I have recently decided to begin upgrading to stereo components around the entry level audiophile range, and move away from home theater stuff. I need help, as I had no idea until I began recently researching modern amps, preamps, integrateds, etc, just how huge the selection there is available.
Currently, I have the following:
Harman Kardon AVR 235 A/V receiver Front L&R channels: 50 Watts per channel @ <0.07% THD, 20Hz–20kHz into 8 ohms
Harman Kardon FL 8385 CD Changer
Klipsch KG 5.5 Floorstanding Speakers frequency response 34Hz-20kHz±3dB power handling 100 watts maximum continuous (500 watts peak) sensitivity 98dB @ 1watt/1meter nominal impedance 8 ohms tweeter K-85-K 1" (2.54cm) Polymer dome compression driver high frequency horn 90°x60° Tractrix® Horn woofer Two K-1023-K 10" (25.4cm) Injected Carbon Graphite cones Bass reflex via front-mounted port
Grado Labs SR325 Headphones
I use the receiver strictly for stereo music playback with my HK CD changer, or I play .flac or .mp3 files via input to the receiver from my computer sound cards optical digital output.
I want to keep my Klipsch speakers for now, along with my Grado cans, which I love. OTOH, I have not been particularly happy with the two HK components. Although the sound is not totally bad, it is a tad too bright, and it is fatiguing to listen over long periods of time. My room acoustics are not ideal either, with hardwood floors and drywall throughout. The listening rooms dimensions are 14'x13', with speaker placement along and near the corners of the 13' wall. At present, I cannot afford any of the acoustic treatments I see on the various internet sites.
From what I have seen so far, I think I would favor the warm, rich, clear sound of tube components. My Klipsch speakers are highly efficient at 8 ohms, so I should not need higher power, but I don't want to lose bass response either. I have not had much experience listening to higher end audio, but I really loved the sound of a friends McIntosh receiver (late 70's vintage), and another friends 60's vintage tubed HH Scott receiver, both systems paired with matching speaker pairs of the same brands respectively. Those experiences are why I believe I should really consider tube amps.
Would someone please be so kind as to suggest components that would allow me to play CD, CD-R, and digital music files based upon what I stated above? I suppose I could do without the ability to directly play back the digital files, but a CD player is a must have. Oh yeah, my budget is up to $3000, but I want to get as much as I can for the best possible price under that ceiling. Thanks.
Welcome Chap_cat. So your $3000 assumes no change to the speakers right now? One very good thing about those speakers is that they're VERY efficient and you really don't need a lot of power to drive them.
I'd focus on getting a high quality CD/SACD player first, then like a 100 watt integrated amp (you may not need that much power now, but I suspect that you'll upgrade your speakers in the not-too-distant future). Finally, you need to consider upgrading your interconnects and speaker cables. (You didn't tell us what you use).
The CDP and cables have a big impact on listener fatigue. Also, adding a nice big rug and some stuffed furniture will help the room a lot. You may need further treatment after you take some remedial steps. Speaker placement is also huge. (See my review of the Sumiko Speaker Set}.
Look at the A'gon members' Virtual Systems, focusing on simple, but elegant systems.
Ideally you'd find your speakers first and then select a compatable amp next. If you'd "like to keep" your Klipsch forever, then don't worry about this, but if you're thinkin that you might make a move in the relatively new term, then you might think of delaying the amp decision until then.
You start with your sources, connections and room to get rid of listener fatigue, then move to the speakers and amp(s).
Some here will try to sucker you into a fight about tubes vs. SS vs. Class D vs. Class A vs. etc., etc. Don't worry about ANY of that crap and just listen when making your decisions. Any of those technologies will work in most applications when well implemented.
I love the way the Shanlings look, and I like the bang for the buck that appear to be had with the Jolidas. I am also intrigued by the tube/ss hybrid amps I have seen on the internet.
As far as interconnects and speaker cables go, I presently use Monster Cable with gold plug in style clips, but not necessarily the higher end stuff.
