player will be a good jazz player. There are far more really rotten jazz players that never attended a music school than there are rotten jazz players that did. The main problem with your premise is the implication that NOT attending a school will be more likely to guarantee having "soul"; an absurd implication.
So, you have heard examples of your premise "101" times. How about some examples of players that you have heard that have attended Juilliard that you don't consider to be good jazz players? Who are you referring to? Otherwise, how do you know? And when you provide a couple of examples I would be glad to provide some examples of "street" jazz musicians who are simply not very good; and I will detail my reasons for feeling that way.
Thanks for the Leon Thomas clip. Greta stuff; been a fan for a long time. What did you think of "The Peacocks"?
*****
"Whatcha Gonna Do When There Ain't No Swing?*****
I have been asking this very same question, to my fellow posters, since this thread started.
Gal Costa: The most unique and recognizable music on the planet. I don't know if it's the rhythm or the language. But you know almost instantly it's Brazilian.
Wesla Whitfield: Great performance. Unaffected voice. Sad and Courageous story.
Be careful guys , the automated A’gon Dispute process wipes out bad feedback of crooks which are ever increasing on here and its no accident. Out a grand in last month from two from two hustlers who listed one thing and sent another useless one , Good Luck to you all, this is my last post on here .
***** her mother was Carline Ray, who played with the International Sweethearts of Rhythm. So she's got some pedigree. ******
Indeed she does. I posted the Sweethearts of Rhythm a while back. Seems like years ago. :) I have an original Publicity Poster from their heyday. Signed by most of the members. My family knew several of the women in the band. I treasure that poster.
Occasionally someone will post a musician who they think is really hot stuff, and when others disagree, they can't understand why. When I say others I'm including some other top jazz musicians. "But he can really blow the trombone", or sax, or whatever. There can be no doubt, that he got an A+ from whatever musical school he went to, and if he's playing a standard, or written music, he sounds fine; but when he's required to improvise, he comes up with every "cliche" in the jazz book. Since I've heard this 101 times, I'm not impressed; personally, I would rather hear someone with more soul, and less school.
A musician who has not been to juilliard, but has jazz "soul", can sound ever so much better than the highly trained and schooled jazz musician. The "people" define who is and who is not a good jazz musician, not some "musical board of education".
Originality ranks very high with my personal taste; that's why I like musicians and music that might not be the most popular. I've got worn out records of this artist, and just the other day, I decided to replace them with CD's. His CD's average $17, and he's got one that cost's $24. There must be a good demand and scarcity.
Leon Thomas is the artist: Thomas died of heart failure on May 8, 1999. He was largely forgotten until a resurgence of interest in soul jazz. Several of his tracks have been sampled in hip-hop and downtempo records.
Been reading through this thread. A whole lotta passion goin' on. My first vinyl jazz purchase was the Buddy Rich "Mercy, Mercy, Mercy" recording back when I was in Junior College. Nixon was president. My first system was a Heath AJ14 FM tuner, a Dyna SCA-35 tube integrated amp, a Garrard Type A turntable with a Shure M3D cartridge and a pair of KLH Model 32 loudspeakers.
I've upgraded since... My rig is up as a virtual system here if you want to look it up.
I've got more Jazz Messenger albums than I care to think about. Dig the West Coast stuff as well as the hard bop and post bop. My 10" Miles LP with "Godchild" still swings.
But I'd like to get y'all hip to a few names I haven't seen here. The first is Catherine Russell, a vocalist I first heard interviewed by Terry Gross on the NPR Fresh Air program. Her father was Luis Russell, who was the musical director and pianist for Louis Armstrong. Her mother was Carline Ray, who played with the International Sweethearts of Rhythm. So she's got some pedigree. She spent a lot of years doing backup work on Motown stuff, but finally got started with a solo career a few years ago, much of it harkening back to the music of her family's era. She gets the best sidemen out of New York and really brings to life old standards like "Darktown Strutter's Ball", "Struttin' With Some BBQ", and "I'm Checkin' Out, Goombye!" Listen to this youtube of her doing "Whatcha Gonna Do When There Ain't No Swing?"
