Is this a reasonable Audiophile Mac-based Server?
hi Newly, there are 2 options... either get connect them via TOSlink cable (in which case, you need to make sure your DAC has a TOSlink input). you could also get a USB > AES/EBU or SPDIF converter (there are a number of these converters aval.). several newer DACs hv USB inputs. you can connect these directly using a USB cable. |
Now that both the Wavelength Cosecant USB DAC v3 (now with ASYNC mode) and the Benchmark USB DAC 1 and DAC 1-PRE support 24-bit audio at sample rates up to 96 kHz without the installation of any drivers or other special software. I am having a hard time choosing between them. My primary headphones are the Ultrasone UE 9 and the Grado GS 1000. Has anyone out there heard both side to side at any of the meets??? Are there specific advantages of one over the other? |
I have a SILVERSTONE ENSEMBLE EB01 USB DAC connected to my MacPro, i then stream my music via AirPort Express to my Cambridge Audio Azur 540v2 via Toslink. My Question is: Does having my USB DAC connected to my computer before I stream the music to my receiver a good thing? I wasnt sure if having the DAC connected to my computer before streaming the music defeated the purpose of having a DAC. I have noticed that everyone else has their DAC connected to to AirPort Express. Let me know if this doesnt make sense? Thanks for any insight. |
Although it is a very nice piece of equipment, I find it hard to believe that the USB DAC sounds better than a Transporter set up correctly using the optimal hardware and software settings for the Transporter and slim server. There are so many factors that make a BIG difference. For example, the TP balanced output is dramatically different than the SE output. MP3 transcoding is dramatically different than other options, etc. You simply cannot do a simple A/B test. The basic beauty of the TP is that it contains a great DAC and you eliminate more jitter inducing steps (USB, Toslink, etc.). |
As Pwfletcher says: Plug the USB cable directly into the Mini and not a hub (if you are going to use a hub make sure it a powered one with its own wall wart). Because a) it will have direct access to the USB and because b) it will have sufficient power - remember USB carries 5v. Yes a DAC will probably see USB differently then coax. Coax is coming in SPDIF, USB is coming in USB and then has to be converted to SPDIF. Based on everyone's comments it is starting to sound as though the Bel Canto is very sensitive to signal level. |
Go here to get an older version and try that http://www.oldapps.com/download_iTunes_mac.php I still don't believe that toslink is inferior. If all the bits get there and the interface is designed properly how could it be inferior. It has to be a problem with the DAC or jitter from the source if it sounds different. Perhaps the DAC designer figures no self respecting audiophile will use toslink so they don't put any effort in to it. These comparisons I see prove nothing about toslink, just about toslink on the particular DACs and sources used in the shoot out. That said if the DAC you choose does have an inferior optical input then you should use another input. |
thanks pwfletcher, i really hope its not a prob with the dac. i've talked to bel canto directly and they think the issue is with the mac.i tried a little experiment which was using my dvd player as a transport feeding the dac. seemed to work fine! connection made with digital coax. next i tried using the mac as the transport (no rip, just playback). no luck, same results- does the dac read usb and coax differently? I just got off the apple site and apparently it sounds like itunes 7.6 might be the issue. many people complaining about similar problems. (skipping, drop outs) i tried trashing the itunes app., then reinstalling it. - no luck - man, it would really be nice to get to the bottom of this. oh yea, apple care hasn't a clue! ????????? |
S789F ... I had the EXACT same problem last month with the exact same set up. It was a digital locking issue with the Bel Canto. My solution is below ... I also went to Radio Shack and found a shorter USB cable with gold plated connectors. I don't know if that helped, but everything works perfectly now with no drop-outs. "I think that it is a digital lock problem as the first decimal point in the display lights up just before I get a drop-out or pop. Hold on, I am going to try something ... ... I think I have found the problem. I connected my USB cable directly to the Mac Mini, instead of going through the USB Hub, and the drop-outs have almost completely disappeared. I am now using a 20ft USB cable ... I'll try a shorter one and see if that removes the remaining pops. I guess the Benchmark has better digital locking as it was able to lock on with my old set up without issue. Anyway, this looks like it is going to solve the problem ... now to spend a couple of days doing an A/B comparison between the two ..." |
I would test your DAC with another software and PC than iTunes and your mac mini. There are many programs that play music....surely you can find something and just test to see if you get drop outs...in which case it would lead one to suspect the DAC. Is there anything else that might be hogging the USB bus...do you have a dongle and wireless mouse or something plugged into USB (printer/scanner)that might cause latency in the USB port? |
S789f: i believe you're experiencing a 'clocking' issue. i had this same problem when i 1st hooked up my Mac mini to my Emm Labs DCC2. problem was gone once i activated Emm Lab's master clock function. unfortunately, i'm not familiar with the Bel Canto DAC3 & therefore not able to offer you more advice. |
