Orpheus10, I didn't really explored modern Sub-Saharan African music, but you may be right that most of it moved to the New World.
Slavery, loss of habitat and strange new lands are obvious. But there is at least one more factor that surely contributed - daily interactions with white people. Not all slave owners were bad or mostly bad, but interaction even with bad can give a lot. Black music in Americas developed in a situation of unusual environment. Let's give credit to everyone who often unknowingly contributed. |
Frogman, I also like the complexity and ability to play silence as he did in Mila Repa. Reincarnation is another track from the same album worth listening, different enough.
In Django composition I think, it is my guess, John intentionally stayed somewhat in the background, letting Jeff play his best. In fact, everyone played his best with McLaughlin. I only know one more musician with the same talent - Miles Davis.
Even Paco de Lucia played his best with John, with some exceptions.
I used to like Joe Pass, I said it, he is good.
Returning to McLaughlin, for me there was no album after 1992, Que Alegria, that I like. There were performances from time to time, that's all. |
pryso, your link didn’t work for me so I am reposting in case anyone else has the same issue. Great recording and very important recording. Several years ago I had the pleasure of playing a new composition for large ensemble that Ornette composed for a performance by a dance troupe. He oversaw the production and I was thrilled to get the chance to have a couple of conversations with him. I will never forget some of the interesting (some would say “off the wall”) things that he spoke of re his and music in general. My favorite comment of his was his indication to the ensemble to play one particular passage “ahead and behind the beat...at the same time”. Very unusual and brilliant musician. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OIIyCOAByDU |
inna, thanks for the clips; very nice. McLaughlin’s playing on “Mila Repa” is about as restrained as I’ve ever heard from him. I liked it. I also liked “Django”, a lot. But the clips don’t change my mind about him nor how I feel about him vs Beck. For me, “Django” is a great example of what I tried to say in my response to pjw. As you pointed out, Beck plays the first solo. But Beck also plays the melody of the tune in the opening. Two notes and I could tell it was Beck. Had it been McLaughlin (without my knowing who the players were) I would not had been able to tell. That is one of the things that for me separates Beck from a lot of other players; so much personality. We all listen for different things in players and you obviously like the speed and intensity in McLaughlin’s playing. However, his solo sounds fragmented to me without enough musically logical connection between the melodic bursts that he plays. Beck’s solo has more musical coherence; more melodic connection from beginning to end. Still, neither plays over the changes of the tune with the kind of control of the harmony, nor melodic development that a great jazz player does. That may seem overly critical; but, as always, different players have different strengths, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rLWzIsT4-o0 |
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So many people say "African Music"; there is no such thing. You have so many countries on the continent of "Africa" and they are all unique. Before slavery, there were many villages with their own rhythms. Big powerful countries like Nigeria captured and sold them to the "Americas"; consequently those rhythms no longer exist in Africa but over here. Slavery in the USA beat the African out of the slaves; consequently, I don't hear anything from that continent. They had to re-invent themselves, ergo jazz and blues. If you have keen ears, you will hear African rhythms that exist in Brazil, but not in Africa. Brazilian artists have incorporated them into their music. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDPuQWg_A8QHear that beat, that rhythm, it's African, but you won't hear it in African music from that continent; the people who like and display that rhythm were brought to Brazil. It's unique to the slaves who fled to a Brazilian high plateau and named it "Palmare" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmares_(quilombo)The Haitian music is primarily from "Dahomey"; since Dahomey was involved in the slave trade, not many slaves from Dahomey; only those sentenced to slavery for crimes; but it was a port of exit, and also the primary exponent of "Voodoo". There is very little authentic recorded Haitian "Voodoo music"; you have to go there to hear it. The music is so incorporated into Haitian Society, that kids can play it with a rock in each hand, beating out rhythms on a steel shovel that has been abandoned by the side of a roadway in progress. Some beat out the rhythms while others dance as though their bodies have no bones; it's truly hypnotic; nothing can stop children from enjoying life; what a blessing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTBbC3cMaZgThis is Cuban "Voodoo"; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg1mb6CXDDUI find it amazing that the best African music exists in the Americas. |
alex
Thanks for the Paco link. I already bought the Paco cd w/coryell& mcLaughlin and i also found a video of another concert with them also. |
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I like this mostly because of that universal "Jamaican back beat"; it reminds me of time spent on the Island of Jamaica. I like to share my experiences with you; if this is self indulgent, tell me. This was in the early 70's, and I wanted to get the full Jamaican experience according to what I had read, so I went alone; this wasn't that cruise ship thing, but weeks on the island. It began just like my lifelong fantasy; beautiful Island lady making eyes at me under palm trees and incredible Caribbean star studded nights. Am I dreaming? If so, may I never wake up. My dream went on for days,it had me in the clouds; that is until I detected a posse that seemed to be following with disapproval. When ever you go to a foreign country, there are unwritten rules that don't appear in the travel brochures; don't break them; but how can you follow them if you don't know they exist? Those were the best of times; my lifelong fantasy; palm trees, star studded Caribbean skies, plus that bonus that no fantasy can be without, you got it; and the worst of times; breaking out in a cold sweat from fear was not good; time to go home. After I boarded the plane, I kept looking behind me to see if the posse had boarded to. I could have kissed the ground Miami sits on when we landed. Nevertheless, I lived my fantasy, and that Jamaican back beat brings it all back. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDLCmMV68lE |
