Is this why my analog rig isn't so hot?

Once again, I'm deeply humbled by all your replies. What can I say except to say I feel very lucky to have come across you all and reading your input.

Thank you!

What's surprising, though, is the Teres - or the non-recommendation of it. This is indeed a sought-after table right here at the Audiogon. If I remember right, this is the second time that I've heard someone giving it a thumbs-down. He had a Teres, tried everything to build around it, and finally, to his dismay, had to give up the table. He settled for a Mitchell.

So now I'm back to square one and don't mind it at all. At least I could read up on all the tables recommended and audition them with an open mind (and ear). And telling myself the most popular (or prettiest) isn't necessarily the best one!

Regards,
George

Raul said "I have more than 35 years in testing analog rig and, beyond what Ken told us, the 70% to 80% of the quality of the sound reproduction comes from the tonearm/cartridge combo"...

I would have to side with Ken on his interpretation of this one. That is, it spoke volumes about Raul's point of view.

As far as i'm concerned, changing the table that ANY arm / cartridge combo is on will alter the tonal balance, harmonic structure, noise floor, sense of timing, steadiness of pitch, etc... These all have to do with the support structure that makes up the plynth, the mass and resonant characteristics of the table on the whole, the accuracy and steadiness of the motor, the play in the bearing / platter, etc...

As you might surmise, i disagree with Raul's comment whole-heartedly. With that in mind, i can see why we differ on our thougths about the Denon 103 series of cartridges. We obviously have very different experiences and ways of looking at things.

As a side note, the Stanton 881S has a compliance rating of appr 35. It is obviously best suited for a low mass arm. Sean
>

George,

If I am thinking of the same person who gave up on the Teres, it does come to mind that this person did concede that perhaps he didn't have the best suited stand for it. Every table has it's fans and detractors. But as we all know this whole audio component choice thing is highly subjective. I believe that Ken is attempting to recommend a table to you based on what he believes you would want to hear. Short of a side by side audition of several tables I suppose that is the best most can do. If you think that he does know what you want to hear then maybe his advice is good for you. But I think that it is a big stretch to go from there to condeming several respected makes of tables. Anyway, good luck in your search for what sounds good to you.

Raul,
What's the difference between static compliance and dynamic compliance value? some cartridge company gives you static compliance and some dynamic compliance. What does all this mean? I just know that my cartidge is a high compliance according to the manufacutres website and from professional reviewers.

George, with your system as it stands, how much can you turn up the vol pot on your passive pre? 8 o'clock? 9 o'clock? 12 o'clock?

Compare this when playing CDs and LPs.

Also what cables are you using between the source (phono/CD) and your preamp?

I don't think making sure the loading is correct in the phonocube is wasting time. You already have all the equipment George, you might as well make sure you've got it properly dialed in... how else can you make a reasonable decision about the sound of your rig? You'd have to do the same with another TT anyway...

Quite a fascinating conversation, George is certainly getting an earful. If I were in his position, I would certainly explore all reasonable no-cost or low-cost solutions before dumping my whole rig and starting over.

I'm not saying Ken is wrong about the Basis. I've never heard one as I mentioned, but I'm no fan of acrylic tables and I have no trouble believing that adding the suspension could impair clean, strong bass response. I've written about the theoretical danger of that several times. OTOH, I've never heard anyone call the Basis bearing "loose". I thought it had a rep for being one of the best. ??

Ken,
You didn't say why you'd avoid Clearaudio or Teres or make any model distinctions. Why the blanket slams? How about some specifics. What have you heard?

In the case of Clearaudio I suppose it might be the acrylic thing again, but what are your objections to Teres? With the exception of the one person already mentioned by Dan_ed, the response of every Teres hearer has been positive. In side-by-sides with Linn, Basis, Clearaudio and Nottingham a comparably priced Teres has usually come out on top. I don't know of anyone who's A/B'd a Linn vs. a Teres and preferred the Linn.

I can tell you for certain that the two Teres rigs I've heard have snapping dynamics, unlimited HF response and clarity, and clean bass to well below 20Hz. (Mine plays cleanly down to at least 16Hz, the lowest I can hear, and I suspect larger models would do even better.) As Dan_Ed said, proper support is vital, as are a suitably matched arm, cartridge and phono stage.

Which gets us back to George's problem...

