Is extremely accurate "VTA" adjustment necessary?
Sunnyboy, your experiences are quite common. I used to have the Triplanar setting on each of the records I most commonly listened to. Now with my Shindo arm, I know them by changes I feel in my thumb as I raise and lower the VTA. Many don't want to bother and thus argue it doesn't matter. Let them think so. |
Its with some trepidation that I venture into these troubled waters(sounds almost like S&G!). But what the heck I have only one lifetime and only one neck to loose!! There are some pretty asute observations and comments in this thread. My comments/observations are based on the Triplanar 7 U2. I have no experience of any other tone arm with a VTA tower. Two facts are seemingly incontrovertible/indisputable : 1. Raising/lowering the VTA tower clearly influences the sound; 2. Adjusting VTF also has clearly discernible sonic implications. Last night while listening to a reissue of a Parlophone pressing of the Beatles - Help, there was a bit, actually quite a lot of shrillness in the upper frequencies.It was not just irritating but almost unplayable. I turned the knob on the VTA tower clockwise 3x lowering the tower and wow the shrill bits were gone and the record sounded just right to my ears. Out of curiosity I checked the VTF with a digital gauge( the kind that retails for USD 139 at some online stores).The VTF setting on the Transfiguration L Orpheus is normally 1.910 gm. The reading after 3 clockwise turns of the VTA tower was 1.956.At this stage my evil mind was getting hyper. Without altering the VTA setting I adjusted the VTF back to the normal 1.910. Guess what, the shrillness and upper frequency sibliance was back. The Beatles Lp is one of those real thinny ones, 120 gm or so. I then turned to a 180 gm lp - the new Dylan - Through life with you( sounds like Tom Waits goes to Vaudiville though there are some half decent tracks, IMHO). The VTA setting remained constant, ie with the VTA tower lowered. Despite all the nasal overtones the Dylan album was sounding real good.I then reverted to the original VTA setting by turning the tower settings anti clockwise 3x ie increasing VTA. I began to loose some of the upper frequency detail.Separation between instruments was blurred, in short the music was less enjoyable.I checked the VTF at the new VTA setting and it was about 1.880gm. This was not a scientific experiment but merely a report on some spontaneous and off the cuff attempts to co-relate different VTA and VTF settings with changes in sound quality. IOWs with the 120 gm lp a higher VTF was called for and the reverse with the 180 gm Dylan lp. So whats the point of this long and possibly boring rant : simply and IMHO, with a Triplannar changes in VTA settings are actually mico metric shifts in VTF.To my mind the geometric evidence in the original TNT article is pretty solid. Sorry to rake up a cliched issue but I guess being anal has some upsides !! NJoy |
If your records are of different thinkness as mine are, set the TT up for 180 gram records. It will be close enough for most all your records and best for what is being pressed for the most part now. I tried at one time to adjust for different thicknesses and it drove me crazy. IMHO be less anal and enjoy the music, this is a hobby not a job. |
Will_herrera, >>> Can I get an "amen brother"? <<< Sir, yes Sir! And all say AMEN! :-) This whole REGA white paper rational could actually be seen just the other way round. BECAUSE of what Roy thinks about the subject the REGA tts are as they are? I do of course figure out the best compromise with each new cart I listen to, followed by some fine tuning. But then after some time --- that's IT. Amen brother, as life's too short. I rather get anal about other stuff (which in fact I do, e.g. cross-overs and such). Greetings, |
Newbee, yes, a rational for ignoring adjustment of your VTA-exactly but why have to tell others it is irrelevant and give incorrect or exaggerated information? Once I had the Wheaton tone arm with a caliper scale. I did mark about 100 records to set this. I don't do that with the Shindo Labs but do make changes for thick records, such as 200 grams. |
