It does matter!
I use VH Audio AirLok PCOCC/foamed teflon hookup wire, in staggered guages, in my speakers- and yes it is a big improvement. Highly recommended for a re-wire job. Cost- about $150 for an average 3-way. |
Supra and why not direct wire? The
binding posts are the weak link far more than cables used. |
I am replacing capacitors and resistors on my vitage pioneer HPM-100 speakers. I also wish to change the internal wiring . Can someone suggest good wires for speakers internal connection ? All I need is 12 feet of wires and I wish to go upgrade on internal wires as well in hope of improvement in performance . |
When I said I was stuck with the speakers and cabling, I was being a little facetious. I am stuck with them only because I want to be, now that they are basically made for one another having the same wiring. |
My internal wires were bought from Acoustic Zen directly, which, I believe, are custom-made for them by Neotech. It is UPOCC copper. |
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Why do you say you are stuck with the speakers and cables? |
I recently became a believer in internal speaker wire. After upgrading the cap on the tweeter, on a whim, I replaced the internal wire( Van Den Hul CS-14 hybrid) with the exact same wire of my speaker cabling. The improvement, after a couple of weeks of break-in, was astonishing, equaling or bettering other cable upgrades in the system. All this time, I had internal cabling in the speakers that restricted the flow of the music, actually clogging up the flow of the finer nuances of the music. The problem now is, I'm stuck with both the speakers and the speaker cables, but that's okay with me. I'm happier now that the music is being portrayed more naturally in my room. |
Another way to view this ..is the fact that only a couple feet of wire is used internally, so it dosen't matter as much as the much longer run of external speaker wire.
A funny fact: when I (and others I know) used to use 12ga zip cord for speaker cable years ago..we would occasionally hear police radio transmissions through our systems as a cop car drove by. The idea being..zipcord is 2 parallel unshielded conductors..which acts like a RF antenna, especially when run in a straight 10-20 foot line.
Nrchy: I know manufacturers pay attention to the internal wiring, I simply feel that some pay more attention than others..and I know there are engineers/enthusiasts who say that fancy speaker cabling is all hogwash. These are usually older people who have fixated ideas of what is and what is not..and their hearing is rolled off due to age, so they'll never hear the difference anyway. Oh yeah...and some of those are the same people who design speakers and have wrong opinions about wire. |
Not to be condescending, but it makes no less sense to buy good speaker cable regardless of the internal wiring, than it does to buy a good CDP.
Many people don't want to get their hands dirty with mods, but anyone can hear the improvement with better cables or better CDPs. Whatever people can justify spending to improve the sound of their system is a worthwhile endevor...
The weakest link should be the next thing to improve, but sometimes links get missed because they are not obvious.
You are certainly wrong when you intimate that speaker manufacturers don't pay much attention to the interanl cables. There are as many divergant opinions about cables as there are speaker design, but most speaker makers are very much aware of the internals.
BUT some speaker makers spend the money where it shows, while others spend it where it sounds... |
Something else to ponder are the quality of the binding posts at the speaker and at the amp,they can also alter the sound of those expensive cables.I like to simply bypass the binding posts whenever I can.If the speaker cable and the internal speaker wire are terminated in spades, it is very simple to use a copper or brass bolt and nut and clamp the two spades one on top of the other.If the internal wiring is not spade terminated it is easy to do this and a wise man would opt to match the spades so that all are the same. |
Yes! Upgrade internal speaker wiring. Madisound indicates the use of Nordost Flatline (rectangular conductors, teflon dialectric), my friend made kit speakers with this wire and they sound more alive/spacious than the same speakers I made with Audioquest Indigo Litz.
Avoid usage of thick, hard to manipulate cable, sucks to work with in enclosures. I have seen the inside of dynaudio speakers (contour/evidence)..that use 12ga zip cord! Due to all the oxygen which can penetrate stranded cheap zip cord..I have seen this wire turn green (oxidize) in 5 yrs.
The best cable I have tried has always been solid core conductors (rectangular or round) with teflon insulation. Exotic arrangements of conductors (litz) don't seem to really improve sonics that much.
I suppose your only concern here is, that speaker designers voiced their designs with whatever wiring they used..so using different wire could throw off their initial voicing. However..if dynaudio uses zipcord..you can discount their engineers belief/understanding of the effects of wiring. Their speakers sound dry and lifless anyway. |
I totally agree,my 6.9 Norh speakers are so beautiful.
But upon opening,the wiring ,used inside, I could tell it
compromise the sound,so I decided to use my siltech
wire, to rewire it, the result in unbelievable.I dont
blame Norh though, the speakers are only $950 shipped.
No way they can use siltech for their asking price. |
I have performed quite a few modifications to existing commercial loudspeaker designs, some of them being as simple as removing and replacing the factory installed cabling with "better" aftermarket wiring. In every case that i can recall, there was always a very noticeable improvement in the sonic presentation. Then again, this may have come from making better connections just as much as replacing the existing wiring. The wiring used in many of these modifications was nothing fancy in itself and available from just about any source of aftermarket cabling. We are talking about cabling that i paid WAY, WAY under a $1 per foot for, yet it was FAR superior to what was used in speaker designs costing multiple thousands of dollars.