Hi Doug,

>>Mine plays cleanly down to at least 16Hz, the lowest I can hear, and I suspect larger models would do even better.<<

I find this statement bewildering, I wonder how you could hear and then measure this low from vinyl, and clean bass to boot. Let's forget that analog never went that low (33-34hz max) and that most analog recordings are in the +40hz range, what I don't see is how your system could even approach 16hz. The 803 Nautilus at best is capable of 60hz-70hz of real bass and anything below isn't really natural bass. Yes, I'm sure you get some boom boom below that but even B&W doesn't claim 16hz.

I SERIOUSLY want to know how do you get clean bass down to 16hz!

>>I've never heard one as I mentioned, but I'm no fan of acrylic tables and I have no trouble believing that adding the suspension could impair clean, strong bass response.<<

I did mention upper bass hump of Basis suspended tables but it doesn't mean that all suspension is evil. Take the Goldmund Reference for example, its one of the finest tts ever made and its suspended. Regarding acrylic, most Teres tables are also fully or part acrylic, I'm not saying that I like them but you do! High quality acrylic isn't all bad if used correctly, the Reference's platter is a sandwich of metal and acrylic but it doesn't have any of the sonic defects associated with this material today. I agree with acrylic's coloration when it comes to many popular tables these days. Its probably because they use acrylic for cheapness of design and production rather than anything else.

>>I've never heard anyone call the Basis bearing "loose"<<

I said that because the bearings are loose. Please go and play with one of their tables and you'll see what I mean. People are buying up these things and never questioning their quality due to lack of experience or because of some review. There's no mystery here, pick one up in your hand and judge it like you would any other object costing thousands. Ignoring the brand propaganda could you pay that much money for anything else made this way?

Here I must concur with Ken that there are other brands with the same faults. What I disagree with is his blanket dismissal of high mass tables, again its all a question of design and implementation. Some of the best turntables ever made have all been high mass units.

Mama

George, I can't help but be curious - after receiving all of this information and helpful advise, what course of action do you think you will do to solve your problem. :-)

Dear friends ( all of you ): I have to return to by first two answers on the George subject: it has electronics problem and to get the Myabi cartridge, let me explain it:

George: go to the source, the phono cartridge, is where all began, we can't do anything for an improvement in the signal when that signal already pass through the cartridge the best we can do is not to degrade the signal, almost imposible, or better: degraded less. George if you want a better quality sound from your analog rig then you have to start with your phono cartridge, I already told you the Myabi because there will be a sinergy with your audio system and this is a plus, but there are other top options in phono cartridges. If you go with the Myabi you don't have to worry about the tonearm match ( you already have it ), this subject is extremly important and sometimes missunderstanded.
George you don't have to go around and around and ....., you have to go to the source: phono cartridge. After this you can ask: how I can help for degraded less that critical cartridge signal?
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Yourmama,
Very LF signals are easy to find on vinyl. Just break out your HFN test record and play the resonance measurement tracks. Paul and I both hear clean test signals down to 16Hz on our Teres 265/Tri-Planar VII/Shelter 901. On actual music the bass is tight down to low organ and string bass notes. Those aren't at 16 Hz of course, but 32 is not a problem - 'Zarathustra' and Bach's 'Pasacaglia' come to mind.

FWIW, before we added the Tri-Planar we had a modded OL Silver. Nothing was audible below 24Hz on the HFN record IIRC, and even 32Hz tones were both rolled off and muddy. The Tri-Planar seems bottomless, which I suppose it should be for the price.

I'm not sure why you think the N803's can't go below 60-70Hz, they're specified as flat to 33. Of course those 24/18/16 Hz test signals become progressively less loud, but they seem pretty clean to our ears. If someone else's N803's are boomy or absent from 33-70Hz then there's definitely something wrong with their system or their room.

In addition to our tonearm change here's another firsthand example: my old SAE amp, though it had nearly as many wpc as my c-j, couldn't take the N803's anywhere near as low without losing control. In fact one of my first A'gon threads was about finding for a cure for boomy bass. The amp was the answer.

Also, I've heard Cello's very nice system, which includes a Rel Storm. Obviously that goes lower and stronger than my N803's, but the difference is only in the 32Hz and below range. The N803's are just as full and tight as his system from there up.

Newbee,
I trust George gave up and bought concert tickets long ago! Or at least I hope so.

Dear Doug: I agree with yourmama on this 16Hz subject: for any one can " hear/feel " a clean 16Hz frecuency it has to have not only the audio system that has the capacity to do it but it has to have the room for that frecuency and their harmonics can " form ".
I don't know nothing about your room but your audio system ( like a whole system ) certainnly ( I'm sorry, but the english is not my native language ) can't to reproduce a clean 16Hz frecuency by any circunstances. It is not a matter that " 16Hz test signals become progressively less loud ": by physics law your loudspeakers can't do it, period. As a fact there are only a very few subwoofers that can do it in the right way.
Doug, here you are talking about to reproduce the most difficult task for any audio system even with subwoofers.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

So what are we hearing then?

harmonics of different fundamental frecuencies.
Raul.