I'm considering a Mac based server w/ outboard DAC, and just read in the current issue of Stereophile; Manufacturer's Comment from Benchmark Media Systems concerning "iTunes 7.5 bug" that sounds suspiciously like S789f's dropout problem....can anybody help with experience on the iTunes 7.5 (Mac updates automatically) so a heads up is worthwhile. If you follow Benchmark's suggestions for setting the Audio Midi sampling frequency before opening itunes (check Benchmark website), then there should not be a problem. Also, Gordon Rankin of Wavelenth has been checking this by doing detailed measurements and could not verify a serious problem with itunes. |
I'm considering a Mac based server w/ outboard DAC, and just read in the current issue of Stereophile; Manufacturer's Comment from Benchmark Media Systems concerning "iTunes 7.5 bug" that sounds suspiciously like S789f's dropout problem....can anybody help with experience on the iTunes 7.5 (Mac updates automatically) so a heads up is worthwhile. |
S789F, It's wierd you're experiencing drops. I have same set up as you with different DAC and no drops ever. A couple ideas: are you streaming music to an airport express in some other part of the house? Cordless phone? If so, they may be interfering with each other, which will cause drops in the main system. The only other possiblity I can think of: did you rip your music using error correction? Also, did you stay off of the computer while it was ripping? BTW, for future rips....MAX is a superior ripper to Itunes. You may want to give that a try... Also, check out this site for proper Itunes/Mac set up: usbdacs.com Good luck. |
I've recently set up my system similar to that being discussed. I purchased a Mac Mini and ripped my CD's using Apple lossless. The Mini connects to a Bel Canto DAC3 via usb. Other than the occasional drop in signal somewhere, somehow, it sounds fantastic. After auditioning multiple pre amps and CDP's, this set up sounds better than everything I listened to in it's relative price range. I just hope I can determine what's causing these drop outs. Anyone been experiencing similar symptoms? |
Hdomke, Thanks for the link to your gallery...very beautiful work! OK, on to your questions...I used the benchmark dac with and without the AE. I felt that the direct route from computer to DAC sounded better. But, I didn't like the benchmark all that much so I moved up to a Wavelength Audio DAC, which I suggest to you if you tire of the Benchmark at some point. Or, possibly an Empirical Audio coverter to a more traditional DAC or a CDP with a digital input. Anyway, I would suggest you run some listening tests trying different ideas and then let us know what works best for you. Also, tweaking the computer can improve sound quality....I use Stillpoints under my laptop that sits on my rack, which has added a nice improvement. |
I did a listening comparison with several of the methods listed here (see link below for conclusions) http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1196311011&openmine&zzBruce_1&4&5#Bruce_1 I have ordered 9m of Canare coaxial cable which give me the following setup: Computer->USB->Hagerman->9m of cable->Tri-Vista as DAC. The Hagerman cost $119, the cable cost $102, and for $221 I think I'll get the best sound I can short of investing $1000+. I'll let you know what it sounds like once I get the cable to see if I'm right. |
Onhwy61 makes the point elegantly and succinctly - the issue here is not capability but reliability... a reliable connection that sounds like crap is as worthless as a unreliable one that sounds great. Unfortunately there are no definites here. I have been using a wireless connection in many scenarios with absolutely no reliability problems. Evidently some have had problems. At this point you have many opinions but the only way to know for sure is to try it. An Airport Express is only $100 and you can get most of that back on eBay if you find it doesn't meet your needs. That is the cheapest first stab at the problem. |
Restock, maybe I missed it but I don't see where you used anything but a jittery optical out compared to the USB. I agree it looks like there is an excess amount of jitter in the toslink output of the Airport Express, Mac Mini and Transporter (at least compared to USB). But that is why I recommend to Henry not to got the Airport Express or Macbook to toslink route. By the way, I don't see why your source (Airport Express) has any less Jitter, just that you have a very good anti-jitter circuit in the Altman Jisco. In any case, I would recommend (to Henry) to get the USB version of Benchmark due its upgraded circuitry and added USB output compared to the Standard DAC1, try the wireless setup with AE and compare it to the USB version. Best to make up your own mind about this and trust your own ears. The differences are subtle to say the least., but since the goal is to assemble the"best sounding Music Server regardless of price" it would be best to keep options open. As far as the wireless 802 network vs. ethernet work debate goes, dropouts are going to be unlikely with an all Mac setup. you only might run in trouble down the road for playing back high rez 24/96 files. There I really don't see that much of a difference soundwise for 16/44.1 file playback. |
Herman, the experiment you describe was the first one I did when I got the DAC1 a while ago (I started out with a Airport Express and a Macbook with optical out)...
