Manufacturers also often report the output power into 8 ohms low so that the output power spec for their amp doubles down into 4 ohms. So so true! i’ve said it many times. Especially with Class-D’s and or complimentary Mosfets. Many manufacturers purposely understate their 8ohm wattage to make the 4ohm look like it’s doubling, and the 2ohm is either non existent because the amp can't take it, or it sometimes goes backwards from the 4ohm wattage figure. Stereophile expose this with many bench tests, but they don’t pull them up on it, (potential advertisers would be the reason). They leave it up to those who are able to see it in the tests. Cheers George |
To georgehifi’s point, when checking specs, it is better to find a review with measurements than look at the manufacturer’s specs. Manufacturer’s often give "nominal" or average specs. An amp that has a 4 ohm impedance spec may dip well below 4 ohms in reality.
Manufacturers also often report the output power into 8 ohms low so that the output power spec for their amp doubles down into 4 ohms.
Also, you can’t judge how an amp sounds by looking at the specs. You have to listen, as we all know. An amp that doubles down doesn’t necessarily have better bass performance than one that doesn’t.
There’s no substitute for listening.
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Fan118,
Thanks for your reply. I got to hear that Essence.
I really liked the Dag Progression pre and power that I auditioned and am awaiting the integrated version (they offer it with a dac too). This is for an office-library system.
Aries Cerat - sounds great. Another manufacturer I need to devote more time to. But for this system I'm concentrating on an integrated, preferably with a built-in dac. I did have an extended audition of the Ypsilon Phaeton last year and I must say it was simply outstanding. Amongst the best integrateds I've heard. It's a hybrid design. Be sure to fill us in on how those Gryphon's sound in your home space once they're burned in.
Cheers, Jay |
Hi Cervantes - the sound signature in my opinion is only slightly different (ie still the Gryphon sound) especially the authority is still there which controls the bass very well. The soundstage and depth are on a different level compare to Diablo 300. I think the speaker matching is quite important for the Gryphons and for me it's either you like it or hate it (at this price point you got a lot more options).
With regards to Dag Progression, unfortunately no as I'm not sure if there's a dealer in the UK and even if there is the information is rather limited.
If I want to upgrade the amp in the future I may have a look at Aries Cerat. I saw a full set of their equipment today and absolute gorgeous. |
Congrats! Gryphon certainly delivers the goods!
Did you find the Essence to sound significantly different than the Diablo? Or is it more about the control and grip over those woofers? I only had an abbreviated audition of the Essence and didn't get a good feel for it.
Did you get a chance to audition the new Dag Progression Integrated by any chance? Got my eye on it.
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fan118 OP
👍 For getting the Gryphon Essence, it will serve you and and any future speakers you get for a long time to come. Also good work doing the ground work before buying, too many just grab things mentioned here to get by "good doers" without looking at the ability of them into the loads they will see. Cheers George |
Congratulations @fan118 !! That looks like an outstanding amp!
Did you get the matching Essence preamp as well? Or running DAC directly to Amp? Is your DAC a Linn?
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Hi Jay, thanks for the feedback. Indeed T+A is extremely smooth, neutral and balanced! I liked the amp a lot.
I just came back from the audition (Diablo 300 and Essence). The Diablo 300, like many have already said the 'authority' is def. one of the best ways to describe the characteristic of amp and it's warmer (Class A for first 10W) than T+A. However, the Diablo 300 can be a bit harsh for the treble and it wasn't able to tame the diamond tweeter in contrast to T+A. The room at the dealer's place is ideal so I don't think it's the problem of the interface with the room.
In summary it's really down to personal preferences, either Diablo 300 or T+A PA 3100 HV. Personally I would choose T+A PA 3100 HV over Diablo 300 to pair with B&W 8 series including an important factor - the 'look' (like George said Wife Acceptance Factor).
I've put a deposit on the Essence power amp. The dealer unboxed a brand new power amp for me to audition, paired with Linn streaming DAC. Without burn-in and warming up, the Essence is just on another level...it is way better than Diablo 300 and T+A PA 3100 HV in every single aspect I can think of and it was able to drive the B&W 802d3 easily (I cranked up the volume on purpose to test how the amp can drive very dynamic classical music).
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Hi,
New here and would like to chime in. :-)
The Diablo and T+A PA3100 are two of my favourite integrateds, in fact I own the T+A. I ran it with the B&W 805D3 for a few months and the synergy was pretty fine though not spectacular in any particular way. Certainly not overly bright, dry, or analytical though, the amp is too naturally warm for that. The T+A is actually known for it's liquidity and smoothness in the midrange and I would characterise it's overall sound signature as being at the other end of the spectrum from Devialet. Full and solid soundstage, wonderful transparency, a gorgeously textured mid bass, and sweets singing highs. And tons of unforced detail and dynamics. Not everyones cup of tea but certainly impressive. The Diablo 300 is an extraordinary music-making machine. I must say I now run my T+A with my Wilson Sabrinas and I very much prefer that combination than the B&W. Perhaps it's the speaker and it's interface with your room that is not jiving with you.
