Glad to see these great speakers are still around. On my Matrix 800's, I have found the best results when using a pair of Bryston 7 bsst mono amps. These amps replaced Pass Lab x-600 monos that cost over twice as much. The brystons offer more speed and control of the bass along with incredible resolution. Not to mention a 20 year warranty.
Ideal amp for B&W matrix 800
Hello everyone, I am looking for a great amp for my B&W MATRIX 800 speakers (the tall ones with the angular shaped bass cabinets, not the nautilus ones!).
I have a tight budget and live in Belgium.
My cd is Accuphase 500, preamp is solid state, no tone controls magnum Mp330.
I am looking for a 3d soundstage with lots of depth and emotional music playing. I therefore think of class A amps.
Hence... older krells? Tube amps would be a bad match as the speakers each have two 12 inch woofers. They are 4Ohms, with an impedance dip to 3 ohms in 100-200 Hz region. they are 93 dB/1W sensitivity though...
I could spend about 2000 euro but would prefer around 1000-1500 so I have budget for an accuphase preamp for phono (a c-280 or so). Would appreciate your input guys!
At the moment I localised a krell KSA-100 MKii for 850 e, a Krell KSA-200 S for 1750 e, a Krell FPB for 2000 e...
Or a Pass X250 for 2400 e.... Other suggestions are very welcomen these or just the ones that I found on sale some place now... I have never heard any of these amps...
I have a tight budget and live in Belgium.
My cd is Accuphase 500, preamp is solid state, no tone controls magnum Mp330.
I am looking for a 3d soundstage with lots of depth and emotional music playing. I therefore think of class A amps.
Hence... older krells? Tube amps would be a bad match as the speakers each have two 12 inch woofers. They are 4Ohms, with an impedance dip to 3 ohms in 100-200 Hz region. they are 93 dB/1W sensitivity though...
I could spend about 2000 euro but would prefer around 1000-1500 so I have budget for an accuphase preamp for phono (a c-280 or so). Would appreciate your input guys!
At the moment I localised a krell KSA-100 MKii for 850 e, a Krell KSA-200 S for 1750 e, a Krell FPB for 2000 e...
Or a Pass X250 for 2400 e.... Other suggestions are very welcomen these or just the ones that I found on sale some place now... I have never heard any of these amps...
37 responses Add your response
You are correct that the Brystons don't weigh as much as some amps. But, they are among the most powerful I have ever used and this includes sound staging and imaging. My former amps, the Pass Lab x-600's, weighed much more but were not near as strong as the Brystons on these speakers. But if you want to find this out yourself, go ahead. I've enjoyed these speakers for over 12 years, and with this combo, I expect many more years of great listening. Good luck! |
I would also look at the Musical Fidelity big integrated amps, NuVista, TriVista, 500 and 550. My NuVista drove my friends Wilson Sasha speakers very well so should have no trouble with the B&Ws. I was a dealer for B&W and Krell in the old days, I think the MF are a big step up from the Krells you mention. If you find you like your present pre better you can use the amp section by itself, there is an internal RCA jumper; I found the preamp section to be very good myself. The MFs are very powerful at low impedance's and have an excellent sound, there are many reviews on the net. |
I owned these wonderful speakers for many years. You are on the right track getting a high current amp but if you can afford it, get an active electronic crossover (I used a Marchand) and a tube amp so you can bi-amp with the tubes on the mid/tweeters and the high current amp on the woofers (you have to disable the woofer crossovers-it's easy). It makes a huge difference. I'm sorry I ever got rid of these speakers-they're amazing! |
4bucc, can u describe the exact amps you used in the active system? my former system was active (altec 512 triamped towers) and the bass was indeed very good, better then my 800's... lower and tighter... Stanwall, wich improvements do you think the musical fidelitys have over the krells? What was the best krell in combo with the b&w's 800? Bikerduud, could u describe your system (preamp,cd?) Rwwrear, my preamp is not balanced, will a fpb be an improvement over the older krells, opinions seem to be different on this? |