Yourmama,
I forgot to remark about one of your points: some Teres tables include acrylic and some don't. Mine doesn't. Check my system.

Doug,

I guess I need to clarify my 60hz-70hz comment, I know the B&W published specs, but that's not the same as true bass. Of all the speakers that I know I can only think of a couple which can do even 40hz of real bass. As Raul so nicely explained, bass is extremely difficult to reproduce and it has all to do with physics. You need volume to reproduce bass and most speakers are too small to do that, only something the size of a Wilson Grand Slamm can start to approach 40hz bass, that's if your room can support it. Low bass is going to be a bitch, the best sub 40hz bass I've heard was from giant horns of 7-8 meters long, even then there was precious little below 25hz. I'm not counting fundamental frequencies, just true bass. I'm sure you've seen a pipe organ or two in churches, please note the size of the pipes that reproduce the low notes!

Raul- You mentioned subwoofers that could reproduce proper low bass, what have you heard?

Mama

Dear Raul,
Which harmonic of a 16Hz test tone is lower than the 32Hz organ tone at the beginning of 'Zarathustra', which we hear quite easily?

On the HFN lateral resonance track Paul and I both hear pitch-differentiated test tones at 24, 22, 20, 18 and 16Hz. On the vertical resonance track we hear and distinguish 25, 23, 21, 19 and 17 Hz. I do not claim our system can reproduce these tones with flat frequency response. But reproduce them it can and does.

This is the physical reality on our rig in our home, which you admit you've never heard. When theories don't explain observed realities then it's time to revise the theories. I am fully aware that this process can be uncomfortable.

You have often urged me to listen before passing judgement. That was good advice.

Regards,
Doug

Dear Yourmama: Bag-End ( I can't remember the model ),a pair of Velodyne HGS-15 and a pair of HGS-18.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

oh my. seems i've stirred a hornet's nest.lol

Let me get a couple points out right off the bat.
I've had contact with George for several years via email and thru his regular postings on the 47Labs mailing list. As a result,I've been privvy to more of his tastes,viewpoints, concerns and goals than would be apparent to those just reading this thread. He is not a client but because of shared interests and thoughts exchanged, consider him a friend. As we've covered many of the same related issues before and over a period of several years, I probably relate more directly and personally to George than I would a stranger.
My shortlist recommendations to him are based on what I perceive are HIS own personal needs and requirements gathered over this multi year timeframe.If asked for shortlist recommendations to a different person of different goals,system and tastes, my response would be different than I presented to George.
I also personally own and use 47Labs phonocubes in my home system and business. It's function is quite different to that of a conventional phono preamplifier device.One does not alter the load but rather chooses from one of two versions( standard and Hi output ) to match the *gain* based on the internal impedance of the coils of the cartridge being used. Deviating from the ideal internal impedance *range* simply DOES NOT change the tonal balance or basic character of the phonocube. It mearly means that you have an appropriate amount of gain and can thus optimumise the S/N ratio.

best,
k

Yourmama,
We are talking at cross purposes and very much OT of course. My apologies to NGeorge.

I merely mentioned that a Teres 265 can reproduce sub-20Hz notes when properly equipped with a suitable arm and cartridge. I made that remark only to demonstrate one of the capabilities of the Teres brand, which you had previously dismissed out of hand without explanation.

I'd still like to hear your reasons for that dismissal, which might get us back to the topic of this thread.

Cheers,
Doug

George, I can't help but be curious - after receiving all of this information and helpful advise, what course of action do you think you will do to solve your problem. :-) - Newbee

Newbee,
I trust George gave up and bought concert tickets long ago! Or at least I hope so. - Dougdeacon

LOL!

Hi All (I mean all you great guys!),

Today, I took the first step and ordered a Shelter 501 II. I guess it's the consensus that to properly dial in the Phonocube's gain, this cartridge is a 'safe bet.' Since a recommended lower output voltage would make it more compatible (0.4mV against the Glider's 0.83mV); including checking with Yoshi as well (Doug, the "mass" issue is not that critical here, he says).

And I also listened to a Nottingham - with a Shelter 501.

There will be more tables and systems that I will audition (because I know now what to look for), I guess I'm heading in the right direction.

So, in honor of the 28th Modern Olympics, I salute you all!

