Is too much power in an amp really a problem?

Thanks a whole bunch so far everyone…

The insights are super, the sound of it is key… and the words on how numbers apply & translate were outstanding.

Guido, I liked the review on the VA speakers.

Well, keeping booze and boozed up friends away from the remote control, and gear is not a consideration… and I learned a few years ago about handing the remote to the ‘girl friend of the month’ while I’m otherwise occupied.

I seldom if ever really crank up the vol. My hearing is sensitive, the room is not cavernous, and my preffs aren’t towards paint peeling these days… Once in a very great while I’ll zip things up for some Def Lep, ZZ or Gordon Goodwin, Illinois Jacquette, etc… but only temporarily… a song or two.

I doubt I exceed 95 - 96db +/-, on avg during those few minutes.

…and who want s to hear K D Lang 7 tony B at 98db, anyways?

I may have not been 100% clear as to my fears/worries regarding the power similarities or diffs from ICE to SS… I merely wish to get a feel for about which gate I’d best be in when deciding. Current levels.. eg., 150 +/-; 250 +/-: 500 +/-; etc.

True enough, the voice of the power plant is a larger concern. I sincerely loved the big ol’ chunky VK500 w/BAT Pk. On 88-89db speakers.

I love the sound of the 120 wpc MK II Dodd mono’s on the 91-93db speaks I have now… with the Thor pre of course.

The Odyssey SE 150 +/- either with the Onkyo receiver or Thor ain’t bad either, just not even close to the all tubes setup… but quite liveable.. Especially if no repetitive A/B’ing is going on… and it doesn’t.

So given the speed of recovery ICE’s have, I’m getting the imp here a 250 into 8, 500 into 4, should be easily enough ICE.

Now, as usuall the preponderance regards ICE’s tenor… it’s sound. I get the imp too, they are image happy little boxes, dynamic, and possess very good headroom.

But are they in general, dryer or cooler sounding than SS?

A predominate amount of the time this new pair of monos or stereo amp will serve purely as main ch’s for HT.

Now and then, I’d use them with the Thor for pure audio.

Short list needs are rain free mids, easy yet revealing top ends and good low req response.

The Wyred 4 sound units look attractive, the reviews sound awesome, and the price is right for a ST500. IMO.

Again… Thanks to everyone who has contributed so far…
Consttraveler, Ptmconsulting, Ericjcabrera, Jaybo, Sprink, Viridian, Shadorne, Dodgealum, Mapman, Kijanki, Markwatkiss, Larryi, Jaymark, Joeylawn36111, Spectron, and Dcstep. I sincerely appreciate it.

To all other’s… thanks. I know you gave it your best shot.

I doubt anyone in this online membership, and pursuing this hobby for any length of time who have had success in parting together a system or 3, won’t have some allegiances, loyalties, fondness, or kind words for the gear they feel made those efforts bare fruit. Add to that many of us here are over the age of twelve acting accordingly as it were, so IMO there is no need to give precautionary notes as to just where one member’s fondness lays. It’s like the sound we strive for, it is too ambiguous and ambitious to define exactly. Nor do I suspect it matters given any veracity propels the statements posted when help is sought. For that matter too, Even dealers well vested experiences and as well intentioned remarks are welcome IMO. Several sellers have already joined in here and I see it as a plus.

There’s really only two sorts of people in this world, the one that spreads happiness and joy where ever they go, and those who spread happiness and joy, when ever they go.

Those with ‘agenda’s’ for or against a product line or other’s, always seem to illuminate more so themselves than those they wish to spotlight, with that self same torch, so to speak.

Personally, I don’t need any such direction or detection. Even for me, spotting a person with less than virtuous motives, or otherwise detractors, isn’t difficult at all.

With most of the music we experience being made in the first 20 wpc or so, the notion of power seems over played at times. This note on how much is being done with so little came as a big surprise to me as I’d never taken the time to actually look at the relationship between power and the sound I heard.

My experience informs me having on hand substantial reserves in that regard are most often beneficial and prove themselves out as an added layer of peace of mind… not to mention a seamless and involving presentation.