I am planning to keep my speakers for the foreseeable future, since the $3000 outlay now will dry up my hobby budget for at least two or three years minumum, if not longer. Therefore, I really need to find an amp+pre-amp, or integrated amp plus a cd player that will match well with my Klipsch speakers. I do like these speakers, and when paired with better quality components and better acoustics, they should be just fine. I will also add better cabling.
Are there any opinions on the above brands and how they might meet my needs? Thanks.
I don't see anything that makes me wretch, so I'll say to let your ears be your guide. Unfortunately you'll be hearing all of these in an unfamiliar system. It's really hard to evaluate CDPs outside of your own system. Amps driving anything other than your own speakers will be misleading.
So, what do you do? Evaluate the dealers and see which ones you trust the most after you meet them. Before you go down, review all you can about the amps and CDP. When you get there focus on apparent build quality and pricing. If someone gives you crap about you existing system, then leave.
Since you have great headphones that you love, consider a Melos SHA-1. It was originally created to function as a world class headphone amp and wound up becoming a Stereophile Class A preamp as well. There's one for sale right now for $450. The OPPO 980H universal player sells brand new for $169.95 and Amazon will sell it to you with free shipping. This unit defies all assumptions about price/performance ratios. I'm using one as my primary digital in a very high performance system. It will meet and exceed your needs. That leaves power amplifier and I'm really inclined to recommend something very sexy and solid state like a Rowland Model One or an Ayre V-3. Both would be excellent and you should be able to buy either for about $1100. Spend a bit more on conservatively priced interconnects and cables and you will be shocked at how much better your Klipsch now sound.
But ---- you probably have enough money left over to look into a speaker upgrade. Vandersteen would be nice.
The Pathos Classic One Mark III isn't on your list but they show up here every so ofter in the $1650-1900 area, good solid tube integrated. That should leave you enough to get a good CDP. Check out the views in the archives here. Just a thought.
Hey dc step let us know how you like your new parker!!Your right on the money,everyones offering there knowledge and experience.Ive owned both tube and ss,The band wagon only gos so many miles.Making decisions early in your budget range are so many.Try on informitve buying then move up.Klipsch are horned?tube integrated with (CAYIN,PATHOs)Creek,sim amp(ss) As well as cd player.Keep us informed of your progression!
If you go tubes look at a good used Primaluna PL 1or 2. Great bang for the buck (around $900 used) easy to use very nice sounding and you can vary the tubes easily.
Dcstep said: "adding a nice big rug and some stuffed furniture will help the room a lot."
Right after reading this piece of advice, I went down to the local WallyWorld and bought a 5'x 8' heavy rug and placed it centered between the two speakers and a couple feet out. Now I hear tighter bass and clearer mids with less bright highs, and my room looks a little better too. Although it sounds better, I am totally psyched about getting some new audio gear.
Has anybody had any experience with the hybrid amps like the Jolida JD 1501RC. What about this amp matched with the Jolida JD 100A Tube Compact Disc Player. At just under $1000 for the CD player, and the amp at $825, the price sounds good.
Can you bring your speakers to the dealer? If you are going to buy they might set them up for you...it won't be your room but it would be a good start.
Can you bring your speakers to the dealer? If you are going to buy they might set them up for you...it won't be your room but it would be a good start.
Two of the dealers require appointments, so when I call, I will ask about this. Good idea.
06-15-08: Digsmithd said: "Hey dc step let us know how you like your new parker!!"
I love the pictures and the CD I've been sent (much more than's on the site), BUT I won't take delivery until late this year or early in '09. It's being used in some recordings and Ken's going to install a Fishmann Aura pickup system. With luck, I'll fly to New York and go with Ken to Fishman's for the installation and tracking recordings to optimize the Aura. I've got my fingers crossed that Frisell will use it in a recording also.
It'll be a busy guitar until it comes home to retire at my abode.