The differences between 1) and 2) were similar to the more recent experiment but even more pronounced. Similarly for the Airport Express which I also have. In fact, I was expecting the transport to do much better since it is isolated from the PC, but I guess that is not necessarily the case. Certainly the observations are true for the Benchmark, which is the DAC Henry was considering. In fact, your experiments with the Altman are more of a singular experience, since Altman put great care in the toslink interface ;) |
Amazing all the conjecture against Wireless 802 system and in preference for USB.....IMHO both should sound indistinguishable provided you buy modestly good gear...after all none of this is rocket science...do we really suspect manufacurers are all inept and incapable of building something that works. What happens at the clock in the DAC itself is anyone's guess in a specific setup with your house mains power and whatever other applicances you have connected - but rest assured that most manufacturers are building perfectly good gear. There is no reason to be assuming the worst from teh outset until you find a problem. There is no cause for such fears from the outset. As for me, I would build it and then cross check it against a CD player direct into the amp (using exactly the same test tracks as on iTunes) - that is what I have always done in the past (switching back and forth with the remote endlessly until I am satisfied I have no idea which one is which). If you can't hear any difference after this kind of extensive auditioning then it is good enough to stop worrying (just make sure to precisely level match volumes as even a very slight increase in loudness sounds better) |
Restock's experiment is inconclusive. When you have multiple variables in an experiment it is impossible to determine which causes the effect. The conclusion that USB is better than toslink ignores the fact the transporter may be introducing large amounts of jitter. This may be the cause of the inferior sound and may have nothing to do with toslink. A better comparison would be 1. Mac Mini feeding Benchmark DAC1 via USB 2. Mac Mini feeding Benchmark DAC1 via toslink even though this isn't conclusive either since despite what Benchmark says the DAC may indeed work better with USB. This isn't saying USB beats toslink every time, only that the Benchmark may be better with USB. All I can say is that in my system ....XP computer - wireless - Airport Express - toslink - Altmann DAC the sound is fabulous, jaw dropping, stunning, ..(insert your own adjective here) |
Henry, looking at your plan B I still don't think that Toslink will give you the same performance as a USB connection. I had several people over today and we performed some more comparisons in my system: 1) Slimdevices Transporter direct using the internal DAC in the Transporter 2) Transporter feeding Benchmark DAC1 via toslink 3) Mac Mini feeding Benchmark DAC1 via USB Out of the above 1) and 2) were very similar, despite the different DACs. Switching to USB made the biggest difference, i.e. 3) was clearly better, less hf noise, tighter more extended bass. As for remote contrallability: The Macbook as well as the Mac Mini come with a Infrared remote to control iTunes or Frontrow. Alternatively take a look at Salling Clicker, which allows you to use a PDA or cellphone as remote (works great too). Again, just my own experience, but have been playing with several of the combinations you suggested in my own system. |
Hdomke - the wireless system may or may not work to your satisfaction, there is no question that the wired system would. What it would sound like is skips - same as a wireless phone or cell phone losing the connection. Obviously it works well enough to satisfy most people most of the time. But you asked about the ultimate which it is not simply for reasons of absolute reliability - no doubt it is a whole lot more convenient. Since the performance is location specific the only thing to do is try it - after all you know you have a back up plan. In describing your Apple (which sounds way cool)I think you are mixing your technologies. Airport Extreme is the same as WiFi - technically it is called the 802.11 standard. The newest version of the standard is "n" - as in 802.11n. You can read a nice description on Wikipedia - basically its the next evolutionary step - faster - but also able to handle more clients at once which you really don't benefit from in a home like you would in an office. Gigabit ethernet has nothing to do with WiFi. Ethernet is a different communications protocol based on wires. The confusion comes in that some devices such as the Squeezebox can handle both Ethernet and 802.11. Ethernet comes in several flavors (speeds). Most