Room and speaker placement will make the 2 systems more similar than different.
Interesting Result of Comparison of Expensive and Budget Setups
My DAC has both RCA and XLR outputs. My 1 year old tube preamp has both RCA and XLR inputs. My 10+ years old budget 5.1 channel receiver has only RCA inputs. In a sudden, I had an idea to want to make two setups to compare the sound.
Setup A (tube):
Tube amps (50 watts per channel) and preamp, a pair of top of the line 2-1/2 way tower horn speakers of this speaker series with the name brand audiophile series of XLR interconnect, power and speaker cables, total MSPR cost was way way over $10K in retail stores. All components are fairly new.
Setup B (solid state):
AV receiver (95 watts per channel) and a pair of midrange smaller 4-way tower cone speakers with stock or self-made RCA interconnect, power and speaker cables, total MSPR cost was $1K top. All components are 10+ years old.
Source, volume, room treatment, and listening position were the same for both setups. I used mute function to turn on and off the sound simultaneously on both setups to try to hear the differences immediately. Here were the results:
1. Setup A was sounding slightly warmer. Bass was slightly less punchy as well.
2. Setup B was sounding noticeably brighter and a bit more dynamic. Bass was also a bit punchier.
3. Sound stage, vocal clarity and musical presence were about the same.
My thoughts:
1. Since there was no huge difference in sound quality between two setups, I recommend not to let the price tags drive your choice when you shop for your gears.
2. High quality playback source is the key to have great music, not necessary the amps, the preamps or the cables.
I would like to hear your opinions. Welcome to share.
14 responses Add your response
PS. Also tried Focal 706 in white gloss. Stunning to look at, A very large and tall soundstage and under $480 delivered but the Focal 807Ws gave a more lifelike sound. Piano among other instruments seemed stretched, distorting them a bit to get that large soundstage. Most wouldn't notice that IMO. So I recommend the Focal 706s used and MA Silver 100s at their closeout price.
|
I've finally found a combo that works well together and for me. Trying many amps and speakers over the years, there's always something to complain about. At one time I was only satisfied when pairing two speaker pairs together. I found paradigm and polk (from 80s/90s to complement each other to complement each other. Paradigms lacked an energetic upper mids and highs while polk was overly bright by itself. Together they work well even if imaging wasn't pinpoint. The tone was good. The issue was stacking Large bookshelves on top of each other. Did the same with Paradigm SE-1 and MA RX-1s as well. While smaller speakers, it was still two pairs. RX-1s gave me the low end and the highs while SE-1s enhanced the midrange and also worked well for movies. The RX-1s were far too laid back for movies and rock music but good for most everything else. Together they were sublime. Then I added Focal 807Ws to the mix and got what I needed, 1 pair to do everything better or well enough. Upgraded my amps from a 90's Marantz, to an HK 3490 and finally jumped at a Hegel h160. The Hegel and the Focals worked perfectly together but the amp was overkill for the speakers. If I needed more expensive speakers, floorstanders and were in an environment where better placement of speakers as well as playing them louder were possible, the amp would make more sense. But as I get older, my listening tends to be more low level to low moderate volumes. With the Hegel I liked the tone, warmth with speed of the low end and it gave enough detail, resolution, separation and depth to be happy. And it was smooth and refined. But 40 lbs gets heavier over time so I was looking for a smaller, lighter less powerful option that could give me similar results for less $$$ and lbs. I had a chance for a NIB Audiolab 8300A Integrated Amplifier for under $600, read the reviews, wondered why it was so inexpensive and vacillated until the last one sold out. Now it's a grand or more higher and I won't touch it at that price. That's the one that got away story. The search continued. Considered and/or tried Rega, IOTAVX, SoundArtist SA-200IA (QC issues and too bright), Fosi Audio HD-A1 (very veiled and unrefined); an A-400z Emotiva (extended highs, more muddy low bass with less layering, detail as well and a very flat stage without any sense of depth plus it was large and heavy); a Musical Fidelity M2si (awful loose and muddy bass and a gritty upper mid and unrefined highs...really guys? Maybe for Rock) among others with less than acceptable results for my needs. Tried some inexpensive class D which are good enough on desktop for computer for podcasts, non HD music but still CD quality as well as easy to take on a trip. So these have their place. ChiFi options are getting better though and are definitely a contender for lower priced, smaller footprint and weight considerations. Probably includes