George

doug-

Re:
>>>"You didn't say why you'd avoid Clearaudio or Teres or make any model distinctions. Why the blanket slams? How about some specifics. What have you heard?"<<<

Slam? How did you get that and Do you REALLY want me to elaborate?
If you'd like a list of decks that I've had *in my home system*, I'd be more than happy to oblige you but I think it would have the opposite effect from what you're after.
NO deck is perfect,dear sir.EVERY turntable is an amalgam of the designer's own value system,his skill,vision and resources and they are always tempered by the realities of physics, production, ergonomics and marketablity . There exists a wide variety of brands, models & design implemetations available to suit a broad range of listening styles, tastes, budgets and expectations.Let's leave it at that.
Or not.
; )

Regards,
Ken

George, I can't help but be curious - after receiving all of this information and helpful advise, what course of action do you think you will do to solve your problem. :-) - Newbee

Newbee,
I trust George gave up and bought concert tickets long ago! Or at least I hope so. - Dougdeacon

LOL!

Hi All (and I mean all you good guys!),

Yesterday, I made my firt move: I ordered a Shelter 501 II. I think this is a "safe bet" since it conforms to the Phonocube's gain and specs. Having a cartridge that stays closer to the recommended output voltage (0.4mV against the Glider's 0.83mV); including checking with Yoshi of its compatibility, I'm positive it's a sensible move. (Doug, the "mass" issue is not that critical here, he says.)

And, I also listened to a Nottingham - with a Shelter 501.

With more tables and systems to audition, I'm now more confident because I more or less know which ones to look out for.

So, in honor of the 28th Modern Olympics, I salute you all!

Best,
George

Caterham1700,
I asked:
"You didn't say why you'd avoid Clearaudio or Teres or make any model distinctions. Why the blanket slams? How about some specifics. What have you heard?"

You responded:
"Slam? How did you get that and Do you REALLY want me to elaborate?"

I got that from your third post on this thread (8/12), where you said, "Don't even think about a Clearaudio or Teres.", without further explanation.

If that wasn't a blanket slam then what was it? And yes, I REALLY want you to elaborate. That is why I asked. I'm asking again.

Doug

Doug,

RE:>>>
"If that wasn't a blanket slam then what was it?"<<<
Duh? Sensistive,aren't we?
I wrote above:
"My shortlist recommendations to him are based on what I perceive are HIS own personal needs and requirements gathered over this multi year timeframe.If asked for shortlist recommendations to a different person of different goals,system and tastes, my response would be different than I presented to George."

You consider my statement a "slam" just because I don't feel that the Clearaudio or Teres would suit George's requirements and taste? The Clearaudio decks exhibit very similar traits as his current Basis and the Teres decks in the 3 interations that I've heard in my home system have qualities leaning in the opposite direction than where I perceive George would like to go. My feeling is that George would appreciate a deck with more life and directness than does a Basis,Clearaudio or entry to upper-mid level Teres.Clearly, you are enamored of the Teres presentation style. Just don't expect it to be universal.Again, NO deck will suit everyone.

regards,
k

* acrylic base model, acrylic/lead shot and acrylic/lead w/wood plinth versions in my own systems and an assortment of other models at various show demonstrations at CES & VSAC

Maybe George is ready for a KAB modded 1200, Ken!

Hi Psychicanimal,

What is the KAB modded 1200?

George

It's, IMO, the most cost effective high performance production deck currently available:

Kab Audiophile Standard high performance turntable

Mine has just the Groovemaster, fluid damper and outboard power supply along with some Marigo dots on the gimbals. I am a hardcore salsa listener and this deck delivers the neutrality, speed, attack and linear decay that the lesser belt drives don't. Although my creature isn't up to speed w/ the latest mods, it does rest on a Dennensen air suspension platform, which takes performance to a whole different level.

I know Kevin personally--he's an authentic, true to the music, creative individual. He's well versed in analog reproduction. If you give him a call you'll thank me...

***

Hi Psychianimal,

If I insert the KAB in my system, will the Inmates still respect me? :)

Anyway, I used to have the Technics SL-1600. It was used (according to the ad) in most radio stations (FM, I think). I don't remember how it sounded, but I do remember it was always advertised in the Playboy magazines. It was quartz driven. The arm - when you press to start - would know whether it was a 45 or an LP because it had a sensor - hell, it was an unassuming piece of high-tech machine!

Later on through the years it was the Yamaha PF-800 (I think), and finally a little more accepted table, the Rega.

I haven't gone very far ahead, have I? Or is it just a state of mind?