installations use what is called 10/100 which refers to how many bits the ethernet router can handle. Gigabit is a much newer standard and because of its greatly increased bandwidth (data carrying capacity) is preferred in SOTA installations that require high bandwidth - just for the record, audio does not need high bandwidth. The Squeezebox or any of the other products from SLIM Devices, would basically replace the link from the Mac to the DAC. Because they are on Ethernet (or WiFi) the software enables you to use a remote control to control the SLIM box from your easy chair, just as you could use a remote to control the Mac mini. A NAS is a network attached storage device which is a node on an Ethernet network. Thus my slang about "hanging it on" meaning it would have a unique TCP/IP address. A NAS is cool (and arguably the ultimate) because you can install the SLIM software in it and run the music system without needing your computer to be on at all. Check out the SLIM site. Props to you for doing your homework and laying it out on paper - I am sure you will come up with a great system. |
I use a wireless keyboard with roller ball mouse. I use my HDTV as a screen. (Mac Mini can output 720P with some slight mods to the software that controls the video card) But feel free to ignore this as I did quite a bit of programming for my setup so that I can control everything (even switch on and off any components using my Mac from my wireless keyboard at the listening position). My setup is for the more technically inclined. |
You should be able to try it both ways to see what works best. I got into this whole thing by trying airport express. It didn't work in my system, but as others have pointed out, that could be the exception rather than the rule. Try it. If it doesn't work for you, return it to the apple store. Cat5 cable is cheap and easy to test too. My system ended up being hybrid wireless. Ethernet connections from network drive to router to music server (sonos) then to dac. Wireless laptop controls playback. Simple and reliable. Just stick a SB3, sonos, transporter or mac mini next to your dac and you'll have great sound that you can control from your listening chair wirelessly with your laptop. Don't do anything that takes the laptop away from your lap or binds it with wires when it is there. There is a simple way around it. |
Synthfreak (and others), There seems to be many of you who feel that a wireless network just won't give the same level of performance that you can get from real wire. To explore this option, I've assembled a "Plan B" and put it up on the website. You can view it by clicking here I remain unconvinced that it will outperform the wireless system in plan A, but I am going to try some A:B comparisons once I get my other components (B&W speakers and Classe Monoblock amps) in a 6 or 7 weeks. One problem with a wired system is : How can I control it from my listening chair? |
Synthfreak, I'm still a little confused why everyone insists on going wireless instead of getting a Mac Mini, a dac & a huge hard driveThat is certainly a simpler solution than the complexity that I have cooked up. But I was basing mine on existing equipment. And it does work, well. However, I like what you are saying. Instead of using your plan and attaching a "huge hard drive" what if connected the Mac Mini via ethernet to my 5.6 TB RAID in the basement? |
Ckorody, ... but if I were after the ultimate I would take both the wireless and the Toslink out of the design, wireless first.I could run an ethernet cable from the Apple Xserve RAID directly to a Mac in my listening room. From the Mac I could use Toslink to connect to the Benchmark DAC1. But it would be a lot less convenient. And are you SURE I would get better sound? If so, why? Wireless is prone to interferenceWhat would that sound like? My system has the Apple's newest version of an Airport Base Station, the "AirPort Extreme Base Station with Gigabit Ethernet" . Does that help? This leaves you with a Squeezebox, Transporter or their new device the Duet at the end of the Ethernet cableI don't understand what part of my system the Squeezbox replaces. Why is it better? The cleanest set-up would be to hang a NAS on the Ethernet network thus taking the computer completely out of the equation except for ripping.Forgive my ignorance, I'm not sure what you mean when you say "hang a NAS on the Ethernet network". Please explain. Thanks! |