Since you asked, my Matrix 800's are driven by a system which includes a matching Bryston BP-26 preamp. My main source is a Linn LP12, heavily modified. I also have a Bryston BCD-1 disc player. My cabling is all MIT, with Oracle V2.1 biwire, which these speakers love. I also use a Shunyata power conditioner. I used to sell B&W speakers and have owned many of them over the years. Unlike the Matrix 801's, the 800's are much more efficient and require a different amp to sound it's best. The 801's definitely need a high current amp to sound their best. However, the 800's are a totally different speaker. I believe that the 800's sound their best with a higher voltage amplifier like the Brystons, than the higher-current amplifiers like the Pass. In past experiences, my speakers have been hooked up to Threshold, Levinson, and Pass electronics which all are high-current and Class A designs. If you have your heart set on Krell, I would guess the FPB series would sound excellent on these speakers. |
As I said it was some time ago so I would have been using the KSA 100s on 801s. I would go with the FPB among those listed. I simply like the mid and highs better on the MF and the bass is comparable to the Krell to me. The top Krells are better but VERY expensive. The MFs have been in Stereophiles Class A among integrated amps and at this level I don't find much difference between them and separates. The MFs came in two units and weigh 110 Lb so they are not lacking in power. When I took mine over to my friends with the Wilson's he thought that they sounded better than the Sashas he had heard at dealers driven by some very expensive amps. He bought Lamm separates in the end to get a better sound than the MF. |
If you want an amplifier that will drive anything connected to it with tremendous power and utterly transparent sound, give me a call in the US at (423) 842-1085. I am on Eastern Daylight Time which I believe is 6 hours behind your Central European Time. I am not a dealer, just a music lover and audiophile. |
My Krell KSA250 amps were recently serviced by Krell in the last year. The amps never hummmmed or hissssed but I did notice one amp was much hotter than the other. So I had sent both amps to Krell to check. It was time to replace caps and since the amps were sent back to me everything is perfect. Sound with only one KSA250 on my B&W 800 speakers was good but not quite delivering the soundstage and presentation. Now that I biamp superb improvements with soundstage and better definition. Also recently upgraded power cables on the Krell amps which put them into 5th gear and worth the imvestment. Hope this helps you out. I am chilling listening to some Bach with my awesome reference stereo system. |
Capacitors seem to be a big problem for both krell and levinson? Is it ok to buy a second hand amp of these brands,that has not been serviced in the recent 10-15 years anyway? I assume replacing these big capacitors costs a lot... and sending them back to Krell are Levinson is not an option for me as I live way over here in Belgium... Still no remarks on how levinson amps would play with these speakers... Anyone? |
So... after missing out an ebay auction for musical fidelity nuvista and an auction for a Krell KSA-100, I got a good price on a Krell FPB200! Installed yesterday... After warm up the 3D soundstaging and details are all there, thats the good news! Less good news is that harmonically voices could use a bit more body, and highs could be sweeter. This was the case with an old Kustom PA amp I used, (more voltage amp then current amp), although I am wondering if the preamp is responsible for the highs... I have had the same highs on my active system I used before... Any suggestions? stick with the new amp, and try another pre or just keep looking for another amp... |
I just asked about the ideal preamp for this amp in another thread, so we can stick in this thread to the amp suggestions... (For the record, I must say that these speakers sound far better now that I am sitting further away... distance increased from 5 meters to about 8,5 meters, already with the old amp) Looking forward to your responses guys! : ) |
My system was: Bat VK-51SE preamp, Pass crossover, McIntosh MC2000 for the mid/tweeter, Krell FPB 700cx for the bass and, of course, the B&W Matrix 800's. I have since changed almost everything to Pipedream 18 speakers, Tact 2.2XP preamp (with crossover), VTL S-400 amp for mid/tweeter, Krell FPB 700cx for bass. We never seem satisfied but it's fun. |
Impressive system 4bucc. I am guessing your budget is just slightly bigger then mine :) At the moment the Krel FPB 200 seems a less ideal match for my matrix 800's. Allthough the imaging is more precise then with the old Kustom Bias XII amp I use, I prefer the latter because it just sounds sweeter and more natural... Isn't that crazy? I wish I could unite both amps strengths... It would be great to try out some stuff before having to buy it. I will launch another thread and try to find people in belgium who would be willing to compare stuff on my or their system... Meanwhile, advise on any good combinations for these speakers are welcome! Thx to all for the advise so far! If only I could try or hear the suggestions someplace (bryston, mf nuvista,...) |