Personally, I like the idea of going front to back, myself. Source, preamp, amp, speakers... either way however leads to a positive end, eventually.
Interjecting a new source, int. or pre & amp is going to be quite a shift in performance! Adding on the necessary cabling after that will also be quite an addition.
I think you are right in looking at just a source/CDP & an integrated amp... for now. Having a source which provides all of the info the signal has right off is way important! That's what the rest of the ritg is going to be working with afterall.
The deal between tubes and SS is simple.... SS is no better or worse than would be hollow state subjectively speaking. Tubes, do offer more options for the ears, via some tube rolling. So that has to be a consideration if you enjoy tweaking or just making simple changes to the sound systems signature from time to time.
The main thing is toting along your speakers if at all possible... or arranging an in home trial. That part comes only after you are certain you wish to deal with ... whomever you pick of the dealers you meet.
I don't see any of your listed possibilities as bad ones either. I would say though if you are in no rush or that $3K isn't burning a hole in your pocket to go slower. A CDP seems in order though and Rega makes some good ones with good reviews. I'd get as good as I could there for now be it Rega or otherwise.
In fact all of your short list is well represented in the 'preowned' mkt as well and that would allow you to get better return on your available funds/budget... unless you gotta have brandy spankity new, used components sure helps one escalate the preformance level of one's rig.
In conjunction with a resolving source, ASL, Prima Luna, and with a bit of tube rolling, a Jolita int could do just what you are looking for... and if preowned, both power cords and cabling additions will be avaialable too.... and the wires are sure important. They are the icing so to speak, on the cake.
Tote your speakers, ask questions about warranty & other policies, look at the cabling being used too. Listening to $2K to $3K components connected with $2K worth of wires is something I'd like to know up front... also see if they're using a power conditioner during the audition. I've overlooked that last bit in the past myself... and it's a very common practice to use them during presentations.
So are aftermarket footers, iso cups, and these too make an impact on the sound.. so do open your eyes when auditioning so you know what's what. I'm sure you're astute enough here, but I've been overly zealous in the past myself when being on the verge of a whole new rig!
Again.. I would just go listen... look... ask... and get a nice CDP first.
Come back in a few weeks with it and plug it into the power train you like most and go from there... You've two known quanities then, speakers and source.
Good luck, take care, and just listen to the music that gets your attention.
Feeling overwhelmed is going to cost you money. It will cause you to run straight into the arms of a waiting dealer. An audio dealer is just like a card dealer. His job is to take advantage of the difference between what he knows and what you know. The benefit available to you on Audiogon is the option of bypassing the dealer and being self taught with guidance from us. The problem that you will encounter with us is determining who has good advice and who is merely recommending what they like. I recommended an OPPO 980H DVD player for a digital source. I've owned high dollar and well reviewed digital equipment in the past and bought this thing because it was suggested by a guy who sold me some excellent tubed monoblocks. I didn't really believe what he was telling me about how musical it is but I took the plunge anyway figuring I could use a video player and these were known to be good for that. Result of this purchase is the sale of my DAC. The OPPO is phenomenal. As I stated above, it will cost you only $170 and it will resell in 5 minutes for $140 if you find it disappointing. If it proves to be what I'm saying it is, then you have a lot more money free for other upgrades. I recommended the Melos SHA-1 because your headphones are important to you and I suggested the Ayre or Rowland amp because both are very musical and depreciation proof. You'll get your tube sound from the SHA and you'll get fuss-free performance out of either power amp. Furthermore, you will be spending only slightly more than half your money. That means you can consider upgrading the speakers. If you want newer stuff, consider an Eastern Electric CD player. It has tubes, a headphone jack and a volume control. If CD is going to be your only source, you won't need a preamp at all. Just go straight from your player to your amp(s).
If you can , copy somebody's rig . It is an easy foolproof way to start , if they value the same things in sound that you do ! A few emails back and forth will tell . This is how I started after making some exspensive mistakes !