As necessary as is power, too much of it can undermine or affect the voice of the audio recreation, as I have seen in the past, once or twice… with a thinly oriented articulated and more often than not sterile depiction of the recording. It can come off flat or lifeless.

Maybe it’s sheer coincidence but when I’ve had rigs where I can only just barely crack the throttle open and the sound is already approaching unbareable levels, I’ve not liked the resultant sound. Conversely, when I’ve been able to ‘get into’ the amps power range a bit more, I’ve been far more pleased.

As I understand it, where the two most important facilities for listening come into play are, the volume knob, and good sense.

Most of the time, I’ll win half that battle. Sometimes, both! Remember, even a blind acorn can find a squirrel!

All the ‘preamps’ at muy disposal have from 0.2 to 1.0 ‘db’ step incremental controls.

With the input here and by talking with a couple makers of these ICE outfitted power plants the primary concerns have been addressed satisfactorily. Now I just gotta plug one in and see for myself.

If John Potis’ review of the Wyred 4 Sound ST 500 ( http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue39/wyred4sound.htm ) is even 90% accurate, that amp will do the job…. Whether or not I like how it sounds in my system (s) is a whole other thread perhaps. Much can be done too to massage a components presentation. So as I have a couple of options for where it will reside ultimately, or for how long, I’m looking forward to giving one of these interesting products a go asap.

Macdadtexas

We paused for some further station identification and a few words on our sponsors.

I apologize for this interuption and now return to the show... (with any luck at all)

...ICE AMPS and their similarities & relationships with real world speakers, mainly in the moderate to high eff arena... 91-93db or greater.

Can a 'lots o watts ICE amp make beautiful music with reasonably high eff loudspeakers?

or should the two never meet?

Better yet...

How many high powered ICE users here have high eff speakers with dubious impedance loads? Like the sonata IIIs ... 93db & approx. 4 ohms -/+ ?

Macrojack

Thanks as always, for the predominately insightful notes… albeit, 100 wpc isn’t 500 or 550 wpc. I do appreciate the efforts and time though

Kijanki - G-man

One practical part of this all is to have an enjoyable, user friendly exp. Not long ago I had a 250-400 wpc amp, w/26 db gain, and a pre w/23 db gain. I still have the pre…

The outcome with reportedly 89 db 6 ohm nominal’s combo did not allow for sweeping movements of the vol knob. The useable range of the knob became vastly reduced to an arc of around 20% of it’s normal span… or less.

This made for a tad more tedious use. Only little very quick zaps on the remote could be had to adjust the volume, thus very fine, precise sound levels may or may not be had. By the time the vol knob was at 10 am or so, one needed to be outside the home to prevent hearing loss with extensive listening periods. Normally, I’d not get much above the 9-9.30 range routinely.

That past exp while producing some really great sounds, hampered the exp with me always having to worry with getting to the ‘just right’ listening level… and of course, the ever present worry I could somehow nod off and somehow spin the vol up inadvertently some great degree and damage the speakers.

I see some wisdom in having finer control of the vol. Higher powered amps in my past reduced this greatly. I don’t recall getting my vol past 2pm in fact… and that’s a far cry from only being able to move it from 7.30AM to 9-9.30 before it’s very loud, and at 11 it runs you out of the house.

I figure impedance played a part in that scenario too. The BAT amp purported 100K… 50 + 50 on the xlr’s. I was only running RCA via adapters so 50K ??, back then.

The Wyred 4 report 62K roughly. Not sure as to Rowland, with some sort of imp matching device inline with the gain section.

My tube pre is 400 ohm output. My Onkyo Rec … well I’ve no idea but I’ll guess it’s higher by a good bit, given how it and the tube pre act with my SS amp… which may or may not make good sense to compare things that way.

Anyhow, I’d sure like to keep using at least half of the volume dial… not just 10-15% of it. I’ve noticed this vastly more sensitive vol knob action with SS amps having both high imp (100K) and good power, 150 to 250wpc into 8 ohms…. The higher the power the less I can move the volume knob.

Consequently, a 600 or 1000+ wpc into 4 ohm amp does imply a similar circumstance may well prevail again, were such an amp (s) be employed… or does this not reflect high powered ICE amp implementation?