Regards,
George

Nobody messes w/ the modded 1200 anymore. Not here, not in the Asylum. You'd have to spend around $5K to equal or outperform it. There's quite a few 1200 modders out there...Tracy from Barbados, Nightdoggy, Alex Yakovlev (the last two electrical engineers), Zaikesman (read his review in accessories), other Asylum inmates and yours truly. Alex installed a Rega RB600 tonearm in his 1200 and reverted back to the stock tonearm!

I used to have a 1700, then went to a Yamaha P20, Pioneer PL-540 and then looked at belt drives some four years ago. One day I came up with posts of people modding their 1200's, in Japan, Europe, USA. I started researching and found out about certain Needledoctor salesman who, being able to have any belt drive in stock at dealer cost, uses a modded 1200. He told me about Kevin and the rest is history...

With the external power supply and good power cords (AC & DC) the 1200 plows effortlessly through complex passages. It's very fast, stable and with linear decays. Try listening to piano solos and check out if the notes fade linear or whether they wobble. Playing hardcore salsa will also prove to be a SERIOUS obstacle course. A lesser belt drive will flunk either test. A kick ass belt drive or idler wheel deck will have no problems whatsoever. It doesn't have to be a direct drive. Speed/rotational stability under real loads is the name of the game...

Ken,
Thank you for elaborating on your advice to George re: Clearaudio and Teres. That's all I was asking for, something specific to fill in your original statement, which you must admit was rather terse.

As for what I'm enamoured with or how sensitive I may be, you hardly know me well enough to offer a useful opinion.

Regards,
Doug

Nobody messes w/ the modded 1200 anymore. Not here, not in the Asylum. You'd have to spend around $5K to equal or outperform it. - Psychianimal

I don't doubt your assessment regarding the KAB 1200. If a $950 table could equal or surpass one that costs $5000 - that's a hell of an improvement. But who would trade in his "hight-end" table like the VPI or Clearaudio for a mass-produced Technics 1200 wannabe?

Unless there's overwhelming support of this table, I'm afraid I would stay with the status quo. Perception is just too hard to break down.

If those gentlemen you mentioned, including yourself, could make a mediocre Technics 1200 into a $5,000 monster, you probably would mod other tables.

Can you mod my table?

I'm more curious than convinced, actually, so please don't feel I'm a snob - of which I'm never one.

Thanks and regards,
George

George, you should talk to Kevin. He's the one that profits from selling modded 1200's, not me. He also knows a LOT more than me...

Perception is indeed a problem. Most people perceive Bose speakers as the bomb, while most audiophiles perceive that a little motor on a plinth and a plastic/glass platter will deliver a high end musical experience...

To answer your question on modding, it can't be done. The farthest you could go with a regular belt drive would be to install a load sensing DC motor on a flared platter. The closest to this would be a modded Oracle. The Technics uses a sophisticated circuitry to sense and correct changes in speed/loading. It does so @ some 3500 times per second. The economies of scale have permitted Panasonic to sell such technology at a low price. The unit has some inherent weaknesses and that's what the mods address.

I'll leave you with this thought:

In my analog rig I don't wan't 'analog' sound. I don't want an artificially enhanced soundstage, 'warmth' nor slowness. I want my analog and digital rigs to sound as close to each other as possible. Both must sound like recorded music. I use a modded direct drive TT and a modded ( by Dan Wright ) belt drive transport. The weaknesses of each rig have been addressed to achieve a rather uniform sound. They still have their own idiosyncracies, but the sound is right on. My next door neighbor is a 20 yr kid and he says that you'd never know it's records that one is listening to--that it sounds like CDs. What a compliment!

>>My next door neighbor is a 20 yr kid and he says that you'd never know it's records that one is listening to--that it sounds like CDs. What a compliment!
<<

Really? I'd take it as an insult- I don't know too many people trying to make their vinyl sound like CD's. If that's the case, why are you even messing with vinyl- CD's are certainly more convenient.

George,

I still want to know what kind of MUSIC you listen to, and at what levels. All the posts in this thread (almost) ignore the one thing we need to know. We know Psychic likes Salsa, Doug does mostly classical, momentarily I'll tell you what I listen to, but what do YOU listen to?

I don't know how you can listen to anyone who doesn't know this. Ken seems to be the only one who knows, but at least Raul asked. As we should all know, different TT's, arms, and cartridges work best with different types of music. To some degree, this will affect the rest of the analog chain.

Now I listen to mostly R&B, acoustic rock, and classic rock. My Teres setup works very well for what I listen to. I also listen to jazz and classical once in a while. Now while I'll admit that Zarathustra ain't Zappa, my TT (and the rest of my system) works very well for both.

