Guido - 250ASP uses traditional power supply while 200ASC has SMPS. 250ASP delivers 250W at 1% THD while 200ASC is 230W at the same 1% distortion level. Bel Canto specifies S300 and M300 amps as 300W (200ASC) because it is at 10% THD. I concluded that Rowland is a little bit more mature.
250ASP is still a little stronger where it counts - it can drive 2 Ohm impedance while 200ASC needs 3 Ohms minimum.
I would not pay so much attention to power. In order to listen twice louder one needs 10x more power but changing listening distance by 2 is equal to changing power 4x.
It is therefore very difficult to say how much power is needed. Room size and absorption also plays big role.
Macrojack - do you have PC-1? If so, how did it affect the sound? |
Thank you Kijanki, do you mean to say that 200 AS incorporates SMPS on-module, while 250 ASP relies on external PS, which can be traditional as well as switch mode? |
Guido - Both have power supply built-in and connect to mains. 200ASC has switcher while 250ASP has traditional power supply. The strange thing is that there is no large transformer on the module - only something that looks like big choke on EI type square core. I checked block diagram and it shows that they rectify and filter mains and feed it to DC/DC converter. DC/DC converter is a switcher so no matter how you slice it both use switchers. Judging by size 250ASP is a little more robust and it shows in ability to drive lower impedance than 200ASC.
I had opportunity to buy cheap REF1000 from the dealer who was loosing Bel Canto line but was afraid of 1000W with my modest size speakers. On the other hand I don't listen very loud. 200ASC is described as sweeter but 1000ASP is praised to be a little more coherent and focused. The difference is very very small and the main thing is raw power that they deliver. Stronger Mosfets are always slower therefore switching frequency has to be adjusted to avoid losses and bandwidth has to follow. 1000ASP has -3dB bandwidth of 38kHz (8 Ohm load) while 200ASC is rated 60kHz (same load). |
I've heard the JRDG Capri/102 driving speakers with "only" 92 dB sensitivity and there was some trouble with too much bloom in the bass. That went away when we upped the power to 500 watts. With 108dB sensitivity I would imagine this combination to be exceptional.
Blindjim was inquiring about lots of power with sensitivity around 93dB. That's a totally different issue vs. speakers with 108dB sensitivity. Yes, I suppose that you could drive them with 1000 watts, but why? It may do no harm, but since watts cost money, all other things being equal, it makes sense to not go overboard with power, once the speakers' needs have been made.
All that said, IME, 93dB sensitivity speakers benefit from 1000 watt amplification. Would 700 watts be sufficient? Maybe so, but after you get past the first 250W, amps seem to come in 250 and 500 watt increments.
Dave |
I bought my PC-1 at the same time I bought the Capri and 102. I hooked them all up together. I have never compared them to anything else. I have never listened without the PC-1. The 102 does not see anything below 400 Hz. I have a Perreaux PMF 1850 to drive my woofers from 400 down to around 45 or 50 Hz. My system doesn't reproduce from 20 to 20K. I don't even want to know how loud it can play. I'm quite happy but might someday upgrade to a Continuum 500 or just get my Audio Mirror stuff out of the boxes again.
I don't know what modules are in use or what thinking went into their selection. It amazes me that so much concern is expended over such things by people who smoke cigarettes and eat fast food. Way too much emphasis is put on cosmetics, parts lists and pedigrees and way too little on the passive enjoyment of music. Critcal listening, as so many of you like to call it, is not passive or enjoyable. It is anal and obsessive and just gets in the way. Too many armchair quarterbacks in this game. |
"people who smoke cigarettes and eat fast food. . . "
hmmm, I may be an anally retentive listener. . . but I do not smoke and do not touch fast food. . . want to share some flat Chinese noodles stir fried with tofoo and Tuk Ku Choy MacroJack? (grins!) |
Yes. Prefer toasted sesame oil.
And I suspect you are aware that most others do not live as you do.
Do you deliver, Guido? I'm not willing to travel. |
Macrojack - strange coincidence, I just finished cooking shiitaki mushrooms with beans in sesame oil with ginger and toasted sesame seeds. Can you make it here in next 5-10 min. I will wait. |
Hmmm, looks like my circle of health conscious, Asian-food-loving, Icepower-module-twiddling friends may be greater than the threatened empty set after all.
