It's the stylus...

Not much gets done without one!

I'm on the fence about getting  a  custom, small production LOMC- Van Den Hul profile stylus/beryllium  cantilever. Might make it a Christmas gift to myself. The seller
had a small batch made, and he's touting as the $1K price point killer.

The gears were whirling away, pretty much had a full page constructed and ready to go totally tearing this stylus canard apart when suddenly 

I do absolutely realize that having something crappy anywhere down the line will throw everything off and make what I am saying .meaningless.

Totally pulled the rug out. Thanks. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Ok then, so what'll be the difference (all being equal down-stream), between a ML (Micro Line) stylus on a conical alu cantilever MM, and a Shibata stylus on a sapphire cantilever MC - in this theory, I do wonder... 😏
Michélle 🇿🇦

OK I'll try a microline.

I have finally come to the absolute conclusion that the stylus is the most critical part of any vinyl setup.

Amen.

If the speed is stable, the motor is quiet, the platter bearing spins smoothly, the plinth resists vibration, and the tonearm is sensitive enough to pass along the information gleaned from the grooves, yep...the stylus has a lot of influence on the subsequent sound. However, it’s also really important to match the compliance of the stylus correctly with the effective mass of the tonearm, as well as mating the cartridge impedance correctly with the pre-amp.

Stylus compliance. Interesting. Never even knew there was any. Coulda sworn the stylus was incredibly rigidly attached to the cantilever. Learn something new every day,.

I do absolutely realize that having something crappy anywhere down the line will throw everything off and make what I am saying .meaningless.

+1

When everything is perfect then the contact point has the first and final word, but only till then. But i can live with a better table and less arm or cartridge/stylus
G

Stylus compliance. Interesting. Never even knew there was any. Coulda sworn the stylus was incredibly rigidly attached to the cantilever. Learn something new every day,.

You are correct, of course, and I was wrong.....I misspoke, which I’m sure you are well aware. Apologies if my typo caused any angst.  On the other hand, if it in any way helped satisfy a need to establish superiority, I'm happy to be of some use. :-)

I wouldn't say meaningless but not far off. When I think about it I have a tendency to buy the least expensive cartridge that has the best stylus. The Clearaudio Charisma and Soundsmith "The Voice ES" are two good examples. The Windfeld Ti also comes to mind. The Gyger S, OCL and Replicant are three of the best. For an inexpensive good stylus you need not further than AT's microline stylus.

+1A knotscott

advanced stylus definitely produces audible improvement, but it must be said: I/we can beat a CD with an Elliptical Stylus. Even on a ’not too special’ TT.

AFTER all alignments/adjustments are done right. Alignment is the primary route to success IMO. Personally having the few tools and acquiring alignment skills should be a vinyl lovers goal. Or a nearby friend with those skills, as I am to my friends. I can also set a clock in a VCR!

NEXT, Stylus Shape, with comment: the cantilever stiffness, and cartridge innards/performance make a fundamental difference to what it is given by an advanced stylus profile.

THEN mc/mm phono stage

FINALLY off to the races with the amp and speakers that you already love.

IOW: Advanced; Elliptical; Conical - ON WHAT, IN WHAT BODY?
...........................................

I have got 5 cartridges in active duty:

MC Audio Technica AT33PTG/II MC ML on Boron
MM Shure V15VxMR body with aftermarket Jico SAS on Boron
(had original ML on Beryllium till it shattered)
MM Audio Technica AT440ML, alum tube
MM Shure 97xe Elliptical on aluminum
MM Grado Mono Elliptical on Aluminum

The 3 advanced stylus profiles are superior to elliptical for modern lps, They differ in performance. I keep yapping about the wider separation and tighter channel balance producing improved imaging.

Now I am concentrating on frequency response/involving presentation differences, not as readily apparent.

I recently heard some faint tinkling from my first MC ML: at the end of a track that I never heard before. I need to investigate/compare that to my prior favorite Shure MM SAS, and AT440.

I have favorite tracks that reveal dynamics, imaging, ... Now I will look for tracks that reveal extended highs from my horn tweeters for my 72 year old ears, as well as tighter bass from my 15" woofers.

The tightest bass I remember, was from the Shure’s Beryllium shaft until I dropped/shattered it. SME arm on Thorens TD124. Sadly the Thorens amazing bearing was susceptible to vertical vibrations from my springy floor.

