Is there an ideal (ish) cartridge output?

This question is ''other way round'': which phono-stage for which
output? 

We all know that most preamps sound best with the volume control fairly wide open.... So, I always look for a cartridge with output that for my typical system listening volume will keep the volume control on my preamp in a generously open (highish) range....

Do you mean an active preamp with gain ?
This problem is irrelevant for passive preamps if the rest of the components in the chain matched well.
@frogman

Dear frogmn, You get support from those phono-pres producers 
who build phono-pres with 4 amplification stages. They then recommend the lowest possible amplification for the used cart.
The reason is ''the higher mplification the higher distortions''. I
own two of such pres: Basis Exclusive and Klyne 7PX3.5.
However for my Ortofon MC 2000 I use an SUT. 

There is a quality of sound that I look for when determining what the ideal output of a phono cartridge is that is a little more ephemeral. This observation is based only on my experience with my chosen components over the years and may not apply to anyone else, but I have churned enough cartridges and phono stages over the years to believe there is something to this.

We all know that most preamps sound best with the volume control fairly wide open; iow, as little attenuation of the phono stage’s signal as possible. Obviously, the overall gain structure of a given system dictates what range on the volume “knob” will be of practical use. At the same time, and this has been the key point for me, the cartridge needs to have enough output to properly “energize” the phono stage. To energize is the only way I can describe this and it is not simply a question of resulting total available listening volume. If the phono cartridge does not have enough output for a given phono stage the music will sound lifeless. The music won’t have enough forward motion, PRAT, groove...whatever one wants to call it; even if there is enough total available listening volume and acceptable noise levels.

So, I always look for a cartridge with output that for my typical system listening volume will keep the volume control on my preamp in a generously open (highish) range. Too low usually means that the cartridge output is too high for the overall gain structure of the system. Too high and it usually means that the cartridge output is too low and it is not energizing the phono stage properly even if there is enough listening volume; and the music suffers.

Dear Lew, Is your praise of ''your'' Ortofon MC 2000 not in
contradiction with your statement about ''output''? As far
as I know this cart has the lowest output ever(?) 0,05 mV.
Besides still one of the ''best ever'' despite its age. 

Interesting insights from all. Lewm, has heard this before, so I will search for more of his posts, there could be a lot of info I can find out. The low moving mass part of this discussion I have read about before. I would like to try an air-core cartridge when money permits. It seems that Lyra cartridges have a good compromise of all that has been discussed, maybe that is why they are so popular? Although, the sound is the sound, and if you don't like it, than it doesn't matter how it's made. 

low moving mass of air core is preferable side effect - air core IMO works better as magnetic field is more homogeneous so sound is more fluent/real. 

While I would agree that low moving mass is a desired quality in a cartridge, it cannot be the whole story. And if low moving mass per se is the major goal, then there are moving iron, induced magnet, and other types that inherently have lower moving mass than any moving coil cartridge. This subject comes up at least once every six months, if not even more often.

The most noticeable noise I get when replaying vinyl is from the record surface, the phonostage noise doesn’t seem to intrude. I looked up the specs for my phonostage and it claims a SNR of 82dB for a 0.5mV output and a gain of 64dB. I’m actually using an SPU Royal N with a 0.2mV output. (I have a VPI 16.5 and a Degritter to clean the records which helps).

If you’re after a medium output the EMT cartridges with around 1 mV seem to have a good reputation for not losing the music in the hifi.

The so called ''moving parts'' by an (MC) are cantilever/stylus
and coils. Those are fastened to the joint pipe in which also
''tension wire'' is fastened in order to connect moving parts
with the generator. It is obvious(?) that cantilever /stylus
combo weights ''nothing''. So the most weigth is in the
coils. The number of windings determine the output. So
the lower the output the lower number of windings and
the lighter the moving parts. Any attempt to reduce the
weight of the moving part means reduction of the wire jn
 the coils. One can increase the output by ''iron core''
in the coil former but this has other drawback. The ''coreless''
coils are the best but with the owest output. For those
one will need very good phono-pre or SUT.

what is the best output to give you the lowest noise without sacrificing performance. 
Higher output is definitely better, and would be universal, except its not free. There are tradeoffs.  

There are only three ways of getting higher output: more coils, bigger magnets, or more powerful magnets. There's a few more little tricks but basically that's that. Expensive materials basically forces everyone to using the same stuff at the same price level, and so it then comes down to how much. How many coils, how big the magnets. 

Either way, all things being equal, higher output equals higher moving mass - equals less detailed tracking. This is why at the top of the game pretty much all the best MC carts have pretty low output. Its simply not possible to track as well with more moving mass as less.

This also explains why Strain Gauge works so well. With a fraction the moving mass but much greater output (not to mention no RIAA EQ required) its a technological no-brainer.