tube amps for those who prefer that. There's a price/performance option for every level of listener. While there were alot of better quality options in class D, most were between $1-2.5 grand. Definitely lighter if not a smaller footprint but most were amps so I'd have needed a pre. Enter the small class AB options. While I looked at and even tried ChiFi, Emotiva, heard a Rega Brio briefly and liked what I heard, I eventually came across a review by Soundnews of a little amp called the Keces E40. Everything Sandu was saying about the amp is what I was looking for soundwise. I didn't expect it to sound as good as my Hegel, found there was no return policy but other reviews compared it favorably to Rega. It went on sale during the BF/CM weekend two years ago (but didn't last year) so I bit the bullet thinking this is my one chance and I wasn't going to miss it like I did with the 8300A. In a nutshell, this amp was made for me and satisfies my needs just fine. In comparison to my Hegel, its' performance at my listening levels was very, very close. I could say the Hegel was better and it was but by a hair in most cases, if that, at my listening levels and in my space. I liked the Hegel for it's smoothness with a good balance of richness and speed which this little Keces amp has. The Keces E40 is small, weighs in at 10 lbs and it has balls. Rich, tight bass, vg mids and ample highs though not overly extended and you only notice that in comparision to some other amps. So, while not perfectly neutral, it's close enough and never sounds overly bright but I wouldn't call it warm, though it adds enough IMO. It's a nice fit for Focal speakers. The actual power output was measured at 34/61 watts for 8/4 ohms respectively when reaching .7% distortion and there is plenty of headroom for even my loudest listening, the Company states 15 amps per channel capable. And depth, this amp gives some depth to the music as well when many others could not. I tried to downsize my speakers as well, and nothing outright beat the Focals with the W driver. I tried a Quad S-2 and while it had greater detail and resolution, and I liked it for movie soundtracks, it left me emotionally dead for music. Highly analytical, but boring, not to mention a flat as a pancake depth of stage. The only speaker I found nice and could compete was a somewhat smaller MA Silver 100 6ed., new at under $700 delivered. The MA looked stunning in black ash and the grilles disappeared at night. The lows and low midbass/midrange were very rich and I liked the added bass while the Focals were still strong, tight and a bit faster. So the marginal pleasure I got wasn't enough for an outright win. The MA's also played wider which I liked, they seem to go a bit beyond the speakers at times. It was very close and the presentation of each speaker was very different. Both detailed and resolving but it seemed in different ways. I could prefer the MAs on some music but mostly still preferred the Focals, bias perhaps? If I didn't have the Focals now, I would have easily kept the Silver 100s. I wanted to keep them. The only issue that stood out was that the upper mids and highs were not, to me, as musical and found the highs on the Focals to be displayed more delicately, more wispy, more pleasing with a more pleasing upper midrange too. The MAs for music could get a little shouty perhaps. It was more like with dynamic range, the Focals could go hi/low with dynamics faster, from lower passages to louder passages more correctly while the MAs just threw it all at you. I think they designed them for a nice home theater presentation which they excelled at. So for this reason I sent them back and ended my search for speakers. Final system, with peace of mind and satisfaction: Keces E40 (still a great value at its' regular price when everything else has gone up as well) I should sell these I'm such a big believer in its' capabilities. Made in Taiwan btw by a highly competent Audio company. Topping D70S (a good compromise between price (on sale)/performance and something between the more analytical DS options and lower priced R2R dacs) Focal 807W (and the system works nicely with Triangle Zeta Plaisir as well and these play nice with class D; note, tried a Borea 2 and while it could play big, I found the tonality to be off) Blue Jeans cables (takes a little bit more off the highs, like 2%, but still nice and long enough for flexibility in speaker placement). Marantz CD6006 used as a transport. That has been my Audio journey and experience. Pretty much audiophile enough at a reasonable budget price. Can I get better? Yes. If I needed a more live presentation and had them in an environment for proper placement, more volume, etc. But I like keeping what I have left of my hearing.
|
There's no question in my mind that the best equipment I have ever heard costs more. It does more. It renders more subtlety, more tonal color, greater image size, more complex soundstage rendering, greater presence and slam, and both greater microdynamics AND macrodynamics.