The last vocalist I want to present is something of a celebrity in the San Francisco area. Her name is Wesla Whitfield. She might tell you she's more of a cabaret singer than jazz, but she TELLS a story with what she does. Unlike many, she's even better live, but catching her live will be difficult for many of you, so her recordings will have to do. Check out this version of "Over the Rainbow".
Rok, I heard the classical, but I'm still waiting on the "jazz". As far as "dem dancing shoes"; I looked through my encyclopedia of dance steps, but I couldn't find anything to fit that music. I think that maybe the "Futterwacken" might be appropriate, but I don't know for sure, I think I'll ask Alice.
Was watching a military documentary a few nights ago. It was about the 900+ day siege of Leiningrad. It said that shostakovich was there, and wrote his 7th symphony "Leningrad", during the siege. Turns out that is in dispute, but, I found this while searching for a well reviewed performance of his 7th.
When I read your post about butchering 'standards', I just happen to be listening to Masekela's CD 'Uptownship'. I love the guy, but, he should have left, 'If you don't know me by now' and 'ooo, baby, baby' to Melvin and the Blue Notes and Smokey Robinson.
The great unwashed demanded my return. Folks demonstrating outside my house last night. Shouting and chanting Things like, "The Frogman is out of control", or words to that effect.
As Chief of Jazz Police for Central Texas, I could not ignore them.
Czarivey, I think you may be mistaken. Bob Mintzer never played with Weather Report. He played bass clarinet (as well as saxophone and EWI) with The Yellow Jackets and he did play in Jaco Pastorious' band; Jaco was a member of Weather Report.
Mintzer is, without a doubt, one of the most talented modern jazz musicians. Great composer, arranger, author and fabulous instrumentalist. I posted some of is work here quite a while back and he was unfortunately deemed a "noise maker" by the jazz police. He is, after Michael Brecker, perhaps the best of the post-Coltrane style tenor players. Schubert, you made a very astute and interesting observation: Mintzer has not only studied Classical music extensively, but Classical definitely informs his writing (and his playing). Among many other things, he composed a work for saxophone quartet and symphony orchestra premiered by a quartet that I was a member of and a major orchestra. He's quite a talent.
One of my pet peeves is for an instrumentalist or vocalist to mess with one of the standards, and not follow the script in regard to the emotions of the song. For a song to survive longer than I've been living, it must have something special about it; follow the script or leave it alone and write your song. I'll give you an example with this song, maybe you can think of others, I wont give examples of people who've messed up standards.
"Softly As In A Morning Sunrise" is the way love affairs begin. A fellow walks out of his front door not expecting anything different from yesterday, and decides to knock on the door of a lady he works with. This day happen to be one out of a thousand, and when she open the door, their eyes meet and something happens. From one minute till the next, things are happening that seem to be beyond their control, and they windup where all lovers windup. That's the way it begins; "love", flaming in all it's glory.
The passions that give love, are the same passions that kill love. Next comes "Jealousy"; as sure as night follows day. Mr. Miles Davis told us about that.
Softly as in an evening sunset the light that gave you glory takes it all away. Once he or she is gone; "What am I going to do, I don't know if I want to go on living without her"!
When I was quite young, there was a bar in town whose owner introduced juke box as a way to play music there. It was already modern one, with cd's. The owner must have thought that introducing juke box would be a good idea and that it would lead to a rise of profit, because instead of playing his music, the visitors would need to 'buy' a song. Everyone did, for a while... Than I have noticed, that among all the discs the juke box contained, was a concert album of Led Zeppelin (the same lp I had at home) on which is 26:50 min long version of 'Dazed and Confused' song. In a time when I liked the Zeppelins, I have listened that song maybe once or twice . For those of you who maybe dont know, after about 5 min, J.Page and the bend behind are becoming quite 'noise makers' and that lasts next 20 or so minuts. I am thinking should I put the link here...just a joke. So, from time to time, I would went there, payed 1.5usd and played that song. Would return aprox. 15 min later to see are there any guests there, usually I would not find any. Needless to say, there was always some song that could ruin the atmosphere and soon the juke box was out, free music was back in. I know that this story is childlish, but I cant resist smiling, every time that somebody mentions juke box, it comes on my mind. What is maybe funny to say, some 20 years later I have owned the bar in same area, and sometimes, when I wanted to close earlier I would simply put some jazz music. It worked better than Zeppelin, people would start to go for the door very soon. I am sorry to say, but for what ever reason that is young peoples reaction to jazz in majority of places. ( aldo I consider myself young too, I am 43) My favourite 'bouncer' track... 'I give them five minuts to finish the drinks'...