Cartridge output along with phono preamp gain setting and making sure you are not inputting more than your preamps input sensitivity (mV). Risking not so much clipping as simply raising the noise floor too much, most preamp sections can handle close to 1V but some are spec’d at like 300mV. So some extended listening is needed.....Clearly a lower output in the 300-400mV range will help keep the noise floor pretty low, while allowing all the subtle musical pcs to come thru.

Getting a quiet result from a MC phono stage (or MM stage with SUT) and ~ 0.5mV cartridge is fairly easy to do. It gets increasingly difficult as your cartridge output falls below that. At 0.3mV you’re usually dealing with some discernible noise (unless you only listen at modest volumes), and it’s up to you whether that’s going to be problematic or not - though with good setups it should not be notable with needle in groove. Of course this is assuming you’ve optimized grounding so hum isn’t an overriding issue. And I don’t have much experience with MM cartridges.

Another aspect that also got me thinking about this, is when you crank the volume on an input of a cd player or DAC when nothing is playing you get silence, but when you do that with a phono stage you will quickly get noise when past a certain threshold when music is not playing. Which got me thinking does anyone have a phono setup where that does not happen?

My Herron VTPH-2 (not 2A), used with an Audio Technica AT-ART9 cartridge rated at 0.5 mv, is amazingly quiet.

I frequently play minimally compressed classical symphonic recordings which can reach brief dynamic peaks of 100 to 105 db at my 12 foot listening distance, but when I turn the volume control up to settings that are well above any that I might ever use I hear zilch unless my ears are very close to the speakers. And likewise when I listen via Stax electrostatic headphones, which certainly do not have a rolled off top end.
That is with the stock tubes, btw, and with the Herron applying essentially no load (i.e., a near infinite number of ohms) to the cartridge.

Comments by some members that I've seen here have have led me to suspect that the more recent VTPH-2A might be somewhat more noisy, at least with the stock tubes, and I've certainly been very happy with the sonics of the VTPH-2, so I have no plans to have the unit upgraded to the more recent version.

Regards,
-- Al

Cartridges in that middle ground of 1.0 to 2.0mV tend to be either HOMC or MI types.  In my experience and in my opinion only, HOMCs are rarely top class, usually duds, whereas MI types often are among my favorites.  Therefore, I would make no distinction based only on output signal voltage.  There is no "ideal", in other words. Of course, it is imperative that your particular phono stage can deal with the output of whatever cartridge you happen to like.

I agree. I think that a well-specified phono stage usually solves most of the issues. I think that one can have too much gain as easily, as too little. 

Another aspect that also got me thinking about this, is when you crank the volume on an input of a cd player or DAC when nothing is playing you get silence, but when you do that with a phono stage you will quickly get noise when past a certain threshold when music is not playing. Which got me thinking does anyone have a phono setup where that does not happen?

In a way it's not about what gear can you get to give you the best output, but more over what is the best output to give you the lowest noise without sacrificing performance. Hypothetically, would this be a great combination for low SNR and THD, without sacrificing a designer's voicing of a cartridge or phono stage?

- .8mv phono cartridge
- 52db gain from the phono stage in a balanced configuration

I have too many cartridges and with a proper phono stage the problem with cartridge output does not exist at all. Position of the volume control on my passive Aleph L preamp is not always the same (the power amp is Yamamoto A08S now). Everything from 0.15 to 5mV (or higher) is fine. Even lower output MC are OK. All you need is a decent phono stage (like gold note ph-10 with optional gain settings). 

Regarding MM cartridges i think 3mV is fine, there are lower output MM and higher output MM up to 9mV sometimes. Something like 3-5mV is medium. 

Yeah, I actually think the two most important specs in all of audio are cartridge output and speaker sensitivity. They are like two sides of the same coin. If the speakers put out at least 90 dB then finding a good amp is easy because just about anything will do. By the same token if the cartridge output is medium range around 0.5 or 0.6 mV or higher, something like that, then there's a huge number of phono stages that will work just fine. 

I'm not saying there's not more to it. Simplifying, obviously. Those low output carts tend to have fewer coil windings which tends to lead to greater detail. But its all relative. The lower you go the harder it gets to find a phono stage that doesn't lose in noise what you gained in the low output cartridge. 

I don't know that you need to go all the way to 1.5 - 2mV to get there. But then on the other hand I think there's a reason some prefer MM over MC and its probably got a lot to do with this output factor. 

As for why there aren't more of them, chalk it up to the incredible drive of so many audiophiles to make everything so much harder than it needs to be. I mean look, bi-amping, bi-wiring and all of that should have died out years ago. Low output MC gives guys the chance to spend endlessly on step-up transformers, of which there are literally hundreds. These things are so incredibly load specific they are near tailor made for the audiophile who wants to feel so cool he made something work nobody else could figure out. 

What they really need to figure out, when you get to a certain level, you can spend near infinitely on this stuff or for a fraction of the cost leapfrog the whole mess with a strain gauge. But that's another one for another day.