"Since record thicknesses vary, you'd need to adjust the VTA, for every record you play, if you want "perfection". I don't think anybody does this."
Hello. I know several people who do exactly this, ourselves included. Ask Colitas. I just cleaned, played and returned some LPs for him and forgot to remove our yellow stickies from the inner sleeves. Damn! Now he knows our secret arm height settings for three different copies of Pink Floyd's 'The Wall'! :-)
Even worse, it's more complex than just adjusting for record thickness. Different cutting engineers and record labels used different cutting angles, sometimes even for multiple copies of the same LP. I have a couple of boxed sets with different arm heights for different discs. Uniquely, so far, I have one London FFss with a different setting for each side! That struck even me as bizarre. I suppose Fred cut the lacquer for side A on Monday and Bill cut the lacquer for side B on Tuesday. Or something.
Easy, repeatable and on-the-fly arm height adjustment is precisely the reason we replaced a pretty nice sounding HIFI-modded OL Silver with a TriPlanar. For us it's just part of playing an LP, like CF brushing or screwing on the clamp. I think of at as tuning my instrument, which it is in a way. The good news: once the optimal setting is found it goes on the sticky. Now it's a 2 second adjustment every time I replay that record.
SRA adjustment is certainly a YMMV area. But as Rushton said, if you're willing to take the time then the benefits on some LPs can be astonishing. Like him, we sometimes make adjustments that are very small. The scale on the TriPlanar is accurate to the nearest .007mm (not inches).
The impact of SRA adjustment varies greatly with the type of musical sounds. HF's are more sensitive than LF's, obviously. Long, sustained tones like an organ may produce are fairly insensitive. Sounds with quick transients and decays are quite sensitive, especially if the decay of the instrument is at a different pitch than the leading edge. Piano and percussion are pretty sensitive. Well trained vocalists may be the most sensitive of all. Getting their sibilants just right is a sure sign that SRA is spot-on. Obviously the better and more HF extended the recording, the more it matters.
As for that article, to me it's just another pointless argument offered by a theory-blinded engineer trying to "prove" that I can't hear what I hear. If his theory doesn't explain my hearing, it's of no concern to me. Sure, solidity and lateral alignment are more important. But most of us already have that. As for simplicity, I have no idea how to adjust that! Tri-Mai didn't mention it in the manual. ;-) |
Rene,
I reread the article and understand that a key aspect of it is your question, "Is it really VTA/SRA changes that we're hearing or is it something else?" Apologies if I seemed to be dismissing it. This article has been used or mis-used both here and elsewhere by those with non-scientific motives. I suppose I was responding to those rather than to the article itself.
"Why don't we hear the variation in VTA as the LP rotates, since this variation is much bigger than changing the arm height by .005'"
That is a good question. Finding answers could indeed lead to improvements in music reproduction on vinyl. Even if the TT is perfect, many records are not. Neither Rushton nor I have vacuum hold-down, though I do use a periphery clamp. Even with two clamps however, some records just aren't flat. This makes the question very interesting. Wish I could suggest a satisfactory answer, but at the moment I can't.
The theory of changing resonant behavior doesn't seem completely satisfactory when the same differences are being reported across multiple, high quality rigs. I wonder if that theory came from the well-observed behavior of Rega style arms, which DO change audibly every time you adjust the arm locking nut?
It is *possible* to carelessly adjust arm height on a TriPlanar in such a way that its sonic character *might* be effected. The VTA tower raises/lowers the arm on a large diameter threaded rod. The good aspects of the design include a long thread contact area, to prevent wobbling about the vertical axis, and a set screw that pulls the entire mechanism tight against the outer housing. Lots of contact area, not just one screw point. Still, as with any mechanical device, there is some play in the mechanism. For example, one can approach any given arm height setting from either above or below. If one approaches a particular setting from above, the slack in the threads may not all be taken up. For this reason, I always adjust by bringing the mechanism *up* to a setting before locking the set screw. I can actually feel the weight of the arm moving up, so gravity is helping defeat any looseness in the threads. I also give the arm support a little nudge back and forth while turning the set screw to lock the setting in. This assures that the set screw mechanism is solidly seated. When carefully adjusted like this, a TriPlanar is quite rigid. Once it's locked down, any attempt to move the arm mount in any direction simply moves my 60 lb. turntable, without affecting the arm mount itself as far as one can tell by feel. No, I'm not going to pick up the table by the tonearm to test that!
I suppose it's possible that the mechanism's resonant behavior could change when I raise or lower the arm a few thousandths of a mm, but the kind of musical changes I described above don't seem to be consistent with that model, at least to me. They seem more consistent with the idea that the timing of when the playback stylus hits each individual groove modulation must match the timing as they were originally cut. SRA in other words. :-( Back to where we started.