You can get a few of these qualities in lower end systems, but, in general, the higher up you go, the more of these qualities are rendered. |
@mofojo My first true hi fi experience with with Vienna Accoustics speakers at a local shop and it sort of blew my mind. When I was in the market the shop was exclusively Focal and I immediately fell in love with the sound from Grande Utopias down to the 706v bookshelf speakers (hooked to the big system). I purchased the most expensive ones that I could justify and have never once had a negative thought about the purchase. When I first purchased them I had an Onkyo receiver and the results was completely unsatisfactory which lead to the Integra 50.1 receiver that I still have on the home theater side of things. |
True more expensive does not automatically equal better performance. Usually it does to a certain extent especially at high or very low volumes but law of diminishing returns starts to set in very quickly. I would say 2k would be my lower limit all in for a very good system. Used of course. Gotta watch them deals! 4 ohm or less speakers will need a beefster amp to sound their best. Something more friendly I don’t think the difference is as large. Put a Revel or Dynaudio on a Denon receiver and you would likely get better sound out of a Best Buy speaker using the same receiver. If your willing to go 10 or so years old you can put together a 15k msrp system for 2k no problem. Just don’t be in a hurry. |
I think A/B testing is fun and informative, especially if done "blind". A few years ago, I ran a tests to see if people could hear the difference between amplifiers. While not truly a scientific study, I can fairly confidently say, "Yes, there's a difference, and more expensive amps generally do perform better."
|
Since when does price have to do with sound? It comes down to design and parts quality. In your set-up are there any components with better transformers? Capacitors? Resistors? Etc.?
So, you are basically comparing apples to apples. Give me the DAC and the tube amplifier and then let's upgrade them. Then you can do a comparison.
Happy Listening. |
That is an interesting comparison. I would just recommend no one generalize your experience into a rule of thumb. Virtually no two systems are alike. While really well chosen budget gear can sound really good and really poorly chosen expensive gear can sound poor. However, carefully chosen synergistic expensive stuff will significantly out perform carefully chosen and synergistic budget gear. … well that has been my experience over fifty years and many systems. I currently own three systems, two under my UserID. |
“…Since there was no huge difference in sound quality between two setups, I recommend not to let the price tags drive your choice when you shop for your gears.,,,” Ignoring the obvious exclusion for $$ spent stupidly by the arrogantly vane and still uniformed …
Audio forum parties accept the prevailing basic tenet of “You get what you pay for “ as they move into higher $$$$ strata equipment Intuitively, It’s never been a $$$ automatically drives audio satisfaction, but as we upgrade, we do pay $$$ for that ethereal greater audio satisfaction from a better sound performance quality. Otherwise, why upgrade? I have 4 systems … $1500 - $50,000. All are satisfying, but they do not compare as equivalents / peers in any Head to head … , Yes, there is a huge progressive difference in sound quality between them empirically. |
cars, food, vacations, clothing and so on... if you don't know how to spend the money wisely you are likely to waste it that is why this forum exists for hifi gear to reproduce music, knowledge and experience matters (good hearing too) |
I recently did a quick A/B between my original setup (essentially) and my current setup. Original - Integra 50.1 Receiver (direct mode) to Focal 836v speakers Current - Maverick Audio TubeMagic D2 DAC (with mods) to Pathos Classic One MkIII (with 1960s Mullard) to Focal 836v speakers. The A/B comparison didn't yield nearly the gap in sound that is apparent with any significant listening time. I think it shows two things: (1) You don't have to spend a ton of money to have an enjoyable sound. (2) If you love your speakers you'll enjoy the music. |