BTW, Tofoo did not accompany the flat noodles with Tuk Ku choi tonight. . . slivers of tender pork lightly stir-fried with Chinese dried mushrooms of the genus Russula, soya sauce and garlic did instead. Of course, I did perfect my wife's fine preparation with a teaspoon of hot Chinese chili paste for good measure.
Now that all's well with the World. . . back to the music. Ms. Uchida playing Mozart on my 91dB sensitive Vienna Mahlers (V1.5 of course). Amplification courtesy of my 500W per channel Icepower-based. . . oops, but you already know that. (grins!)
G.
PS. Smile people, life's too short for long faces. . . |
Kijanki - It appears that I missed your deadline. For next time it would be helpful to know where you are.
Guido - You describe food with the same lascivious glee as Hannibal Lector. That makes me wary of your menu. |
Spectron - Awesome. Spectron amps deliver a natural and realistic sound for pretty much any genre. Immediately noticalbe are these attributes; transient speed with no overhang - resulting in a tremendous sense of control but in a very natural way, tonal rightness, lack of distortion, transparency - these are some of the descriptors that come to mind. The spectrons never sound cold or uninvolving. I've had the highly-touted Nuforce Ref9s and the Spectron amps sound righter to me. Although I don;t currently own the Musician III MK2 (yet) I do have, among other amps, the original Spectron 1KW (serial#2 John's personal amp)and serial #1 of the Model 10 preamp(a superb preamp) The 1KW, 'old buzzard' that it is, positively kicks the crap out of most amps - and I own or have owned some top amps. It makes me laugh the way people take everything the reviewers say as gospel. Some audio mfrs / press have tried to convince everyone that Class D is not reasdy for prime time. The best Class D amps are really and truly superb - and I do still have excellent hearing. Just listen to some little in-car and in-tv amps and marvel at how good they can sound for such a basic installation. that gentlemen, is Class D. |
Oh Shucks Macro. . . now my dark secret's out! G. |
Macrojack
Thanks as always, for the predominately insightful notes… albeit, 100 wpc isn’t 500 or 550 wpc. I do appreciate the efforts and time though
Kijanki - G-man
One practical part of this all is to have an enjoyable, user friendly exp. Not long ago I had a 250-400 wpc amp, w/26 db gain, and a pre w/23 db gain. I still have the pre…
The outcome with reportedly 89 db 6 ohm nominal’s combo did not allow for sweeping movements of the vol knob. The useable range of the knob became vastly reduced to an arc of around 20% of it’s normal span… or less.
This made for a tad more tedious use. Only little very quick zaps on the remote could be had to adjust the volume, thus very fine, precise sound levels may or may not be had. By the time the vol knob was at 10 am or so, one needed to be outside the home to prevent hearing loss with extensive listening periods. Normally, I’d not get much above the 9-9.30 range routinely.
That past exp while producing some really great sounds, hampered the exp with me always having to worry with getting to the ‘just right’ listening level… and of course, the ever present worry I could somehow nod off and somehow spin the vol up inadvertently some great degree and damage the speakers.
I see some wisdom in having finer control of the vol. Higher powered amps in my past reduced this greatly. I don’t recall getting my vol past 2pm in fact… and that’s a far cry from only being able to move it from 7.30AM to 9-9.30 before it’s very loud, and at 11 it runs you out of the house.
I figure impedance played a part in that scenario too. The BAT amp purported 100K… 50 + 50 on the xlr’s. I was only running RCA via adapters so 50K ??, back then.
The Wyred 4 report 62K roughly. Not sure as to Rowland, with some sort of imp matching device inline with the gain section.
My tube pre is 400 ohm output. My Onkyo Rec … well I’ve no idea but I’ll guess it’s higher by a good bit, given how it and the tube pre act with my SS amp… which may or may not make good sense to compare things that way.
Anyhow, I’d sure like to keep using at least half of the volume dial… not just 10-15% of it. I’ve noticed this vastly more sensitive vol knob action with SS amps having both high imp (100K) and good power, 150 to 250wpc into 8 ohms…. The higher the power the less I can move the volume knob.
Consequently, a 600 or 1000+ wpc into 4 ohm amp does imply a similar circumstance may well prevail again, were such an amp (s) be employed… or does this not reflect high powered ICE amp implementation?
Oshag
Not being the sort that unquestionably takes the notes of any reviewer as golden, I look for supportive comments from other's I trust more... here. Hemce my posted concerns.... duh.