Re Gandy's comments regarding the Rega - Wasn't one of the downsides of using a Rega TT/Arm was that there was no provision for simple repeatible adjustible VTA? If so, has anyone questioned Gandy's motive for the white paper? It is obvious (I think even to Gandy) that setting VTA is critical to proper set-up. That proper VTA, once VTA is initially established, it is a moving target, dependible on many external issues, such as record thickness and tracking force changes for a couple of examples, doesn't mean that that you should ignore improving the VTA completely. For example I have used different TT mats with different thicknesses to compensate for different thicknesses of the record. I've even cheated by changing the tracking force a tad as well when I had a disc that needed a touch up. Then I had an arm with VTA adjustible of the fly. The only problem, or risk if you will, of having the latter is if you become so anal about getting the perfect alignment that you spend all your time running between you listening chair and the TT adjusting VTA. Close can be good enuf, for me anyway! :-) What I read into this fact sheet was nothing more than a rational for completely ignoring the issue, ergo the rational for buying a Rega TT. FWIW. |
While searching for the perfect solution to my VTA dilemma I found this, I t seems to make sense although, those who sell VTA adjusters will no doubt disagree. Rega VTA(Vertical Tracking Angle) Fact Sheet by Roy Gandy Quote: "Every problem has a solution. If there is no solution, there is no problem." The Tonearm: The maximum up/down adjustment on a tonearm is about 0.5 inches (12mm). That being approximately 1 degree VTA adjustment. [Correction: if you do the maths' a 0.5inch variation on a 9 inch arm is about a 3° variation. You can work this out yourself once you remember that the sin() of an angle is the change in the y coordinate divided by the radius, so 0.5/9 ≈ 0.055 ≈ sin(3°)] The Cartridge: Each model of cartridge has its own unique design which also determines the stylus VTA. Rega has accurately measured the VTA on at least one hundred different cartridge models. The lowest VTA we have measured was 24° (even though the manufacturer claimed 20°) and the highest was 36°. Most cartridges have a VTA of between 28° to 32°. The VTA of Rega cartridge is approximately 28°. The Record: The VTA of a record cutting stylus is set to give the best continuous cut of the lacquer. Records are cut with a VTA which varies between 0° and 20°. On an individual record the VTA will vary by 7° or more, depending on the type of cutting head used, the depth of cut, the musical frequency and the lacquer springback. The VTA of the groove on every individual record varies by at least 7° over the record. Every record is cut under 20°. Futility: We can see that cartridge VTA is normally around 10° higher than the record cutting angle. And the record cutting angle varies by around 7° whilst it is being played. THEREFORE A MAXIMUM ARM ADJUSTMENT OF ONLY 1° CAN BE SEEN TO BE COMPLETELY FUTILE. To accurately match cartridge VTA to the record cutting angle the back of the arm would need to be well below the record (impossible!) and the cartridge VTA would need to vary at least 7° whilst playing the record! Normal advice: Most informed advice is to keep the arm tube roughly parallel to the record surface. In fact, the VTA becomes more correct as the rear of the arm is lowered as much as possible, the limit being when the arm or cartridge touches the record. Worst case: The most extreme situation is a record cutting angle of 0° and a cartridge VTA of 36°. The result is a VTA inaccuracy of 36°. Question: Can there be any point in playing around with 1° of VTA? VTA adjustment is actually a neurosis NOT a technical adjustment. An Alternative: If you alter the playing weight of a normal cartridge by 0.1 of a gram the stylus VTA will alter by around 1.5°. Another Alternative: If the room temperature increases by 5° F, the stylus rubber suspension will soften and decrease the VTA by 1°. "but when I alter the VTA I hear a difference" Of course you do. Any variation or change to the very important joint between the arm and turntable will alter the sound quality. Try simply tightening or loosening the main arm fixing nut, the sound will change. Try tightening or loosening the cartridge fixing nuts, the sound will also change. Almost any change or adjustment to a turntable/arm/cartridge will alter the sound quality if one listens with an acute level of perception. We hope we have explained to the reader that VTA adjustment is of little or no significance. There are many other simple structural changes that are more important, such as fixing the cartridge rigidly to the arm and fixing the arm tightly to the turntable. |
Update: Looks like there has been a lot more controversy about the vta article by Geoff Husband aside from this thread Exposing the VTA myth?-Revised The Great VTA experiment Cartridge alignment Part 2 |