If you don't , then listen to as many different things as you can . Don't be afraid to take notes , literally . Ask as many questions as you can and take note of 'all' of the equipment being listened to . There is a certain synergy or compatability between different pieces and manufacterers equipment . In other words , just because something sounds great at the dealers does not mean it will sound the same at your home .
I would consentrate on amplification and source with your 3k . An integrated amp will be cheaper in the beginning . You will have one less power cord , one less set of interconnects and one less chassis . And you won't have to worry how the preamp will work with your amp , that synergy thing again . If tubes , I would suggest that you find one that is self/auto biasing . This will be easier to use with less maintaince . Be aware that some biasing procedures can be quite involved and somewhat dangerous for a novice .
I would try to spend the majority of your money on the source . Don't try to get fancy here . Look for something that has a good reliability record . CDP's can be finicky and a real PITA !
"Do not" spend a bunch of money on cables now !!!
"Do" buy used , if you can . When you want to sell , you will not loose nearly as much as if you had bought new . If done right , you can move in and out of equipment for no more than the cost of shipping charges .
You say that you want tubes . I would then recommend a Primaluna Prologue2 integrated amp . It is self/auto biasing , can use a bunch of different kinds of tubes to change the sound to different types , has 4 inputs and can be had used for less than 1k . It is a nice piece that will allow you to experiment to find out what you like in the tube world .
For a CDP you may want to look at Cary . They made a piece that had both a tubed output and a SS output . This would allow you to test the waters on tubes in this area as well . I think that you would be able to pick one up used for the remainder of your budget .
" Tubes, do offer more options for the ears, via some tube rolling. So that has to be a consideration if you enjoy tweaking or just making simple changes to the sound systems signature from time to time"
I don't see that variable sound and the opportunity to tube-roll is an advantage; however, I understand that many think this is "fun" and a meaningful hobbiest activity. I personally prefer to buy a designer's best possible work and enjoy it, rather than risk screwing it up with some half-baked scheme to "improve it" with some 60 year old tubes.
You should checkout the ps audio trio c-100 control amp and the oppo dv-983h universal player. This will run you a total of 1500 new with warranty and the value is off the charts! That will leave 1500 for whatever you choose next.
Wanna try something completely different that may save you about $2800? Check out the Nuforce Icon Integrated Amp/DAC.
The Nuforce Icon is a 12 watt/channel integrated amp based on Nuforce's digital amp technology. It contains a passive pre-amp, 12 watt/ch. amplifier, USC DAC and headphone amp. It also has RCA inputs for connecting additional sources such as your CD changer.
The Nuforce Icon is currently available direct from Nuforce via Amazon.com. It has an introductory price of $199 for the silver finish and $249 for other colors.
Considering your speakers are very efficient, the 12 watts/channel should be plenty for most people. Additionally, since the Icon has a built-in USB DAC, you can connect your PC/MAC source directly to the Icon via a UBS cable. You could also connect your current CD changer via the additional RCA inputs and connect your headphones to the headphone output. This is a tiny do-everything machine that might be all you ever need. It could be an excellent choice if you plan to rip all of your CDs to your PC/MAC in lossless format. Heck, you could get rid of everything except your PC/MAC and the Icon and have an extremely compact system that may sound good enough to satisfy you for years to come.
BTW, the Icon uses an RJ45 jack for speaker cables and the cables are supplied. However the supplied cables are only one meter long. If you need longer cables, a 2 meter pair is available from Nuforce for $30.
I'm buying one just to play with it. If it is as good as the reviews say, I may end up using it for a few years as my primary 2-channel system connected to a pair of hi-efficiency speakers and PC.
Tube integrateds that come to mind within your budget (used) are the Manley Stingray and I have a friend that I believe is selling an Audio Note Soro in the near future.
I own a pair of KG 5.5. I have used many different components along the way to get the best sound from them. Proceed, Classe, NAD, and Arcam to name a few. Surprisingly the most enjoyable sound by far is with a Linn Classik CD/Integrated amp. I think the amp is rated 30W or so at 8 ohms.