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Jim, I just checked the manuals. The input impedance of the JRDG 102 is 48KOhms with a 27dB gain. The 250Wpc 201 monoblock has 40KOhms input impedance with user selectable 26db and 32db gain. Have not checked the W4S, but I suspect it's going to be similar to the 201 monos. Seems to me that with your speakers, besides impedance matching, the key may be a pre with moderate gain and very fine granularity on the volume knob. 0.5dB resolution or a little better may work. G. |
Blindjim - I have similar problem. My 100W/8 ohm amp is driven by the Benchmark DAC1 used as line stage (volume control). Benchmark allows to adjust gain (jumpers inside) in 10dB steps but for some reason, I can't explain, it affects the sound. The best sound is at 0dB position (loudest - equivalent to nominal 26dB gain) what gives me full power at around 11 o'clock (89dB speakers).
Output/input impedance ratio have nothing to do with the power (very small division). Rowland uses instrumentation amp at the input (THAT1200) providing 40k input impedance, at least on my amp. |
Kijank
I’m pretty sure the relationship between output imp of the preamp & input imp of the amp do play a part in how easy or hard the preamp has to work to supply sufficient gain/amplitude of the signal to the speakers
From the Ten Audio review of the W4S ST 1000 (125wpc @ 8) ….
“The Wyred 4 Sound stereo amplifiers have a completely custom balanced FET input stage that raises the input impedance from 10k Ohms, which is a difficult load for some preamplifiers, to 60.4k Ohms.”
(this article was accomplished with 107db speakers @ 4 ohms)
With appox 1 db steps on the tube pre, and way less sized ones on the HT pre (which BTW has a higher output imp), I’ll likely still worry about the actual amount of control I’ll have with such a combination.. I’d prefer at least a third of the vol range… no less.
I’m also getting the impression an ICE amp with 500 + wpc @ 8 is over kill, given my current and likely future, loudspeakers. As with either circumstance, $$$ does matter too, and there’s no sense in overbuying an amp solely for the security of the power bands generosity with real world applications in mind for it’s use.
As I’m sure through the use of some discretion on my part, and system concerns, more power isn’t so much THE issue as is the sonic signature of the amp and it’s integration with the system… as with either the Dodds or the Odyssey SE, the Sonata’s never appear as if they are running out of gas or seem strained… there good headroom available with either amp… 120wpc or 200 wpc @ 4 ohms, appx.
Both the pre and the receiver also drive a DD 15 when in use, which I’m sure contributes to the input imp amounts for the amps. Currently I can’t reach the 11 AM n position with the 120 wpc tube monos… (that off the 4 ohm taps!) ….and tha’ts way loud! Too loud for any extended listening periods for sure! Comfortable for the next room however.
I think an important aspect here is practical usability. Feasibility and power reserves aside, the bottom line is just how will the amps be used I think. In a setting such as I have, a medium sized room (2600 cu ft.) , moderately high eff speakers, and leaning towards being a mature listener, inordinate amounts of applicable power aren’t the primary focus… or so it appears presently.
If there are any other considerations I am still missing, I’d sure prefer hearing them…
I’d also care to hear from any other ICE amp owners as to the actual sonic signatures of their own installations, comparatively speaking of course.
Thanks much so far… you folks are super. |
Blindjim - I'm sure there are preamps that won't drive well low input impedance (like 10k) of the power amp but it should be rather sound quality than its level. Assuming high output impedance - let say 1k and input impedance of 10k it will divide signal very little, 0.8dB to be exact.
I tried different jumper position on my Benchmark and the next one (-10dB) gives me best volume knob range but the worst sound (not as crisp and vivid). I checked Benchmarks manual and found that output impedance is the highest at this jumper setting = 1.6k. It should not make any difference with my 0.5m IC since it has only 5pF per foot but it does. I cannot explain it. Amp has 40k input impedance.
I've read reviews of 501 including some of the people who bought it after 201. Sound is pretty much the same but 501 is less congested at higher levels. Hearing scale is logarithmic so there is not much difference for us between 200W and 500W but a lot of difference for the speakers. I remember old concerts when bands used standard 100W Marshall amps and it was pretty loud. Now band like Rolling Stones count power in tens of kilowatts. For their concert in Chicago city had to update stadium electrical grid to provide necessary current.