I just came across this thread. In my opinion I think "Extremely accurate VTA" is not only unecessary but rediculous. I have to agree with good ol' Roy Gandy on this one. I could be wrong, but I'll give my opinion as to why: First of records are warped to begin with, different record heights, ETC. How far do we have to go to achieve sound that may or may not even be audable. In my opinion it's not audible in such small increments. I say, get it level, or when ever you think it might be in a good spot and RELAX! Enjoy the music, Balance |
I totally agree with Lloyd on this point. However, it could be argued that the problems Lloyd has pointed out might be minimal with certain tonearm systems, and the trade-off may be considered by the user to be a worthwhile trade of convenience in VTA tuning vs absolute stability and geometry. In an absolute sense, Lloyd is correct on this issue, as I think would be expected of the producer of a turntable at the quality level of the Walker. |
As a point of interest given this extended discussion, 6moons.com just published a review of the Walker Proscenium turntable and an interview with Lloyd Walker. One of Lloyd's comments was about his design conclusions on adjustable VTA during play: Lloyd Walker: One thing we discovered right away is that adjustable VTA during play is probably one of the worst things you could ever put on a tone arm.http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/walker4/sota_5.html . |
so much for having the last word on this subject. I did not say perfect vta was theoretcical. I said those who claimed they could find it easily and repeatedly by ear were highly suspect. A claim that offended many. There is a perfect vta and that can be and has been proven mathematically. I have yet to hear anything "snap into focus". Improvements were significant enoguh to justify the effort, however. You are dealing with a very tiny stylus riding in a very narrow grove. I contend that the stylus is affected by movements so small most human eyes and fingers are incapable of making them. diamond cutters and jewleres exempt. Both diamond cutters and jewelers use very acuurate tools and magnifying devices as aids. I read a lot of stero magazines in my day. I threw most of them away. My recollection of the first vta article was science based and not golden ear based. I beleive it was in the late seventys. Like most tweaks I was a skeptic. It was only 'till I got a system capable of resolving the difference did I beleive. Maybe (dougdeacon) you and others had already discovered it. My comment about "worshipping at the alter of vta" was tongue and cheek. Come on, reread some of the descriptions in this thread about the benefits of correct vta. Don't you think they exagerate just a little. If you really want gorgeuos sound get some triodes and electrostaics with a Koetsu rosewood signature.(okay!okay! adjust the koetsu for proper vta. by ear if you like) |
Certainly, 180 and 200 gram records are unusually thick, but there are not great differences among other records. Finding the right vta thus is not entirely dependent on which record you are playing. Some time ago when I had a Wheaton arm with calibrated settings, I went to the trouble of assessing about 50 LPs. Most had the same setting or very close to the same setting. |
Also this makes me really doubt the cheaper vta devices for Rega arms like expressimo and incognito. When you loosen the arm, change vta and then retighten, everything could have changed: The tonearm could slightly shift around in the mount changing cartridge alignment completely, you might hit an unstable thread on the mount, etc. Not the best method to get reproducible results.True, and they're also sort of a PIA to use. The bottom line is: If you want to bother about vta, you better do it right with a well-executed mechanism.Are you sure you're a physicist? That sounds more like an engineer to me. ;-) It's important to reiterate that we were driven to this by the demands of our ears. It was not theory driven nor, as Gregadd so aptly put it, a case of worshipping at some idol of theoretical perfection. It was only after we realized we could hear the differences that we went out, chased down the theory and sought out possible solutions. That's important in this hobby I think. Hear as many different things as you can, talk to others and try to figure out if what they hear is what you hear. Then choose solutions that best execute your mix of priorities within your budget. As Twl so wisely pointed out on Artar 1's cartridge thread, chasing perfection for its own sake is endless, futile and ultimately