Alex, this is one dynamite tune. It happened to be on the juke box of my favorite lounge, and there is no telling how many quarters I put in that juke box to hear this. (juke boxes were the first high end) Music sounds so much better when shared with charming people while sipping on something cool.
Gerry Mulligan is most certainly one of my favorite baritone saxophonist, and he burns this tune.
Orpheus, very nice music, thank you. I have no records of japanese music, but I like what you have posted. As for Bud Shank, this looks like the sam line up, but another album?
Alex, I have a worn out record with Bud Shank Titled "Koto and Flute" that I haven't been able to find. This sounds as close to one of the tunes as I can get, but not nearly as good. Bud Shank blew some boss flute.
This might be a little closer, but Bud Shank was on his A+ game when he recorded that because I wore the record out, and haven't been able to replace it.
Frogman, if there was a grand prize, you would win it. Although I knew it wasn't written by Duke Ellington, I thought the band was his because that's what it said. It's for sure I'm no big band expert, as my collection attests to that fact.
Are the musical 'you tubes' getting as fake as the one's with an anaconda wrapped around an elephant or a lion. Since anacondas live in South America, and lions and elephants in Africa, we would have to have a jet setting anaconda.
Thanks for the detective work, maybe Mike Hammer could use some help?
O-10, I love these YouTube mysteries. The alto player just doesn’t sound like Hodges to me. In fact, the band doesn’t sound like Duke’s band to me; especially the baritone saxophone which doesn’t have that wonderful huge sound that Harry Carney had. So, like you, I set out to get to the bottom of it.
First of all, "Harlem Nocturne" was written by Earle Hagen for the Ray Noble orchestra as a tribute to Johnny Hodges and the Ellington sound; which explains why another orchestra might try to sound like Duke’s band. Still, close but no cigar. Eventhough it is often erroneously assumed that it is actually an Ellington tune, there is practically nothing written about a Duke recording of HN, although there are a couple of references to Duke having recorded it; but, no details. Strange. While I will, for now, stick to what my ears tell me, I could be wrong. But, I found this; check this out:
Exact same recording, both times, as the one credited to Duke in your post; this time by the Ted Heath orchestra.
Fee-fi-fo-fum!
One last comment re the alto player on the recording. The very last note of the tune: no way! That is not a Johnny Hodges vibrato. I don’t think the recording in your post is by Duke at all.
Thanks for the opportunity to do a little sleuthing. The tune was detective Mike Hammer’s theme, after all😉
While I couldn't find out who played the alto sax solo with Duke Ellington on "Harlem Nocturne", I did find St. Louis Blues played by Johnny Hodges. All of us can compare the two, and vote whether or not Johnny Hodges did the solo with the Duke.
Frogman, I didn't look it up because that would be cheating, but after listening, I think it was Johnny Hodges. Could you look it up and fine who the alto soloist was. I'll be back to find out.
Thanks for the Phil Woods clip, Acman3. Interesting rhythm section; very good, and with a unique feel. Some may disagree, but just as Latin players playing straight ahead jazz sound a little different than American jazz musicians, I suppose it would be the same for Japanese or any other nationality. This is not a racist thing at all, but a simple observation and as it should be, given the differences in the various cultures. Subtle, but it's there. I liked the intro and how it borrowed from Miles' "Milestones".
O-10, "Harlem Nocturne" is one of my favorite tunes and is to every alto player what a tune like "Body and Soul" is to every tenor player. Very evocative melody. I need to try and find out who the alto player is on the Duke version; doesn't sound like Johnny Hodges.
Alex, thanks for those Shelley Manne clips. Great stuff. Richie Kamuca was a very nice player who is not a heard very often.
Jafant, if you dont have them already, this five albums of Shelly Manne and his Men I consider 'as must have'. I guess they were posted before, but as you mentioned the guy, man cant go wrong by posting this music.
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