So, I'll give you my input: Try the 501, and make shure you give it at least 100 hours to break in. I would have tried a Denon 103r first, but since you ordered the Shelter, do it, as it SHOULD be a better cartridge. Also, I think any quality low-output cartridge will work better, period, as long as you can impedence match it to the Phonocube, and make it compliant with the arm.

I don't think you need to dump the Basis, and I disagree with anyone who says your TT is the weak link. Let's face it, you've got 3 grand tied up in it & the arm. You'll have to spend a LOT more to significantly better its performance.

And if that does come to be the case, get a Teres.

Hi Joe,

I have set up the Shelter 501 on the RS-A1. Out of the box, the Shelter does seem a little more extended. So far I have 5 hours into it (I'll be quiet in the next 95 hours!). Set up was a 45-minute job.

I listen to all types of music, although I like British Invasion (not very sophisticated, I'm afraid) because I have mostly music from that era - notably original Black & Yellow Beatles Parlophones. (That's another story.)

The recommended internal impedance (what's that?) of the Phonocube should not be more than 10 ohms. The 501 is at 12. So it's not that far off, right?

I also like classical music, or beginning to like it, especially after 9 PM. My sense of serenity starts at that time!

I'm still tinkering with the VTA, however, since that's where the RS-A1 is standing: on a sunken hole in the Basis table. So getting the right height is a little tricky. One thing I notice, though, is that tracking force sounds fine at 1.6 grams.

Regards,
George

George,

The light tracking weight is great, it seems to get much more out of a cartridge. I try to keep my 103r under 1.8 if I can. My next cartridge will most likely be a Shelter, unless I can find a good deal on an RSP. As far as VTA goes, get it where you like the sound and forget it. Even thought I bought the nifty little VTAF, I rarely "screw" with it now.

Impedence sounds good, should be OK. I hate screwing around with that kinda thing. That's why I bought the Supratek.

As far as classical goes, ask Doug! He is very knowledgable about what pressings sound best. I'd like to hear those Parlaphones! I have a bunch of BI lps that I break out once in a while, just to remember the "old days" when I started buying albums. Some great pressings!

Ah, the things we go through....

Crespo, I'm going to take you to school. Stay tuned...

Sweet!!! Just what I need- more school!

Michael

Crespo, CD’s have *perfect* pitch, ultra low noise floor and excellent dynamic range. Vinyl cannot match digital in those departments. When glare and other artifacts are removed from a digital playback system, the resulting sound is stunning. So stunning that a friend of mine with a CEC TL1 & a couple high performance DACs hasn’t yet set up a new Nottingham Anna Log turntable because he’s truly satisfied with his digital rig ( *seductive* is the term he uses ). One of the 1200 modders has a unit that is beyond the KAB mods and e-mailed me his modded CEC transport/DCS DAC and the TT sound pretty close to each other. People with higher CEC transports and high performance DACs are extremely satisfied. The Black Gate capacitors in my modded belt drive transport finally broke in this week. The improvement has been nothing but breathtaking. Speed, attack, decay, noise floor and soundstage have improved in no small measure. My 20 year old neighbor used the term “the music wraps you” to describe the unexpected change. Perhaps things are different with a 30-50K turntable, but in the real world digital sound can be so good we’re just talking about “different flavors”, as my friend with the Nottingham Anna Log says. I strongly suggest you do your homework. Too bad Danny Boy turned you down. You'd start to see the light...

As for why I listen to records, the answer is because it's a medium. The vast majority of my music is in LP format, something like 900 LPs vs 200 CDs. Such is life. I started working on improving digital because I got tired of seeing exhorbitant prices in eBay of classic Latin LPs that were readily available on CD for $15 or so. My efforts payed off and I learned from the people I've mentioned thtat I'm on the right track (unless I buy a $30-50K TT instead of a house).

Jphii, I listen to all kinds of music except racist and satanic. If I only listened to salsa I would have horn speakers, not my Modwright Swans mini monitors. When I took my 1200 to Kevin for installation of the outboard power supply I took along my favorite salsa record. Kevin has his own DIY horn system with a 7 feet wide bass horn. WOW!!! WOW!!! WOW!!!

The modded 1200 is a neutral sounding deck and will prove more adequate than a lesser belt drive to plow through complex orchestral passages . That’s exactly where stylus drag effects would be most noticeable. A properly designed & built TT should not be able to play one type of music better than another.