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nsp, I have several DVD's of Fela, they are very entertaining. The owner of Vintage Vinyl records introduced me to Fela quite some time ago. Fela was a revolutionary on a continent, in a country where revolutionaries lived very short lives. I say live for a cause, because you're going to die just because........ While the classical jazz in this country can not be replaced, many of the records we discuss have been replaced numerous times in my collection, plus I bought them new beginning in 59; now I need something new, but new music from here just doesn't cut it for me; jazz from other countries is fresher. That's because what they call new jazz here is an imitation of old jazz, or free flowing chaos. While this is an imitation of "Fela"; it's such a good imitation and the people are different, not to mention the Spanish infusion, plus I like the way she shakes her hips. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=embxt0jQ8f4"To Thine Own Self Be True" |
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orpheus10 Great posts on Fela Kuti songs. I would have posted him myself but did not think anyone would know him. I followed his career from late 70's , own a dozen of his lps. IMO the most important artist from the african peninsula . His music was not only was rooted with strong african rhythms but he studied here and spoke of Sly Stone and Miles as influences. His music was comlex but accesible, had great solos but made you want to get up and dance. The cut you posted was a little more out to my ears than anything he did but still excellent.. On top of everything were anti-government lyrics in a country where it was very risky to do that. Long live Fela Kuti's music!! http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fTBtuh8kP0g http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yI6ZZsCElTo |
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Beethoven in Havana: Close, no Cuban Cigar. Cheers |
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**** Why are the women allowed to strut their stuff, fashion wise, while the men are stuck with the penguin outfits? **** Well, I have a strong suspicion that mary_jo is likely to look a lot better wearing gold lame than Rok would. Consider the ensuing visual mayhem if it wasn’t ONLY the “Ladies of the orchestra: Concert Attire Memo” that read “Colorful Formal Gown” 😱. Only for some special (non-subscription) performances, btw. **** What determines the length of the pause between movements? **** The conductor decides, based on musical considerations; not unlike how fast to conduct the music itself. Of course, way too often it’s determined by the knucklehead in the audience who decides that then is the time to have a coughing or throat clearing fit; then the conductor is forced to wait. |
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pjw, you asked me for my thoughts on your three favorite guitar players:
Three great players. Also three extremely different players whose playing I admire a great deal. I say admire because I can’t honestly say that I always like (cover your eyes now, inna) MacLoughlin’s style. It’s not that I particularly dislike it, but I find his propensity for the use of those blazinginly fast note flurries to not always be my cup of tea; and not always appropriate for the style of music at hand. Sure, in the context of the high energy fusion style of Mahavishnu Orchestra from the 70s it definitely works and is very exciting, but when playing something not so high energy (acoustic) it doesn’t work for me. Still, amazing player and amazing technique. Just a personal feeling and preference. Of the three, the one with the most “jazz” chops by a long shot.
I have followed their careers to somewhat similar degrees although Beck remains for me my favorite of the three overall. Please note that I am not saying that I think he is the “best” of the three. I don’t believe in that kind of designating when you have players that play at that high a level. They each have their own voice and it becomes apples to oranges.
My point is perhaps better explained by pointing out that what they each do best, neither of the other two can do at the same level. Can you imagine Hendrix playing a duet with Paco? Or, Beck being able to get the same level of grunge and sheer R&R abandon that Hendrix could? Or McLoughlin backing Beth Hart and getting that perfect light touch and sexiness out of one note? I kind of doubt it.
While the styles of all three can be said to be informed by jazz, I would say McLoughlin’s is the most and Hendrix obviously the least. All three styles are rooted in a Rock sensibility more so than a traditional jazz sensibility, imo. In the end all three are Rock guitarists with different levels of comfort in a jazz bag or in a style leaning in that direction. For me, Beck straddles the line between the two styles the best. Very tasty player. Of course, just my opinion.
Thanks for the great clips. |
Thanks mary jo,
Looks like everyone over here in the states went to bed early last night!
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//Oh was not aware that you live in the Balkan’s. Shipping from there would not be worth it.//
Lol, that was funny. Man, we are in the middle of nowhere...
Thanks Ale for the good words.
Alex’s invitation/proposal for you guys, stands for me too, if you would be anywhere near Split, Croatia, feel free to contact me. I will gladly welcome you/show you around.