Oshag

Not being the sort that unquestionably takes the notes of any reviewer as golden, I look for supportive comments from other's I trust more... here. Hemce my posted concerns.... duh.

Kijank

I’m pretty sure the relationship between output imp of the preamp & input imp of the amp do play a part in how easy or hard the preamp has to work to supply sufficient gain/amplitude of the signal to the speakers

From the Ten Audio review of the W4S ST 1000 (125wpc @ 8) ….

“The Wyred 4 Sound stereo amplifiers have a completely custom balanced FET input stage that raises the input impedance from 10k Ohms, which is a difficult load for some preamplifiers, to 60.4k Ohms.”

(this article was accomplished with 107db speakers @ 4 ohms)

With appox 1 db steps on the tube pre, and way less sized ones on the HT pre (which BTW has a higher output imp), I’ll likely still worry about the actual amount of control I’ll have with such a combination.. I’d prefer at least a third of the vol range… no less.

I’m also getting the impression an ICE amp with 500 + wpc @ 8 is over kill, given my current and likely future, loudspeakers. As with either circumstance, $$$ does matter too, and there’s no sense in overbuying an amp solely for the security of the power bands generosity with real world applications in mind for it’s use.

As I’m sure through the use of some discretion on my part, and system concerns, more power isn’t so much THE issue as is the sonic signature of the amp and it’s integration with the system… as with either the Dodds or the Odyssey SE, the Sonata’s never appear as if they are running out of gas or seem strained… there good headroom available with either amp… 120wpc or 200 wpc @ 4 ohms, appx.

Both the pre and the receiver also drive a DD 15 when in use, which I’m sure contributes to the input imp amounts for the amps. Currently I can’t reach the 11 AM n position with the 120 wpc tube monos… (that off the 4 ohm taps!) ….and tha’ts way loud! Too loud for any extended listening periods for sure! Comfortable for the next room however.

I think an important aspect here is practical usability. Feasibility and power reserves aside, the bottom line is just how will the amps be used I think. In a setting such as I have, a medium sized room (2600 cu ft.) , moderately high eff speakers, and leaning towards being a mature listener, inordinate amounts of applicable power aren’t the primary focus… or so it appears presently.

If there are any other considerations I am still missing, I’d sure prefer hearing them…

I’d also care to hear from any other ICE amp owners as to the actual sonic signatures of their own installations, comparatively speaking of course.

Thanks much so far… you folks are super.

Kijanki

yep. Like myself and near everyone else has said at some point... There's watts... and then there's watts!

Hoepfully, Watt this new amp will do will be good enough.

If not I'll do Watt everyone else does that doesn't have either a decent outlet nearby from which to do business and hear things... '.... the Audiogone Shuffle'

Perhaps in the interim, I'll hit that red neck retirement jackpot and get a handful of those Pass xa amps or Rowlands, or such!

Answering my own Q as the result of all the input here and elsewhere, I have to say "No. Probably not, if within a reasonable context given system parameters or at least, speaker requirements."

Having some more horse power on tap is a good thing when it comes to the subject of amps, usually. Be it simply plain old watts, or immediately available responsiveness … ala current.

I feel enormous power isn't the primary, ‘end all be all’, consideration. Neither do I don’t feel it’s a bad thing what so ever. I believe it comes down to correctness more than anything else.

Watts, after all, do cost money. Some watts cost a lot more money than some others. Why then over spend, seems to arise as a significant factor in choosing the amp (s) for the speaker nearly as much as the quality of all them watts. Being sought does.

Consequently, IMO, it is as much a question of quality, as it is one of quantity.

The numeric values sort themselves out with respect to speaker needs and amp characteristics and their outputs if both speaker maker and amp maker have been forthright in assigning each their proper specifications.

The qualitative side of the amplifier coin is far, far more vague.

In seeking out a solution for my HT desires/needs (For me, it’s awful hard to see the difference between those two concerns at times), I felt perhaps a digital solution might be best after all.

In pursuing accounts from owners, and online editorials I ran across some interesting new topologies in that area aside from digital (ICE) amps. Keeping in mind availability on the new, and pre-owned front, tried and true designs as well and my own preferences, I’ve decided to give BK Butler a shot at satisfying the multi channel amplification duties for now. Naturally, this might well change but on paper, the TDB 5150 looks like the choice that interests me most and does appear to satisfy my system needs.