With psychic power & primal intensity,

***

Psychicanimal: I think that you don't know many things about CD technology and you speak like the sales people that when the CD born: " perfect sound for ever", like you that people really did not know anything about the CD limits: first than all: frecuency response for this 16 bits technology: 22khz, this restriction in the high frecuency response of the CD is one of the parameters that's why the CD sounds hard at the top and with a less air than the LP, this is why the CD sound is an unnaturally sound, it is not the " natural music sound " like the LP sound. Anyone that hear ( blind ) a CD knows it is hearing a digital sound ( your trainy brain don't do a mistake ), maybe your brain it is already accustom to the CD sound but this is very far from: " perfect sound for ever ". There are other parameters inside the CD technology that prevent that " perfect sound ..", like jitter, filters at the extreme frecuencies, etc....
BTW, you speaks of Black Gate caps in your CD transport, this means that the signal pass inside those caps ( a bad design ), dear friend the best cap is NO CAP.
You speak too of the soundstage improvement in your audio sound reproduction: I want to ask you: when you go to some place to hear/dance salsa ( live ), how can you perceive that " soundstage "? where do you have to seat ( stay ) for perceive it ? in which manner do you hear it?, BTW: how many hours of live music do you hear every week?
The CD medium is a " mass medium " a " business/comercial medium " and today a part of this CD medium it is at its top of its technology by high-end standards at a very high price ( 10K to 40K ), but even at this level can't compete with a similar analog rig.
Now, if you want to talk about 24bits digital technology then that is another issue, here this technology it is , at least, at the same level of the analog and in some circunstances can surpass the analog sound reproduction.
Now, about your KAB: till today ( including KAB ) the only direct drive turntables that stay at the top end of the belt drive technology are: Technics SP10MK3 and Denon DP 100, period.
Regards and always enjoy the music.
Raul.

Psychicanimal: I forgot: the Rockport Sirius, too ( direct drive TT ).
Raul.

Raul, I don't care what you think--no offense (perdona sa'e).

Psychicanimal: Sure you don't care. But if you want to improve your life you have to learn to learn, if not stay where you are: nowhere.
Tks and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Raoul, just because *you* do not understand what I'm stating does not mean that it doesn't make sense. You don't even know where Dan Wright placed the Black Gate capacitors in my transport and you spin off with a stupid comment that only makes you look like an ignorant smart ass.

Your 'contribution' has no place in this thread. If you had a little common sense you would stop at the comment that someone with a $10K Nottingham Anna Log TT has kept it in the box because his digital rig is sounding soo good. That's the same person who told me I needed to get into belt drive transports and sent me the link of the classified that advertised the unit I currently own. Knowing this person has owned expensive TTs (both belt & DD) I followed his advice.

I suggest you follow your own 'advice' on "learning to learn" and find out how these people with higher belt drive transports get great music ( that's how I learned ). I'll tell you that my modded transport is plugged to a Clear Image T4 filter via an AudioPrism Super Natural 9.5 power cord. The T4's construction quality makes the BPT filters look like toys. The T4 shares the outlet with an Audio Power parallel filter. The T4 is fed via a 220V/110V ONEAC CB 2338 isolation transformer/filter (30 amp, 220V dedicated line, BTW). The T4 is supported by a set of Goldmund Cones which pierce a board of non resonant, Caribbean Moca wood, with an 18" x 18" rubber/cork/rubber slab under on an IKEA Lack table. Oh, my transport is also supported by Goldmund Cones with Moca wood and an 18" x 18" rubber/cork/rubber slab. The digital cable is a 1.5 m VenHaus Pulsar that Sean cooked for a full 30 days on two different cable cookers (one a modded Mobie, one mimicking a digital signal) @ 1 week alternate cycles. My modded 1200 sits on a similar layout, but with a Dennensen Air Suspension and a massive granite slab over the air pistons. This is WAY out of your league, Raoul.

Los niños hablan cuando las gallinas mean.

***

Psychic,

Is your friend going to keep his TT? Just curious.

Michael

Dear psychicanimal: Till now you speaks only about hardware and " salsa ", I ask you about live music and you choose for a " dead silence ".
I'm sure you are seatting " nowhere " and you are not only confused but completly ignorant about music reproduction and in all topics about audio systems ( I'm sure you are " a no brain animal ", like you say: no offense ) and this affirmation is not mine its yours, let me to explain: next I will write many things that you post on this forum:

- Hooking high output MC to low MC stage: " I don't know if I'm altering the sound.." Sure, you don't know nothing at all.

-One of your threads: " Totally confused about home theather ". Only home theather?

- In the time that you were looking for a new cartridge you post this " incredible " thread: " which material is best for a cartridge body ? What a question: it is the most important parameter in a cartridge: WOW.