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Nsp, yes they recorded an album together, ?Castro Marin'got it on lp, but I have just checked, it looks like that is issued as cd as well... https://youtu.be/v5j67JdYpuQPJW, have not received anything thru Audiogon, try on my mail: alexatpos@yahoo.com |
pjw
big fan of prog rock groups King Crimson, Genesis ( with Peter Gabriel not the later version), Matching Mole, National Health, etc. , but the best jazz-rock group from that time was Soft Machine,IMO. They were all a transition period for me until I went over to listening to jazz 75-90% of the time. Still own all my lps .
As acman stated recently I tired of rock , especially the drumming. There was a good NYC radio station back then that played classic and contemporary jazz that I listened to all the time.
Beck is my favorite ROCK guitarist. The 1st Jeff Beck cut is a classic . Did not care for the style of the second cut . I like the 3 song clip on youtube from the North Sea Festival (tried to post couldn't copy).
Thanks for mentioning Larry Coryell. I knew he passed from a thread sombody on Agon posted when it happended. Just a couple of members posted the thread I thought he would receive more attention. Did you know he was in the Guitar Trio with McLaughlin & Paco and was replaced by DiMeola due to drug problems? I don't think he cut any cd's but htere might be a dvd of that group.
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Alex, PM sent. Pick me a winner! nsp, Yes Sonny Rollins is the man. Every time I cross the Williamsburg Bridge I think of him up there practicing in the wee hours of the night because after he saw Trane play he thought he was missing something. After a 3 year hiatus of practice he came back with an excellent album aptly titled "The Bridge" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtY9hpg7sicSpeaking of King Crimson, here is a good one from them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJ3UnGQCT1E |
Questions To The Frogman: Why are the women allowed to strut their stuff, fashion wise, while the men are stuck with the penguin outfits? Nice performance. Wish you could get them on CD. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HClX2s8A9IE Cheers
What determines the length of the pause between movements? |
pjw
Correct Sonny Rollins is the man!! He is most certainly relevant to his many legion of fans and fellow musicians who have played with him since the late 1940's. Someone Saying he is not relevant is a dumb way of saying they don't like him.
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Pjw, now you got me laughing, send me your name and adress on pm. will send you one on my expanse and if you want I will even sign it for you,ha,ha. Yes, I live in Split, Croatia, on the Adriatic sea...so,if you ever decide to spend some holidays here, you (or anyone of you, affacionados) are welcome... Even bettter, Mary Jo can fix you some sailing yacht and program(she runs such business) to make such visit really worthvile.... https://youtu.be/GcccM2BAshE |
Oh was not aware that you live in the Balkan's. Shipping from there would not be worth it. But if I'm ever in the area I'll make sure to head your way. |
Pjw, those lp’ are not the current modern remasters or prints. Probably you would pay for shipping much more than the records are worth...but if you are interested, just of curiosity, to own a vinyl that was produced in ex Jugoslavia, I could check the shipping rates and send you something...perhaps an album of King Crimson?
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alextapos,
If your really serious you could ship LP's that you no longer have interest in on my expense of course.....
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acman3,
Great Sonny Rollins links. I have the studio CD "East Broadway Rundown" and that song, also the title of the album is a cooker from start to finish. I don't know why anyone would place the label "irrelevant" on Mr. Rollins.
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Steve Coleman is a very intellectual improvisational musician. A saxophonist who’s first inspiration and influence as a youth in the 60's came from Maceo Parker (he liked James Brown), then Charlie Parker and John Coltrane. Suffice it to say he evolved quickly from the Maceo Parker funky soul sax playing into a much more sophisticated sound of improvisational layers of sound bordering on free jazz. He has released a few critically acclaimed albums in the last few years. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6BDz9c8h4I&list=PLqnRvvr2aWWD7FgMFSsFv34BiHRqXtQyo |
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Inna, speaking of keeping a grip on audio funds, I have been debating for the longest whether or not to get my CJ PV-12 repaired (a new transformer); I can live quite well without it, but I would like to hear it again. So far it’s thumbs down.
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"Mas Que Nada", a song popularized by "Brazil 66" takes me back to my youth; while this is a different version, I can dig it; just think, I was about the age of those young ladies when that came out; at this moment I'm right there with them. Those were the days my friend why did they have to end, but such is the way of life. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p7ToiJ5Q9o |
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geoffkait
The great British free jazz pianist Keith Tippett plays piano on Court of the Crimson King and also the second King Crimson disc.
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Yeah, I have all original Dead Can Dance releases on vinyl except the first album. There is a Japanese one on ebay but I probably won't buy it, I just need two songs there. There is also Japanese It'll End In Tears by This Mortal Coil there. It's a compilation containing two songs by Dead Can Dance. Thinking, but again probably not. I keep a grip on my audiophile fund, maybe too tight a grip sometimes. |
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Yes, the last three minutes could've been better, don't know why they did it.
Her name is Azam Ali, Iranian who grew up in India. She also sings classical of a sort.
Have you heard Lotus Eaters by Dead Can Dance ? It is from their last unfinished album from 90ies. Similar to Indus from Spiritchaser. |
Inna, it started out good, but became monotonous before the end; it needed more variation on the theme. I thought it was Lisa Gerrard until I realized the difference; more melodious.
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