Thank you Rushton and Restock for your supportive comments, and for even taking the time to unearth examples of why these attacks are without basis. I guess that's what honest men do. This little vendetta has appeared on multiple threads in the last couple of weeks, for whatever reason. I have chosen not to respond so as not to contribute to any deterioration in our normally enjoyable atmosphere. I will continue that policy. We all disagree from time to time, but that's no reason to poison the room. One wonders why the moderators haven't stepped in.
One point Raul made does need elaboration. "The industry standard for cutting head VTA is 20 degrees..." That may be true today, but manufacturing variances happen at all times and millions of records were cut before the standard existed. Old Deccas/Londons, for example, were cut at lower angles than more modern ones. If one only listens to recent releases then Raul's point would be more valid.
Golly, I sure hope Rushton's platter is flatter than mine. He paid enough for it. Why don'cha know, last Summer my li'l Teres actually absorbed 158 pounds of airborne moisture (Raul measured it for me). Why it blowed up so much it looked like Jabba the Hut. The spindle turned into an "inny"! |
PsychicAnimal,
Agree with you and Thomas about azimuth. Yes, we're learning, thanks for the props. As for who's obsessive, oh never mind! Trying to teach the VA crowd about belt drive digital? I was ROFL.
We're part owner of a Wally Analog Shop, which let us measure electrically what our eyes and ears told us about our old cartridge. An off-line cantilever and twisted motor make for lousy imaging and seperation. (Duh!) About 8-9db of crosstalk. Ouch.
New cartridge
Set up by eye on the mirror
First measurement with Wally: 0.5db
One tweak just for kicks: 0.2db
Is that okay? :-)
That cleansing and full body purge seems like good advice. Would RRL solutions help? I'd gladly spare the man a bottle or two. |
Romy actually posted a genuinely positive message - once - suggesting that I would benefit by changing to higher quality resistors for cartridge loading. I emailed him to say "thanks" and asked for specific recommendations. Rather to my bewilderment he sent a pointlessly insulting reply with no technical content whatsoever; it was actually rather psychotic. Audiogon banned him just a day or two later.
Rauliruegas,
You've chosen not to respond to my offer to discuss your irrelevant and unfounded criticisms in a more appropriate place. This makes it abundantly clear you were only trolling. I suggest you re-read the previous paragraph and keep it constantly in mind. |
what is the purpose vta adjustment? some say it is to duplicate the angle of the cutting head. If you accomplish that you have got it right. other's adjust vta for the "best sound".
Your two "alternatives" do not represent different purposes. They represent different techniques for achieving the same purpose. The purpose of our hobby for me is maximising musical enjoyment in my home. I set arm height for best sound, since that maximizes enjoyment, but isn't it likely that I'm also matching stylus angles, within the limits of my hearing of course? I listen for and hear certain specific things while adjusting arm height, so it's reasonable to think there's a consistent mechanical explanation. (That hypothesis is the topic of this thread.) My current unproven belief, until a better explanation comes along, is simply that I'm using "best sound" as a proxy for matching playback stylus angle to cutting stylus angle. Whether I'm matching as well as one could with a scope or other measuring device is of little practical significance. Optimum arm height varies from record to record. Having to drag out a scope to calculate arm height for every record would be wildly impractical for home listening. I can adjust arm height to my satisfaction while listening to and enjoying the music. As Rushton said, using a scope to set azimuth is preferable. This is because, unlike arm height, azimuth does not change from record to record. Use the scope once and forget it until you change cartridge or arm. If I were playing LPs for archival or commercial transcription to digital I would take the time to get SRA technically "perfect". But for home listening that seems over the top to me. |
Raul,
Thank you for the kind sentiments. I understand you're trying to share all that you've learned. I'd like to discuss your points/questions, but not here please. Restock started this thread to discuss VTA theory. Out of courtesy we should stick to his topic.
There are aspects to our OL/Moerch and Airy/90X decisions that you don't know about, simply because I've never posted them. I'd be happy to explain if you wish.
If you truly think my little audio history is of general interest, please start a new thread and repeat the above post. That way only the terminally bored will have to read about it! ;-) If you'd rather just have me email a response then let me know and I'll do that.
[/hijack]
Doug |
Thanks Francisco. I'll check that out once we've nailed down exactly what impedance we want with the Airy. |
Rene,
Something new and even more awkward just occured to me. It's so obvious I'm surprised we didn't think of it before. Geoff Husband didn't touch upon it in his article either.
On nearly all tonearms, including the TriPlanar and VPI that he discussed, changing the arm height moves the arm bearing straight up or down on a line perpendicular to the plane of the record surface. There are a few rare and immensely costly exceptions (Rushton?) but this simple geometry is true for the vast majority of arms.