blueskywalker Ideal amp for B&W matrix 800 Between 55hz to 250hz (most of the bass) they have a load (impedance plus - phase angle) that demands current from an amp to get the best out of them. Amps that can almost double their 8ohm wattage to 4ohm and again to 2ohms. https://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/88B800fig1.jpg But because they are 94db efficient they don’t need a lot of watts an amp of 100watts into 8ohms will do, even the very old 25watt at 8ohm Mark Levinson ML2 monoblocks will sound great to a certain level because they can keep doubling wattage down to to 1ohm!!! https://img.ukaudiomart.com/uploads/large/2229206-mark-levinson-ml2.jpg Amps today that will be nice would be the Gryphon Diablo Integrateds 120 or the 300, they can do the doubling act. Also the D’Agostino’s , Parasound John Curl Halo’s, Krell’s these are all bi-polar output that can do big current down to 2ohms. https://gryphon-audio.dk/shop/integrated-amplifiers/diablo-120/ https://gryphon-audio.dk/shop/integrated-amplifiers/gryphon-diablo-300-integrated-amplifier/ Cheers George |
they do not have 2 ohm specs though... would they be less then optimal?Hard to say blueskywalker usually if there’s no 2ohm wattage spec, by manufacturer or by testing it means it better not to divulge it. They are linear amps that’s in their favor. They have smp power supplies which "can" be good, most are not. We don’t know if they use bi-polar or mosfet outputs transistors, there’s enough of them 16 per channel would be in your favor if they were bi-polar. Really the only way to tell if they are as optimal as the ones I mentioned above, would be to a/b them and pay particular attention to the bass area between 55hz to 250hz (most of the low/mid bass) Cheers George |
@georgehifi I also have Kef Blades (the big ones, not the two) and I still have not decided which speaker will stay, are these a better match for the Rowlands? I did notice that with stock powercords the Rowlands are not good in the bass on the 800s, but I discovered thats its crazy to use 10 euro cords on 35K amplifiers, and also that amps with switching power supplies are more in need of good power cords then normal amps... I do like the sound of Sanken transistors generally, are these bipolar devices? I heard these amps on a hifi show perform magic on Marten Design Tenor 3 speakers, with all Jorma Reference cabling... |
@georgehifi just found a review of the stereo version of my amps, the Rowland 625. measured output was 329 watt in 8 ohm and 590 watt in 4 ohm, (which apparently made the 6.3 amp fuse blow after few secs); dynamic power was 333w in 8 ohm, 623w in 4 ohm, 1060w in 2 ohm and 155w in 1ohm. The reviewer loved it, as it combined the charm and tranquility of a class a SET tube design with the tight control and grunt of a muscular class A/B amp. And thats for the stereo version... So for my 725 monos, I guess the answer truely lies in good powercords here. Have been testing some and so far really like Audioquest Storm series. I started a thread on that a while ago. |
Blueskywalker, I had the identical experience when I tried a Krell 200FPB. I used the Krell with Thiel CS6's and the upper frequencies were bright. In came a tubed pre-amp. It helped a bit but in the long run it sent me looking for more tubes. All that happened in the early part to this century. Currently I have B&W 801 S3's being driven by VTL450MKII amps. |
vegasears Your 801’s are a totally different impedance and - phase angle to the OP’s Matrix 800’s, his are far more difficult to drive, compare the graphs below 300hz, actually everywhere. https://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/bwll801fig01.jpg Cheers George |
@vegasears I have tried vtl preamps in my system and found them truly great products! I never had a tube poweramp though, as I do not like the idea of having to replace possibly costly tubes each 5000 hours or so. @georgehifi no worries on the different planet thing regarding powercords. 10 years ago I did not have one brand or expensive cable in my system... and I enjoyed my music as well. Along the way I got to try some cables through friends or sometimes they came in a package deal when I bought a device. I kept what I heard made a difference. i have to say that results are cumulative though, so changing just one cable in a whole system, is like putting a reference preamp in a mediocre system... it’s not allowed to shine and you can’t really hear why it is supposedly a good cable or reference preamp... I was able to try a whole range of cords, and then, yep... then I understood why certain cables were good... The cumulative result goes at least as far as changing to a better source, it’s crazy |