sterile. Yesterday Paul sent an email to a couple of friends describing a listening day with our new cartridge. Not a word about techniques or technology. He simply attempted to convey in words the intensely satisfying musical day he had experienced. :-) His unbridled enthusiasm and joy were utterly unlike his normally reserved self. That's what I was hoping for when we came back to analog after 15 years in the RBCD wasteland. Twl told me this could happen and he was right. His passion and that of other early Teres adopters helped us rediscover ours. Your path and mine to that passion may differ and perhaps they should differ. After all, the only way to truly hear live musicians in your home is to host live musicians. Short of that it's important to remember, at least when talking here, that stereo is just an illusion. But when the record spins and the eyelids close (mine do anyway)... |
Well, I think I am certainly convinced now that my next table/arm combo will have the appropriate facilities for adjusting vta. After all this discussion I really need to try it for myself. There's nothing better than experiments, theory is not always a good substitute. I am note sure though whether I will get really obsessive about it, since I usually prefer to just listen without tweaking. Doug, you really brought up another good argument earlier, although I think it is a very good one FOR vta adjustments if done properly. I also think that there is a chance that the cartridge alignment is off due to the slightly changed geometry when adjusting vta. However, for minute adjustment in VTA with a well-executed tonearm mount and vta adjuster, this should not change the geometry more than putting on a record of different thickness. This also would mean that we should certainly adjust for different record thickness to be true to the changed geometry. Also this makes me really doubt the cheaper vta devices for Rega arms like expressimo and incognito. When you loosen the arm, change vta and then retighten, everything could have changed: The tonearm could slightly shift around in the mount changing cartridge alignment completely, you might hit an unstable thread on the mount, etc. Not the best method to get reproducible results. The bottom line is: If you want to bother about vta, you better do it right with a well-executed mechanism. I really have to thank everybody here again. I thought the discussion was really helpful and really brought out some of the usually hidden issues in adjusting vta. And I do have to agree: You can't ignore it but you don't need to worship its altar. Again best wishes, Rene |
Okay! I seemed to have lost this argument. It just seems to me that your record could care less what angle the record was cut at. I'm sure you all have seen pictures of a stylus contact point. Maximize it and you'll get the most out of your cartridge. It just happens that vta was the last and most difficult alignment that has to be done. The fact that it constantly changes only adds to the myth. I owned the martin logan cls, one of the most ruthlessly revealing speakers ever made. I can say that vta was just one of the many things that affect sound. You can't ignore it but you don't need to worship its alter. |
Since the only thing I've added to this thread is a little Romy, I mean Raul, bashing, I thought I'd throw out what is happening on my TT tonight. I've been playing mostly heavier albums lately, but tonight I wanted to listen to some older stuff, like Yes & Genesis, because the old lady is out doing girl crap, and volume is good! A litlle background. When I installed the VTAF, I made a new arm board to accomodate it, not wanting to cut up my nice lead-loaded solid macassar ebony board. I made one out of 1" thick cocobolo with a red coconut palm riser. This is where it gets interesting.  On the heavier albums, it sounds great. But, tonight, I've been noticing that the thin older (30 years) albums don't seem right. So, as I tried to lower the VTA while an album was playing, I said: "Oh shit, it won't go any lower." I was wondering where all of the bass I've gotten used to disappeared to, and now I know. I've been waiting to go over every adjustment on the TT until I get my Soro back from the shop (supposed to be last week, starting to get pissed). I have Wally's Analog Tool and everything else I need, but I don't think it can wait any longer. I can't stand it now! So, it looks like I'll whip out another riser in the shop this week, change it all out, then go to town. I guess for the next couple of days I can only listen to the 180/200 g albums. Good thing I bought a bunch of them before I even finished building the table. I'll update as I can. |