Having said that, a very carefully designed product that is "computer optimized" with very tight production tolerances could be "somewhat mangled" by trying to "upgrade" the internal wiring. As Gregm mentions above, some designs take the specific electrical characteristics of the internal cabling into account, both electrically and sonically.
As a case in point, i ran into this with one specific brand / type of speaker many years ago. When i pulled these apart, i found that the manufacturer was using different wiring in various parts of the loudspeaker circuit. Not only was there a difference in the wiring from the woofer to the tweeter, but also what was running on the positive and the negative to the woofer. For a relatively low cost mass produced speaker line, this demonstrated to me that there are still some products / manufacturers that not only pay attention to details, but also build products with their heart and soul invested into them. Sean
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PS... It is NOT abnormal for an aged loudspeaker system with all new internal wiring / new solder connections to sound bright, incoherent and "peaky" when first fired up after the modifications / internal cabling replacement. In many cases, the speaker will sound appallingly bad, to the point of one thinking that the speaker needs to be "broken in" again and / or is beyond salvaging.
Playing the Ayre Acoustics disc ( Track 7 ) on repeat for an extended period of time can make an absolutely staggering positive difference. The more volume that you can safely feed into the system, the better it will work. Having said that, use caution as this specific track can damage your woofers, tweeters and possibly shake things off the wall. Given that the first 5 seconds of this track are "digital silence", DO NOT attempt to initially overcompensate by cranking up the gain if you can't hear anything. What you will hear will be the sound of your woofer cones popping out of their baskets, your amplifier clipping and your wallet draining at a rapid rate.
Before doing this, I would first listen to the speakers as they are after modification. You might not believe the difference in sonics after a few days of consistently applied signal using a disc such as the Ayre. Until you experience something like this for yourself, it is all too easy to be an "unbeliever" in terms of things like solder joints and wiring "breaking in". |
Jaybo, what speaker cable are you using? |
sooner or later(hopefully sooner) most come to the conclusion that copper is copper is copper is copper is copper. there are no 'magical' copper mines on a distant planet |
I build loudspeaker I perfer to direct wire avoiding binding posts to me it doesnt make sence to run crazy costly cables to large metal binding posts and then having dissimilar cheap wire inside after posts.If performance and not audiophile validation is the goal.You can get better sound out of hiquality affordable wire run direct to drivers and xover then you could ever get with the best wire run to binding posts. |
What is the use of Highend speaker cables,when the quality of our speakers internal cabling is inferior than the speaker cables used to connect our amps to our speakers The following apply to any spkr cable -- not only expensive ones: a) Something is better than nothing? b) The internal cables link each driver to PART of the freq range; the external cable carries the full spectrum c) The internal cables may (or may not) be an integral part of the xover, connecting the xover to each driver; the external ones connect the amp to the xover, hence perceived differences in the "sound". d) I would be equally as worried about the connections involved. Cheers |
Looking in the Musicdirect catalog I recieved today I found and add for 6' speaker cables for $8900 , and a pair of interconnects for $3995 , well known brands. I'm sure there are more expensive examples.
You have a very good point. Let's say it cost the manufacturer $40 per speaker for internal wireing. Then you buy $2000 speaker cables?
It would be good to know you have high quality cables. My personal opinion is that successful high end cable manufacturers laugh all the way to the bank everytime they sell a pair.
Now I'm thinking I need to take a look inside my speakers.. |
Here's a good one to ponder...
What to do about the 130 feet of fine wire in your tweeter, midrange and woofer coils!!
And you were worried about a few feet between the drivers??
YIKES!!!! |
Well I think Thiel uses straightwire, Eggleston Works uses transparant. I think most use quality wire...what we buy on the open market is aimed at a target audience of audio and videophiles. If there wasn't a need/market we wouldn't have the equivilent of a small mortgage in wire, IMHO. |
I have two sets of speakers, one is internaly wired with DH Labs Silver Sonic cable and the other uses Tara Labs RSC. I also have an inexpensive pair of Acoustic Energy speakers that I put in Canare cable. It makes little sense to run 10 or 12 gauge cables into speakers with 16 or 18 gauge internal cables.
The same thing can exist in amps where 18 or 16 gauge wire is used to connect output section to speaker connectors. Changing these wires is a great DIY project. |
Can't anyone give an oppinion on this! |
Absolutely. I am presently getting my KEF 104/2 upgraded; silver/copper MIL spec garde wire from a U.K. source for the mids/high and heavier gauge pure copper wire for the twin woofers. This company in Montreal called FixAudio are doing the work for me. He refurbished a pair of KEF 105's of his and boy what a significant improvement! I am also upgrading the caps and some resistors.
Regards,
Michael |