The digital amps pointed me towards some new thoughts in multi ch amptechnology, no transformers to speak of, going greener, operational temps, and overall size, which normally aren’t Audio Nut concerns as a rule, but they certainly do apply more and more lately.

Admittedly, I did pursue in spite of these newer notions in amplification some more venerable and proven themes from ATI, Anthem, Parasound, Wyred 4, Rowland, and Odyssey. Choosing to pull the trigger on this ASAP, provided limitations as to choice, so did the actual age of some amp selections, prices too caused some to be disallowed. Integration too was an issue… space too was a concern. Seeking to stay as current as possible brought me to pick between another likewise 3 ch newe, Odyssey amp and an available butler 5150.

Several other aspects of the design are very similar between these two ideas on amplification, and the tube facet of the butler configuration set it on top of the field.

I very much like the Odyssey amp I own, for it’s sound versus it’s price. It does indeed overachieve sonically. The butler and Odyssey use the same Sanken bi polar devices in their output stages, have similar power ratings, operational values, and accordingly run reasonably cool to warm at most…. Add the ‘tube’ element the TDB 5150 design contains and at an attractibve price point, my decision was about made for me… try the tubed gizmo from BK.

So the choice has been made and the unit will begin it’s undertaking in due time. It will also be a single bullet for all five channels rather than splitting up the duties between other amps, thus hopefully adding some greater cohesiveness and tonal symmetry across the sound field. I suppose that counts for something too.

Thanks for all the input, and thoughtful responses posted herein. By the end of the month I should be able to say how well it handles HT amplification responsibilities in my configuration. Hopefully this will become a more than satisfactory addition…. I’ll let you all know for sure.

Consttraveler

Thanks. that is interesting. The butler is likewise a nulti ch mono setup in one box... using also leading edge technologies.

Setup and matching is certainly key to getting sound you can truly enjoy... in your room... with your tastes and ears.

I used Bel Canto solely as a reference point. They aren't on my short list for consideration. Only Wyred 4, Rowland, & Spectron are. The latter two probably will be cost prohibitive though.

As much rhetoric is being cast about here with regard to Rowland, it's merits and perhaps some suspicious intents, which I've dismissed completely from my mind, would anyone care to compare any of these Lillyputian Giant killers to other more well known topologies and/or brands of amps by way of sonic diffs?

I should think that would glean certainly myself, and any other's on the digi ICE fence more palpable insights on what to expect.

Like for example: my xxx was as dynamic as my Krell, but sweet as my Carrisa on the top end.

or ... My xxx was as warm and musical as my SET mono's in the mids but far greater slam in the lower regions... etc.

guido, among others here has already seen in this instance anyways, I'll not be diving into a pair of Spectron Musician s, rowland 312s, or BC 500 - 1000 monos, anytime soon.

had I that sort of duckets to spend I'd be looking at Pass' XA 60.5 or 100.5 amps probably first... then the Spectron's & Rowlands thereafter. Maybe.

Thanks eternally.

Thanks so much K... & G...

The Thor likely isn't going anywhere. It's working great, the remote sensor is entirely exposed and secured now and that was the sole issue with this unit that wasn't up to snuff IMO.

I've yet to hear another pre with comparitive sonics that I could possibly attain... in this lifetime, anyway.

About the only thing I'm considering changing out or to, are the speakers. I might make one more move up from these at some point. Maybe.

Adding another amp such as one of these W4S models kills two birds with one stone... the HT gets a lift, and the 2ch gets some diversity... from time to time.

Naturally this ICE/Digi amp HAS to be a step up from the Odyssey Stratos SE... I suspect it/they will be.

How much of a step up and what sort of change remains, as is usual, the primary variable.

The notion these amps are moderately priced, run time costs too are inexpensive, and as well are not hot in use, isn't hurting either.

The only prob what so ever, is I'm not seeing any preowned ones up for sale, and the better binding posts are another $100 upgrade. Additionally, W4S said the other day another version is about to be out soon which will carry a better esthetic... no mention of interior changes were made though and that'll up the price too I guess.