Sammie, good grief that's a lot of TB's! Do you have the fmaily movie collection on that thing?No, I'm a visual artist. All my art is stored on there. Here is a link to my galleries. the weak link in your system is the AE. Even with DAC, it is not going to sound nearly as good as a computer hardwired to the DAC...at least based on my trials.Are you 100% sure? You have done careful blind A:B comparisons? My suggestion would be to put your laptop on your rack hardwired to the Benchmark... The laptop can be controlled using FrontrowI may try some tests with it set up that way. I like the idea of simplicity, and what I have drawn is complex, but if it is all digital, and the data is transferred correctly, where will the loss occur? Also, as it seems money is not a significant limiter, ditch the Benchmark and step up to a better DAC.Do you know of any DAC that has better specs? |
I tried a different approach that probably isn't popular but works in my application. MacPro with Apple Lossless files transfered to 160 GB Apple TV with Toslink connection to Theta Casablanca III with Extreme DACs. Remarkably close to CD's digitally into Theta. Uses Apple TV's interface with I don't mind. Music stored on Apple TV HD rather than streamed actively on wireless. Needs HD monitor. |
Just to add on to Edo who has certainly put together a nice rig - Running out of a G5 is a nice way to go. Before I moved to USB, I ran the Wireworld SuperNova Toslink from my G5 to my TriVista and it was very very good. Fine solution to 15 feet. No cables longer then that. There is no "but" except that you really need to pay attention to the quality of the cable. Also be aware that not all Toslink implementations are created equal. So YMMV depending on the DAC. However you may not need or want a G5 (full size tower) for your listening environment. It works for me because the rig is also my office - I just put up with the low level noise. If you are using a tower, one thing I would recommend is to take advantage of the SATA drive implementation rather then the LaCie USB/FireWire implementation. SATA is much more robust to live with (no FIFO/LIFO nonsense) and doing back-ups between SATA drives (which is essential to plan for) is much faster. Besides again in the office context it makes sense for me, A lot of guys are doing Mac Mini implementations which seems like a very nice way to go if it works in your room. Both the iPod Touch and the iPhone can control it remotely. Front Row is free etc. |
Henry, It is a 'reasonable' music server. the 'audiophile' designation is up to you. It is very similar to my mac based system (DIAGRAM of LAYOUT) My system is based on equipment I already had as well (except the external DAC) Though I would have to agree with Ckorody about the airport express drop outs. Initially I used an AE connected to my receiver and found it dropped out occasionally ( about once every 3 days). I have since hardwired the connection using Toslink from the office to the living room about a 8 foot cable run. I still use AEs in my garage and bedroom. In either case (wireless or cabled) a DAC is a noticeable improvement. To put my comments in context--doubt if I can link to my system over on another site-- here is a cut and paste ( a basic audio system ) Digital Source Digital Audio: Apple Power Mac G5 (see below) Signal Processors Monarchy NM 24 DAC Receiver Denon AVR 4306 Speakers Tetra 120u Subwoofer Martin Logan Abyss Speaker Cables Anti-Cable Interconnects Ven haus cryo pulsar silver /Audio Art Cable IC-3/ Monoprice digital Power Conditioning Belkin Pure AV Other Components Music Server PC: Apple Power Mac G5 Dual 2.3 PPC / LaCie 500GB Big Disk Extreme | Music Server connected to Denon AVR via TOSlink Optical | Apple Airport Extreme/Express network to remote powered speakers in other rooms the above system also part of an AV system I found that there is a disadvantage to running iTunes from a laptop as a source to a system: when it goes to sleep(or one closes the lid) the music will stop. I really like the NetTunes application, a sort of VNC into your main server, it provides virtual control of the itunes on the main server. there is a slight graphics lag on the laptop side but acceptable to me. when you close the laptop the music still plays. I also use my ipod for basic FF/RW and pause remote control....that is with Signal Remote. good luck ed |
"RDC's experience is atypical" No doubt. Apple wouldn't sell those AE's like popcorn if they didn't work at all. Henry did open the thread with "best sounding music server, regardless of price" I doubt AE, SB3 or Sonos is that. Transporter probably isn't either from what I've read. Re-thinking Henry's set up, if cost really isn't a factor I'd probably eliminate the desktop in the other room and put a mac mini and the best sounding USB Dac near the hi-fi rig, then use the laptop or some other cool apple device to control it from the listening chair. And I still think I would hardwire the streaming if at all possible and leave wifi for controlling playlists and other computer tasks... |