TABLE/ARM. Certainly important, but again, I could beat a CD with the readily available AT120 using MY Cartridges, Shure 97xe elliptical or either of my MM Microlines.



$250. from Adorama

(https://www.adorama.com/aulp120xsbbk.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiA5vb-BRCRARIsAJBKc6IkvDSu4qFotx7x94fsLakubP2B...

$500. for some reason from Amazon

https://www.amazon.com/Audio-Technica-AT-LP120XUSB-Direct-Drive-Hi-Fidelity-Anti-Skate/dp/B07N3S4X3P...

I think I paid $250. years ago, it’s downstairs waiting to give to a friend when I visit him after covid. Happily he lives near McIntosh in Binghamton, NY. Unhappily he and Binghamton just got 42" of snow, his photos are ridiculous.

You definitely need to replace the AT120’s provided cartridge: elliptical, separation only 20db; balance 2.0 db.

..................................................

??What tracks do you use to reveal frequency extensions/tightness??

................................................

MONO: If you have Mono LP's, or will acquire some along the way, as I learned here, there is a definite improvement using a true mono cartridge. All my life I used Stereo Cartridge vis McIntosh Mode Switch, MONO position. This Grado Mono Elliptical is better, sometimes slightly, sometimes seriously better, and everything in between.

As to MONO switches on a McIntosh power amp I’ve had some very interesting results playing my collection of MONO LPs. I have a feeling that the MONO switch on my amp which was properly used in a mono block setup in pair with a second identical MacIntosh power amp. This means that a single audio rca for RIGHT was connected, MONO/STEREO switched to MONO and processed to the RIGHT speaker output. Using this switch when there is a Stereo OR Mono signal to both inputs brings very unsatisfying results. For me the thing that does provide great results with either a stereo or mono cart with MONO LPs is using the MONO switch on the preamp which greatly reduces perceived (not real) surface type noise and brings a mint, properly cleaned and static treated MONO LP to silence.

Dear @skywachr : Years ago in a thread came out this kind of discussion where many audiophiles were in agreement with you: stylus is the most important " link ".

And  @jcarr  posted tha t( Lyra cartridges designer. ) it was not exactly that way and if the stylus is important the one that makes the higher differences for the better or worse is the cantilever and not the stylus: its building material or blend materials, length/dimensions, its shape and the like.

The groove modulations are pick-up for the stylus tip that's atached to the cantilever whom starts to vibrates according those modulations that the stylus pick-up but at the same time the cantilever develops additional " modulations/resonances/vibrations " that the transducer takes in the same way as if were true groove modulations.
Through the cantilever happens many things along those that obviously goes in heavy signal degradation and it does not matters if the stylus tip is the Replicant 100 or an conical one.

In the other side all those different stylus tip shapes in reality never can't pick-up the 100% of the whole information recorded in the groove modulations not on pivot tonearm designs but even not in the LT ones. 

There is no way ( no matters what ) that the cartridge stylus set up be in perfect match/even/mimic what the cutter head did it during the cutting recording process and with the best stylus tip as Gyger2 or Replicant 100 or Micro Ridge is even more difficult to been " there " that with more easy stylus tip as ellipthical type.

Certainly that @jcarr knows a lot more on the overall subject that almost any one of us including you and your experiences with all your TTs/tonearms and cartridges you own or owned through your audio life.

You can be sure that everything the same an ellipthical stylus tip on boron cantilever will sounds better than a line contact type in aluminum cantilever.

I remember very clear when I just changed in the Lyra Clavis daCapo cantilever with a new boron ( same stylus tip shape. ) instead the original ( the re-tipper advise was ruby instead of boron. Obviously I don't took his advise. ) cantilever and the sounds reproduction differences for the better were nigth and day. Latter on that same cartridge was re-tipped by VdH with boron and VdH stylus tip and things were just ok: almost the same.

I think @jcarr was rigth in this specific issue but..............is an open issue.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Raul, I know that when Pramanik, the engineer who was at Bang and Olufsen decades ago, designed the beryllium cantilevered stylus ultimately named after him, he designed it to mimic the shape of the actual cutter head. 

Dear @skywachr : The designers of stylus tip shapes is what all are doing for some years but even if mimic the cutter head shape does not means will follows/mimic the LP groove modulations.

R.