Just a quick update, as I have a PhoenixUSB in my house for three days now:
Bottom line: this thing works. And Nuno is right, the improvement is not subtle. Whoever is staying in the sidelines, should take the plunge. I am pretty sure people will love it, once becomes widely available, as currently only dealer demos are available with very few exceptions.
And by the way, the whole “every modern DAC should be able to remove noise” thing.... good luck with that. My DAC is no slouch, and more than “a decent modern DAC”. It’s a MSB Discrete DAC with dual Discrete power supplies, and the ProISL / Pro USB module combo (optical isolation) I am linking below:
@thyname It’s easier for some people to complain than to learn. They’re afraid that their orderly world will be turned upside down. They resort to ridicule instead of investing in education.
His posts are similar to an American tourist who is asking a French gendarme for directions. If the officer doesn’t understand English, the American simply yells louder.
@steakster : 100% correct. This dude has 17 (seventeen) posts on a thread for something he clearly has zero interest in trying. I wonder why. So typical of such characters....
His posts are similar to an American tourist who is asking a French gendarme for directions. If the officer doesn’t understand English, the American simply yells louder.
Djones51 A few days ago I was a little sceptical also of the Phoenix , Hmm a 3000 $ plus signal re-clocker ? after placing an order for a Innuos Zenith I looked a little deeper into what the Phoenix actually is ,...You remind me of a kid I once knew that lived down the street , his bicycle for some reason didn’t have a seat however he rode it anyway. he then would complain his a** was sore instead of taking steps to remedy the issue .
Thyname of course ,,,..One last thing ,, LOL claiming to have a subjective stance still without actually listening to the Phoenix in and out of a system i find pretty funny 😆 Whoa 😳 ...of course his comments are completely meaningless and empty ,...
I too would love to understand the science behind the sonic impact. However, that's not to say I dis-believe it's possible without a proven explanation. That's because I have an asynchronous-USB DAC (Hegel HD30) and use USB to connect my Aurender N100 (the only digital output that music server provides actually). Still points under the Aurender made the DAC sound different. Changing USB cables made the DAC sound different... in ways that made me want, or not want, to listen to the music. I auditioned about 5 USB cables... everything from the Curious cable to Wireworld Platinum to Ansuz Diamond (@ $2K) to the Inakustik. All cables resulted in an appreciably different sound. It wasn't placebo or wanting to hear differences... rather the opposite... I was dumb-stuck and frustrated that an "asynchronous DAC that has it's own master clock and pulls data packets" could, in any way, sound different based on data transmission (or by whatever could account for stillpoints under the server). Lucky for me, the most affordable cable... the Inakustik, in my system, was the clear winner, and also the most affordable of every audiophile-cable I tried.
The bottom line is there appears to be more to "the sound" of USB protocol... even when the DAC owns the master clock. Whether it's noise leakage from the source to DAC via the cable, or whether it's something else that somehow affects the DAC's d/a process or output stage... or leaks along cables down to the preamp or amp... who knows. But it's there.
I'd love for good science to find out what's happening... not so audiophiles can stop arguing whether or not it's possible for them to hear what they are hearing, but rather so audio engineers can properly design their gear to be immune or less impacted by understood variables.
p.s. my point about mentioning USB cables affecting sound with an asynchronous USB DAC is that it illustrates that there must be more to the puzzle that merely a "master clock controlled by the DAC"... variables that can originate with the signal coming from the server to your DAC and ultimately influencing the sound of the resulting analog signal. It then stands to reason that these variables can be addressed... seems to be what this Innuos device is doing.
Thank you for your report on the Phoenix in your system. So did you use an aftermarket PC, footers and a high quality USB cable or did you keep it basic for the demo? Can you elaborate more on what you heard?
I might have to re think my stance on pairing a Phoenix with my ZENith mk2 SE vs selling my SE and going for the Statement.
Hi @Ron17: I am using an Audioquest Hurricane PC for PhoenixUSB. USB cable is a cheap China made from Ghent. I have a Sonore by Cardas USB cable from ZENith MK3 to PhoenixUSB.
In terms of sound: what I hear is a cleaner presentation, with a very audible improvement in instrument separation. A bit more focus to music. Definitely “smoother” sound, less “glare” that makes the sound more pleasant, and less tiring when listening for extended period of time.