I think those who've heard "the magic of right VTA", which obviously includes me, must concede that achieving it regularly requires a degree of effort and/or record-keeping that some just find too bothersome. We don't mind doing it. Our ears seem to demand it, so we chose our tonearm with easy, accurate, repeatable and on-the-fly height adjustment. That was priority #1. No arm without that feature even made the shopping list, which of course kept the list both short and costly! Yellow stickies with best arm heights are on each LP, so every play after the first is literally a two second adjustment. I dial in arm height while my Teres platter is spinning up to speed, so it takes no useful time at all. Last night we spun the Classic 45rpm reissue of the Dorati/Firebird for the first time in many months. I wasn't recording arm heights when last we played it, so I guessed a setting typical for other 200g/45rpm Classic reissues. Gotta start somewhere. The first half of side 1 was ghastly. Shrill to the point of pain. We'd never played this record with the TriPlanar/ZYX, but it never sounded this bad with the OL Silver/Shelter. WTF? Throwing preconceived notions aside I started dialing the arm down, 1/4 turn at a time (that's a huge adjustment BTW). I finally got things tamed a full revolution (0.7mm) lower than normal for this type of record. Once my ears recovered from cowering behind the sofa I was able to dial it in to the usual sweet spot. Clearly Mr. Grundman & Co. were confused when they cut that lacquer. It's a fabulous record but the cutting head was set far lower than normal. |
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I have a recent experience that causes me to reopen this thread. I got a new Shindo Labs mat to replace my cork mat on the Garrard 501. Although these mats are both 3 mm. thick. The mat makes an incredible change in sound. As one of these changes is greater body to the sound but diminished sparkle in the top end. I have spent three hours so far adjusting the vta, asmuth, anti-skate, and even dampening on the Schroeder Reference. All of these have proven quite important to what I am hearing and the new mat clearly has superior bass and is quieter. I think I have found the correct asmuth by way of the equal transparency of both channels. Today, I will try the tracking weight and vta some more. The overhang is right on as is the anti-skate. Anyone who suggests that setting up a tt is easy is crazy. |
Gregad, as long as you dont move the bdoy of the cartridge, pivot to stylus distance is a constantI worded my post very carefully. If you read it again you'll note I said the stylus-to-arm mount distance would change. Stylus-to-pivot is fixed, as you say, unless the armtube is made of rubber or the cartridge moves in the headshell. does'nt this mean you also changed the distance when you put on records of different thicknes? by re leveling the arm you have brought it back into alignment.Point covered, re-read my 6th paragraph. We're not disagreeing, just awkward stuff to describe in words rather than pictures. Twl, Totally agree. Of course obsessing about minute details is the point of this thread, so I'm right at home! ;-) |
Rene: 6mm is .23 inches. I do not recall making any changes nearly that large, once the arm/cartridges were intially "ballparked" in. This (the small changes) are what made the adjustments somewhat difficult to make, for me anyway. The less than 1/16" crude change, I make with the rider mats, seems to be approx. the same range (a little more) used with the adjustable arm. I'm guessing the arm was 9-10". I'm also currently using less than SOTA cartidges, which are not very fussy. We were trying older Grace and Denon cartridges on the Rega deck (mentioned earlier). Didn't care for the sound of the Denon's and was told that the Grace would be too delicate (my wife and teenage Godson also use the TT). An interesting LP to try, with an easily adjustable arm, is "The Last Castrato". I have two versions (think the later one was issued on Pearl). It used to sell for <$10 on Ebay. |
Doug, that is correct, the overhang will be affected in a minor way, when adjusting VTA. I agree it gets very difficult to make everything perfect on every record, and I don't even try to do it. I just get it as close as I can by ear, and go with it. It is great to make things as accurate as possible, and as long as it doesn't intrude on your listening experience, then it's fine to do as much tuning as you are comfortable with. |