Macrojack said: Feeling overwhelmed is going to cost you money. It will cause you to run straight into the arms of a waiting dealer. An audio dealer is just like a card dealer. His job is to take advantage of the difference between what he knows and what you know. The benefit available to you on Audiogon is the option of bypassing the dealer and being self taught with guidance from us. The problem that you will encounter with us is determining who has good advice and who is merely recommending what they like.
This is the reason I am here on this forum. Most people here have nothing to gain other than some satisfaction that they feel by helping out a fellow hobbyist. I have some cynicism about merchants in general, and I work in retail as well. I very much appreciate each and every one of you that has responded for your advice. I intend to research all components that have been listed if possible, and I will listen to all that I can when I go to the big city to audition equipment day after tomorrow. My gut feeling is that most any component with a price tag of over $1000 should be an improvement in sound over what I have now. Also, going used is certainly not out of the question.
I think you need to be careful of dealers, but I think you'll find that there are some great ones out there. IF, that's a big "if", you find a good one they can save you lots of searching and speed you toward your goals.
It's a cold fact that somebody is going to take a depreciation hit on most new equipment purchases and you can bet the queen's keyster it will be the original purchaser. This is reason enough to avoid buying new equipment at retail. If you can get a sufficient discount on new gear, that might make it worthwhile. Or, if you can get into something at a very low original purchase amount, say $170, then you stand to lose little but you still lose something. In the case of well researched used purchases, loss can be kept at or near zero. Bear in mind that resale prices are directed by street price rather than list price. If an item is readily available at thirty per cent discounts then you can look for the resale value to be correspondingly reduced. One of the best examples I know of is the famous Talon Khorus.
Since you have a somewhat limited budget and no prospects of increasing it in the next couple of years, I would expect you to be very cautious about missteps. And with new, dealer sourced gear, you will lose money even if you love the stuff, although the loss might be delayed by years. There are members here who are dealers, members who worship their dealer and members who avoid dealers. They all have advice for you.
You don't lose money with dealer source gear, IF you love it. Something that you're not going to sell is worth what it's worth. Resale is irrelevant with keepers.
That said, experienced audiophiles should feel pretty comfortable with used stuff here on A'gon. I'm reluctant to send a newbie to the used market. There are a few wolves here on A'gon.
There are wolves in storefronts too. And the notion that you're going to keep gear still prevails in me even though I've disproved that belief hundreds of times. There's always something new or different. You can bet that Chap_cat is replacing "keepers" right now.
Still, a newbie without audiophile friends is going to have a hard time going it on their own. I say check out the dealers first, he could be pleasantly surprised.
Oops, time to go, I need to go pick up cables at my dealer and take the loaner back. ;-)
I'd add the new Bel Canto digital int with USB DAC to the short list only as an option to the Nu Force entry. I've not heard either BTW... just thought to mention it.
Also Macrojack is offering up solid advice here on that Oppo player. I bought one just as he did, for a video BTW, stop gap, source. I was and still am, amazed at how much improvement has happend in digital gear... and for the $175 tag? It's a no brainer indeed.
it's in my estimation, 75-80% the performance level of my $3K (MSRP) SONY XA777es CDP.
His other points I'd feel are as valid.
Being in sales, I'm pretty sure if your guard is up some, not a lot, you'll feret out the legit from the self serving.
Dcstep said:
“I don't see that variable sound and the opportunity to tube-roll is an advantage.”
I’m pretty sure if additional flexibility is to be had, it must be seen as advantageous. EX. More imputs, both RCA + XLR in’s & outs, remote control, all these features and/or benefits are additive aspects. The ability to interchange tubes, if one wishes to do so, is also an additional feature set, and thus, an advantage.
Dcstep also said:
I personally prefer to buy a designer's best possible work and enjoy it, rather than risk screwing it up with some half-baked scheme to "improve it" with some 60 year old tubes.