-Thread: totally confused about analog: about the 1200 tonearm : " The silicone fluid will provide....damping...I'm getting a cartridge/tonearm resonance point of 15Hz.The damping will bring that figure down a couple of Hz ( 13 Hz ). Right on the sweet spot. "
Where do you learn this? I'm sure that your teachers are of the no-brain animal type.

-" But am wary of copper " warmth ".." Who told you this?

-When you change the power cord on the power supply of the 1200: " evident that the Creature ( 1200 ) is now faster than my phono stage ". WOW¡

-In 08-13-03 you write: " I don't see any major improvements in analog over the past twenty years. Not in TT and not in cartridges. " It is clear that in your " black hole, where the no-brain animals lives ", nothing happen and can't understand anything about it.

-" I want analog and digital in balance ". " I want my digital and analog rigs to sound as close to each other as posible ". Sure, a " no-brain animal " can't distinguish between " apples " and " bananas ".

Dear friend not because when you was 20 years old and works in an audio store, you really learn: you can't learn because you won't it. BTW, it does not matter what you do on your CD rig you only have 16 bits of info and this is why this medium is inferior to the analog rig: when you understand this subject then you can say: " I know about audio systems ", not before.Period.

All those information that you write in this forum is only a small example of many many stupid threads and answers that has your name on it and that confirm that you are a faboulous " no-brain animal ".

But all of us in this forum already learn one thing about you: what not to do, ever.

Yes, maybe I'm ignorant ( like you say ), but I learn and live every day thanks to my ignorance, something that you can't understand.

Regards and always enjoy the music.
Raul.

My apologies, George, for having this thread go off course. But, as you already know, it’s late August—back to school days! As you can see, one of them schoolchildren is in dire need of remedial lessons!

George, if you could come to my living room and hear the “creature on steroids” you’d know what I’m talking about. We could change the musical presentation into ‘analog’ sounding by bringing something like a Rega P25 or Music Hall 9, a nice moving coil and a tube phono stage. I would plug these into my power delivery/noise control rig, just like w/ my DD/moving magnet/solid state phonostage. The sound would change to what some would describe as ‘warm’, ‘three dimensional’ and ‘textured’. I would use the terms ‘noisy’, ‘bloated’ and ‘sluggish’. It’s important to use the positive attributes of CDs as the standard for vinyl reproduction—not another turntable. Power delivery/noise control is my area of expertise in audio and now that my belt drive transport finally broke in I’m going to have one hell of a time working on further lowering the noise floor of my analog. It’s going to take Bybees on hot, neutral and ground of my phonostage’s outboard power supply, as well as a trip to the cryo treatment facility and some special cryo’ed silver DC cabling in between. The phono preamp circuitry is definitely going to end up in Danny Boy’s hands.

Raoul, you just don’t know when to quit. If instead of searching through years of my previous posts you’d spend your time learning English! Again, I don’t care what you think. I have some serious people helping me and *your* input is not up to speed. For your information, I have been a Beta tester for KAB Electroacoustics and VenHaus Audio. Perhaps you think Kevin and Chris are not knowledgeable enough. Truth is they know I’m a radical, innovative thinker with a good ear and a great, neutral sounding solid state setup. Chris is a tube guy and he wanted to try the Pulsar in a grain free, glare free, dead quiet, 100% solid-state high-end system. He knew my feedback would be objective and relevant. After I gave him my feedback he offered to try his new capacitors before they were released on the market, but I had to say no because I don’t solder. If I stay here in Toledo the upcoming Sason loudspeaker (Ridge Street Audio) will be set up in my system for evaluation. When its designer first heard my analog rig he got goose bumps immediately. He later dialed in speaker positioning and the results were spectacular. I’m open to new ideas and suggestions—from people who really know what they’re doing. Set your ego aside and think this through. Oh, before I forget, the objective of a stereo system is to reproduce *recordings of music*, not live music. There's a big difference, Raoul...

That’s it, hope my info is useful, George. I think you can reach what you want if you sort things out and do things systematically. Ken Lyons really knows what he's doing. I can help you in the power delivery/noise control and high performance direct drive departments.

***

you need a better phono stage, period!

Raul- I was on a domestic flight a couple of years back and the pilot spoke in broken English- it was pretty obvious that he was from Pakistan. Well, the passenger in the seat next to me continued to loudly ridicule the pilot's English skills and heritage for most of the flight. I suppose he was trying to impress his young son, who was traveling with him. That passenger only proved himself to be a dunce, too.

Regards
Jim