A lot of power is good for one event but I listen at relatively low volumes most of the time. Lower volume makes for the better sound, at least in my room. My room is acoustically bright and has very tall ceiling. At low volumes I have good imaging and tone balance but at higher volume I start hearing more of an echo (multiple reflections) that before was to low to hear. In addition sound becomes brighter - not good thing in my setup.
Class D has this peculiar thing about listening at low levels that it keeps good sound/composure even at very low levels. My previous class AB amp was loosing highs and bass plus resolution was getting worse. I found this also mentioned in one of class D reviews. |
BlindJim, the W4S appears to have a slightly higher input impedance than the JRDG 102 (60.4KOhms vs 48KOhms). You might as well give W4S a try. Regarding your concerns for volume knob listening position, if you get a pre with a continuously rotating volume control and a fine resolution, e.g. 0.5dB or better, you should be able to raise the volume very gradually even with a more powerful amp like the W4S driving your sensitive speakers. G. |
Thanks so much K... & G...
The Thor likely isn't going anywhere. It's working great, the remote sensor is entirely exposed and secured now and that was the sole issue with this unit that wasn't up to snuff IMO.
I've yet to hear another pre with comparitive sonics that I could possibly attain... in this lifetime, anyway.
About the only thing I'm considering changing out or to, are the speakers. I might make one more move up from these at some point. Maybe.
Adding another amp such as one of these W4S models kills two birds with one stone... the HT gets a lift, and the 2ch gets some diversity... from time to time.
Naturally this ICE/Digi amp HAS to be a step up from the Odyssey Stratos SE... I suspect it/they will be.
How much of a step up and what sort of change remains, as is usual, the primary variable.
The notion these amps are moderately priced, run time costs too are inexpensive, and as well are not hot in use, isn't hurting either.
The only prob what so ever, is I'm not seeing any preowned ones up for sale, and the better binding posts are another $100 upgrade. Additionally, W4S said the other day another version is about to be out soon which will carry a better esthetic... no mention of interior changes were made though and that'll up the price too I guess. |
>>06-06-09: Dcstep
All that said, IME, 93dB sensitivity speakers benefit from 1000 watt amplification<<
Truly one of the dumbest statements you'll ever read here. |
Bill said:
"Truly one of the dumbest statements you'll ever read here."
Hi Bill, I'm glad to see that you crawled back out of your hole. One day you'll remember how to contribute something positive to a discussion. Right now you seem focused on trying to manufacture something negative.
Dave |
Now Dave, don’t let your lack of experience and mid-fi listening skills cloud the issue here. Please stick to the subject matter which you, in fact, initiated.
So, please tell all owners of 93dB speakers reading this thread why they need 1000WPC.
Thanks in advance.
This should be a hoot. |
Dave, using your words, please "come out of your hole" and answer the question.
You already have one foot in your mouth; I'm sure there's room for the other.
Thanks in advance. |
Bill, my first post in this thread answers your question.
Dave |
Answering my own Q as the result of all the input here and elsewhere, I have to say "No. Probably not, if within a reasonable context given system parameters or at least, speaker requirements."
Having some more horse power on tap is a good thing when it comes to the subject of amps, usually. Be it simply plain old watts, or immediately available responsiveness … ala current.
I feel enormous power isn't the primary, ‘end all be all’, consideration. Neither do I don’t feel it’s a bad thing what so ever. I believe it comes down to correctness more than anything else.
Watts, after all, do cost money. Some watts cost a lot more money than some others. Why then over spend, seems to arise as a significant factor in choosing the amp (s) for the speaker nearly as much as the quality of all them watts. Being sought does.
Consequently, IMO, it is as much a question of quality, as it is one of quantity.
The numeric values sort themselves out with respect to speaker needs and amp characteristics and their outputs if both speaker maker and amp maker have been forthright in assigning each their proper specifications.
The qualitative side of the amplifier coin is far, far more vague.
In seeking out a solution for my HT desires/needs (For me, it’s awful hard to see the difference between those two concerns at times), I felt perhaps a digital solution might be best after all.
In pursuing accounts from owners, and online editorials I ran across some interesting new topologies in that area aside from digital (ICE) amps. Keeping in mind availability on the new, and pre-owned front, tried and true designs as well and my own preferences, I’ve decided to give BK Butler a shot at satisfying the multi channel amplification duties for now. Naturally, this might well change but on paper, the TDB 5150 looks like the choice that interests me most and does appear to satisfy my system needs.