You see what this means. If we begin with the arm bearing on the plane of the record, ANY movement of that bearing on a vertical line, whether up or down, will shorten the stylus-to-arm mount distance.
Therefore, whenever we adjust arm height on such an arm we are altering not only SRA but overhang too. This of course means we are altering our alignment point(s). Finally, assuming a pivoting arm with offset headshell, we are altering azimuth and stylus alignment too. Oy!
Even if an arm and cartridge were set up "perfectly" in every parameter, moving the vertical pivot of the arm vertically alters that setup.
If we were adjusting strictly for record thickness then setup geometry would be preserved, but IME that is not the case. Different arm height settings for similar thickness records are common IME.
I'm beginning to believe it's impossible to reproduce music via these crazy tools at all! Fortunately, the evidence of my ears tends to overwhelm the scepticism of my brain.
Crawls into corner, sucking thumb, but still tapping toes... |
Gregad, as long as you dont move the bdoy of the cartridge, pivot to stylus distance is a constant I worded my post very carefully. If you read it again you'll note I said the stylus-to-arm mount distance would change. Stylus-to-pivot is fixed, as you say, unless the armtube is made of rubber or the cartridge moves in the headshell. does'nt this mean you also changed the distance when you put on records of different thicknes? by re leveling the arm you have brought it back into alignment. Point covered, re-read my 6th paragraph. We're not disagreeing, just awkward stuff to describe in words rather than pictures. Twl, Totally agree. Of course obsessing about minute details is the point of this thread, so I'm right at home! ;-) |
I think those who've heard "the magic of right VTA", which obviously includes me, must concede that achieving it regularly requires a degree of effort and/or record-keeping that some just find too bothersome.
We don't mind doing it. Our ears seem to demand it, so we chose our tonearm with easy, accurate, repeatable and on-the-fly height adjustment. That was priority #1. No arm without that feature even made the shopping list, which of course kept the list both short and costly!
Yellow stickies with best arm heights are on each LP, so every play after the first is literally a two second adjustment. I dial in arm height while my Teres platter is spinning up to speed, so it takes no useful time at all.
Last night we spun the Classic 45rpm reissue of the Dorati/Firebird for the first time in many months. I wasn't recording arm heights when last we played it, so I guessed a setting typical for other 200g/45rpm Classic reissues. Gotta start somewhere.
The first half of side 1 was ghastly. Shrill to the point of pain. We'd never played this record with the TriPlanar/ZYX, but it never sounded this bad with the OL Silver/Shelter. WTF?
Throwing preconceived notions aside I started dialing the arm down, 1/4 turn at a time (that's a huge adjustment BTW). I finally got things tamed a full revolution (0.7mm) lower than normal for this type of record. Once my ears recovered from cowering behind the sofa I was able to dial it in to the usual sweet spot. Clearly Mr. Grundman & Co. were confused when they cut that lacquer. It's a fabulous record but the cutting head was set far lower than normal. |
Also this makes me really doubt the cheaper vta devices for Rega arms like expressimo and incognito. When you loosen the arm, change vta and then retighten, everything could have changed: The tonearm could slightly shift around in the mount changing cartridge alignment completely, you might hit an unstable thread on the mount, etc. Not the best method to get reproducible results. True, and they're also sort of a PIA to use. The bottom line is: If you want to bother about vta, you better do it right with a well-executed mechanism. Are you sure you're a physicist? That sounds more like an engineer to me. ;-) It's important to reiterate that we were driven to this by the demands of our ears. It was not theory driven nor, as Gregadd so aptly put it, a case of worshipping at some idol of theoretical perfection. It was only after we realized we could hear the differences that we went out, chased down the theory and sought out possible solutions. That's important in this hobby I think. Hear as many different things as you can, talk to others and try to figure out if what they hear is what you hear. Then choose solutions that best execute your mix of priorities within your budget. As Twl so wisely pointed out on Artar 1's cartridge thread, chasing perfection for its own sake is endless, futile and ultimately sterile. Yesterday Paul sent an email to a couple of friends describing a listening day with our new cartridge. Not a word about techniques or technology. He simply attempted to convey in words the intensely satisfying musical day he had experienced. :-) His unbridled enthusiasm and joy were utterly unlike his normally reserved self. That's what I was hoping for when we came back to analog after 15 years in the RBCD wasteland. Twl told me this could happen and he was right. His passion and that of other early Teres adopters helped us rediscover ours. Your path and mine to that passion may differ and perhaps they should differ. After all, the only way to truly hear live musicians in your home is to host live musicians. Short of that it's important to remember, at least when talking here, that stereo is just an illusion. But when the record spins and the eyelids close (mine do anyway)... |