@dvdboulet: I shared here the technical explanation of how PhoenixUSB works I received from Nuno at Innuos. A bit more info than it’s already in website, and a clarification on what is reclocked vs what isn’t. Unfortunately as it always happens in these public audio forums, such stuff gets buried inside the numerous interventions naughtiness caused by the trolls.
Now that our assigned Troll for this thread deleted all his posts (good riddance IMHO), it’s probably time to repeat the most common misconception about reclocking function of PhoenixUSB:
I don't think people realize that the USB signal does not get reclocked by the DAC. What they reclock on the DAC is the audio signal that is transported via USB. What the PhoenixUSB shows is that the USB communication components themselves are affecting the performance of the DAC. This has also independent of the isolation of the DAC. Innuos has tested on numerous DACs, some very well known in the market for its galvanic isolation, and the result is still the same - they can't really isolate the data lines so the source still matters.
Basically: PhoenixUSB reclocks the USB signal with a very high-end OCXO clock, which is powered by its own power supply. Do not confuse this with the clocking for the audio signal, they are not touching the audio signal at all. They are reclocking the USB commnunication between the source and the DAC. PhoenixUSB does not work at the audio level but at the USB protocol level. And I am leaving out the two other aspects of the design. Namely (copy/paste):
1. It regulates the 5V line from the source, helping remove some noise from the source itself
2.. It replaces the 5V power by one of the included Statement-level linear power supplies existing on the PhoenixUSB
And I already shared my own impressions of actually owning the PhoenixUSB for myself, but that’s of course one man’s data point. So it’s all subjective, and I understand the skepticism.
For what’s worth: I did a few A/B tests last evening as well as today. Nothing scientific, no blind tests certified by a panel, just me, with and without Phoenix USB in the path. Results are clear, this brings my setup to a new level. It’s not even close. Not subtle. This is change of the same magnitude of upgrading to a better DAC (I have owned over two dozen DACs over the past 15 years)
I am definitely not hallucinating, as our assigned troll makes it sound.
I am not an Innuos shill. Just a happy customer. First with a ZENITH MK3 about a year ago. Now with Phoenix USB
I'm no longer sure what the meaning of "reclocking" is as used in this thread.
With asyncronous (not at the same time) USB, the pulling of data from the source (USB) is done by the DAC. The source (the PC or streamer) has no effective control over it, and must wait to be called.
It will take a lot for me to understand how ANY clock in the middle of this would affect the outcome, except perhaps to make things worse.
The DAC doesn't "reclock" because it IS the clock.
@erik_squires : I fully understand your comment. I was in the same position, and I (still) don’t pretend to understand the reclocking part, re: the audio vs. signal part of the USB transmission. The proof in the pudding (is this the right word?) is trying for yourself, in your own system. Everything else is just talk and theory. That is of course if this intriguing enough for you to make you try
@david_ten : you are absolutely right. This caught me off guard with USB cables. While I am absolutely convinced on the Sonore by Cardas USB cable, from previous experiments, I did not have a second good USB cable when the PhoenixUSB arrived. Unprepared. I will definitely experiment further. I am eying a Shunyata Sigma USB, but too expensive for me for now
Another thing people don’t realize about USB cables is that they’re directional, just like any other cable or cord.
If that is true then you are out of luck as nearly all USB cables have different plugs at each end so you cannot change direction of cable by plugging in different. Only a very few rare USB A extension cables would be capable of that feat.
That’s why USB cables have to be controlled for directionality during manufacture, you know like AudioQuest does. Just like they do for HDMI cables, any cables, any power cords. Hel-loo! I thought you got the memo. 😛
Now that I have listened to what the Innuos Phoenix brings well it is absolutely a step up in playback performance as described by Thyname ,Stevehuff and others here . It didn’t take long to realize this just seconds into the first track the demonstration with the Innuos Zenith was the quickest purchase decision I’ve made in some time though I didn’t get around to checking out two other brands of re-clockers with power supplies the Phoenix is not just a re-clocker . Finally I’m getting somewhere with digital playback.
Cool, been keen on trying one of these out but my dealer has not been able to get hold of one. They say they have one inbound but that has been the story for several weeks. Will be interested in your experience going forward.
Now that I have spent some quality time with the Innuos Zenith 3 I find this server to be the best playback sound quality I have experienced to date in my own system .
I am absolutely thrilled with the Zenith and with the up and coming Innuos Phoenix including a completely different and new AC management from Synergistic Research, thanks in part to David_tens highest recommendation for this product line I can’t imagine the next bump up in playback performance will be like ,..
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