Cheers - Jay |
I’d also need to factor in my longer term plan for upgrade (or not!) and ’approval’ by partner for the ’look’ of the amp. Gryphon’s look awesome in an "Art Deco" sort of way, very WAF (wife acceptance factor) friendly. It's been a while now but I think for memory the 2 x sub outs on the Diablo can not only be configured to be L&R "pre outs", but for L&R "main in" also, to turn it into a poweramp as well. Cheers George |
Hi George, actually is at the dealer's place. I'm indeed aware of the differences, just want to compare the Essence (pre/power combo and streaming DAC straight into power amp) vs Diablo 300 if that makes sense.
My listening room is approx. 17' x 15' ft and listening volume is low - medium so 50w into 8ohm should be fine.
I'd also need to factor in my longer term plan for upgrade (or not!) and 'approval' by partner for the 'look' of the amp. |
I’m going to audition both Essence and Diablo 300 paring with the 802 D3s over the weekend! This is getting done at your place I hope? As you know the sound of your room and setup Looking at the differences, the Essence should be even sweeter using the same preamp, being higher Class-A biased, (the Diablo preamp I think can be done with programming to make the two sub outs to be pre outs?) If I remember right when it was here. Depends on how loud you like to go but the Essence should be the better so long as it’s not near it’s 50w-8ohm limit, in the bass it’s good for 200w being down to around 2ohm Cheers George |
@andrewkelley - lol exactly! the 9 DSD is indeed a good dac at that price point as well.
PS. I'm going to audition both Essence and Diablo 300 paring with the 802 D3s over the weekend! I'm sure I'll know which amp to purchase afterwards. |
@fan118 I use the t+a DAC 8 dsd remote to control my HV for that exact reason. The HV remote is like a weapon it’s so big and heavy |
thanks Thyname. I'll try the toe-in later. Perhaps less toe-in where the diamond tweeters point just outside my shoulders rather than 45 degree placement.
I do enjoy the T+A amp a lot plus very nice looking especially the VU meters at night and the titanium finish! On the flip side the remote control is like from the 80s...very chunky and heavy and I think it looks ugly (personal opinion).
@smer319 - CH Precision i1 is beyond my budget and I'm sure even if I can afford it I'll then upgrade my speakers and think the amplifier isn't good enough :) |
I have the T+A PA 3100 HV paired with my B&W 803 D3 and I never felt this combo is too analytical. As a matter of fact, I love the warmth of the mid-range I get from these speaker with the T+A, something I did not get with my previous amps.
Having said this, we all hear differently, so there is that |
I love the CH Precision i1 and the Vinni Rossi L2i SE very much.
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Thanks Bilatata, indeed that’s why I’m looking for a warmer sound of amp for now. I do like B&W a lot especially the turbine head, soundstage and bass. However I had ProAc and Harbeth speakers previously as well.
I may get ProAc bookshelf speakers on my working desk so I can listen to both speakers at different times :). |
You have to remember that the B&W is a very analytical and clinical sounding speaker to begin with. Maybe look at other speakers that are warmer. Sonos Faber maybe. Just thinking out loud.
All the best
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Sanders Magtech will drive those B&W like you wouldn’t believe. I auditioned a t+a a3000 hv amp cs the magtech and couldn’t tell the difference, except the magtech is $15,000 less |
Consider Pass int 250 with a Lumin streamer/dac |
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I think the T+A could handle the bass with your B&Ws just fine, but talk to someone who knows for sure before spending any money. |
ah ok! that explains (electronics isn't my field I just know the basic).
thanks again.
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The Dev. 440 wasn’t able to control the bass well (in contrast to the loaner T+A PA 3100 HV) Because it’s class-d mosfet, they just get flustered driving those kind of loads. And I think the Diablo 300 will even be better again, as TA doesn’t publish any 2ohm specs Cheers George |
Thanks George appreciate your feedback!
I think you hit the nail on the head. When I listen to very dynamic classical music the Dev. 440 wasn't able to control the bass well (in contrast to the loaner T+A PA 3100 HV) and I believe it's one of the reasons of listening fatigue.
I'll soon audition the amp! |
fan118 Hi fan, with a 3ohm load from 100hz to 1khz in the bass and mid bass for the B&W 802 D3’s and again in the low bass at 70hz where there’s also -64 degrees of negative phase angle for the amp to contend with as well. https://www.stereophile.com/images/616BW802fig1.jpgThese speakers want current, the Gryphon Diablo 300 would be my pick, partly because of the many bi-polar output transistors and massive power supply they use, the best formula for big current. Gryphon Diablo 300:
The extreme wideband frequency response of the Diablo 300 extends from 0.5 Hz to 350 kHz and its prodigious 300 Watt (8 Ohms) power output. The extreme high current capability of the Diablo 300 allows it to double its output to 600 Watts in a 4 Ohm load and deliver a massive 950 Watts into 2 Ohms.
Cheers George |