The digital amps pointed me towards some new thoughts in multi ch amptechnology, no transformers to speak of, going greener, operational temps, and overall size, which normally aren’t Audio Nut concerns as a rule, but they certainly do apply more and more lately.
Admittedly, I did pursue in spite of these newer notions in amplification some more venerable and proven themes from ATI, Anthem, Parasound, Wyred 4, Rowland, and Odyssey. Choosing to pull the trigger on this ASAP, provided limitations as to choice, so did the actual age of some amp selections, prices too caused some to be disallowed. Integration too was an issue… space too was a concern. Seeking to stay as current as possible brought me to pick between another likewise 3 ch newe, Odyssey amp and an available butler 5150.
Several other aspects of the design are very similar between these two ideas on amplification, and the tube facet of the butler configuration set it on top of the field.
I very much like the Odyssey amp I own, for it’s sound versus it’s price. It does indeed overachieve sonically. The butler and Odyssey use the same Sanken bi polar devices in their output stages, have similar power ratings, operational values, and accordingly run reasonably cool to warm at most…. Add the ‘tube’ element the TDB 5150 design contains and at an attractibve price point, my decision was about made for me… try the tubed gizmo from BK.
So the choice has been made and the unit will begin it’s undertaking in due time. It will also be a single bullet for all five channels rather than splitting up the duties between other amps, thus hopefully adding some greater cohesiveness and tonal symmetry across the sound field. I suppose that counts for something too.
Thanks for all the input, and thoughtful responses posted herein. By the end of the month I should be able to say how well it handles HT amplification responsibilities in my configuration. Hopefully this will become a more than satisfactory addition…. I’ll let you all know for sure.
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Blindjim - watts cost money, you're absolutely right. 100W amp is better than 200W because sound level is about the same and for the same money one can get much better 100W than 200W amp. Power in class D is cheap but not everybody likes the sound. |
Kijanki
yep. Like myself and near everyone else has said at some point... There's watts... and then there's watts!
Hoepfully, Watt this new amp will do will be good enough.
If not I'll do Watt everyone else does that doesn't have either a decent outlet nearby from which to do business and hear things... '.... the Audiogone Shuffle'
Perhaps in the interim, I'll hit that red neck retirement jackpot and get a handful of those Pass xa amps or Rowlands, or such!
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Blindjim:
You have asked a couple of times for impressions of the sound of an ICE amp. Here goes; my Wyred-4-Sound with everything listed in my system, sounds CLEAN. I do not hear the amp as a separate component.
Prior to the W4S I was running the Emerald Physics (must be bi-amped) with a Sunfire Cinema Grand and I could hear its' effect (using either current or voltage taps) and I did not like it. It was not bad, it was just not to my liking. Prior to that the Sunfire was driving a pair of Talon Audio Khites and it was vary pleasing to my ear. All other components in my system were the same as listed including the Levinson 380-S pre-amp with its' 0.1 db gain control.
Listening volume level with all of the speakers and amps has remained virtually the same (+/- a couple of db).
My best guess as to why the W4S sounds better to my ears (and better means that I don't hear it), is probably due to the W4S multi-channels being constructed as multiple mono blocks in one container. I could be wrong, as I have made mistakes before. Once I even moved away from Analysis Plus cables, thinking greater cost must mean better sound. Wrong, wrong, wrong! As with the W4S, I do not hear the AP cables, just the recording.
This spring, I had the opportunity to listen to the top of the line offerings from B&W (driven by MacIntosh) and TAD (driven by Bel Canto) resulting in my being very happy with my system. For +/- 25% of the cost of the above speakers, electronics, and cables, I don't have to try to listen "around" or "through" the system to hear the music.
Yesterday I started with Beethoven Piano Concertos, moved to The Beach Boy's Pet Sounds, the Significant Other voted for Rod Stewart, I got a reprieve with a mix of early 70's R&B, and finished with SRV Blues at Sunrise. All of it was clean, clear, and in my living room. Over all, a very nice day with no thoughts of "If I changed amps...."
Best regards,
Dave |
Consttraveler
Thanks. that is interesting. The butler is likewise a nulti ch mono setup in one box... using also leading edge technologies.
Setup and matching is certainly key to getting sound you can truly enjoy... in your room... with your tastes and ears.
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If You have no hands, to turn the volume down?
And there only 1 single setting? FULL VOLUME or NOTHING?
Then Yes You have a problem.
Otherwise,NO, there is no such thing as "TOO MUCH POWER" |