Half baked? Screwing it up?
In this instance, the “best” available design isn’t likely to be had for the budget in place. Designers do offer their work in various levels you know?
I suppose one can adhere strickly to a purist notion on all things and be quite happy. However to discount the possibility of improvement upon a given designers effort through aftermarket or optionally offered changes, is shortsighted indeed.
There are plenty of designers which offer upgrades to their equipment as standard operating procedure. BAT, Dodd, AR, Atmosphere, ART, Prima luna, and VAC, just to name a few afford a buyer their wares in varying performance and configuration levels…. And some of these upgrades involve only the change of the tubes being used.
These designers I believe also need to produce a design which can be supplied and supported by currently available parts, including the tubes they employ in their designs. I wonder how many of them, had they an endless supply of NOS tubes, wouldn’t use them in their builds or offer them as options at point of sale?
There is nothing half baked about tailoring or tweaking a system to the tastes of it’s owner/builder. My experience has shown swapping out the OEM tubes is one way to go about it and the results from the doing of it have always been improvement, in varying degrees, and occasionally, entirely.
After all, just how many of these 2008 offerings are 100% new, never been done before designs? They are just variations on much older themes…. Themes which at their time used what we call now, NOS tubes.
One alternative that has captured my interest is purchasing a Jolida JD501B tube int amp, or the Jolida JD1501RC hybrid int amp, plus perhaps a Music Hall CD25.2 CDP from Underwood with level one mods. Underwood claims that these components with the mods sound as good as components costing two to three times as much. Is there truth to these claims? If so, that would seem to me to be great bang for the buck.
I didn't want to say second hand what a component was like previously, but a friend of mine was quite happy with his Jolita CDP but only after some NOS tubes were installed. He now has a Muse CDP, though.
I'd like to know if your plans for getting into better audio gear are the beginings of a possibly lengthy system building event, or a one and done upgrade.
Other's and myself have alluded to the acquisition of an integrated amp as a erstwhile and promising step up from your now system. In fact every noted approach here is a 'better than' option than what you presently have on hand, and are close to your desired sonics goal.
If this is the begining of some lengthy endeavor, or a one and done affair, or your choice is to go with hollow state power, some research on your part is necessary. Some honest soul searching too will help.
If it's the former, start at one end and go to the other. If it's the latter, tote your transducers along and pick out what pleases you and them! With your budget in mind, naturally. To heck with anyone else's thoughts.
My last note on who's helping who, here is simple, if a person has absolutely nothing to gain by sharing their time and experiences with you, and they aren't telling you of someone they know who has the so called 'right thing' for sale just now, it's most likely their statements are altruistic on the whole.
The 'wolves' Dave mentioned are those who have another agenda on hand when they are espousing their own recommendations. Some even go so far as to contact posters off thread and offer so called super deals! I'm quite leary of this approach as it is then tainted, regardless how well meaning a person might have been at the onset. IMO.
Threads are for gathering info, thoughts, ideas, and resolutions other's have accomplished during similar trials. It’s not a 'want ad', per se.
RE Underwood claims …or anyone else’s calims for that matter as was already pointed out, are merely claims. Subjective notes to promote sales. I’ll not go so far as to say these claims aren’t valid whatsoever. The truth of the matter however is determined by yourself. Their validity is aided by their reputation. I’ve met and talked to a bunch of folks who are very, very, happy with modified units done by these aftermarket resources.
…. And I don’t begrudge them making money from it. It does seem to affect the value of the piece though. Sometimes for good. Sometimes for ill…. And I am considering having one of my pieces modded later on… maybe.
Ever how ya wind up doing this, it seems to me that without a fine source component providing a good signal up front, one won't be able to make up for lack of it later on in the chain downstream.... unless the thought is to replace this new/now CDP later on. if that's the case, the OPpo 980H is a slam dunk, multi format player that yields great results in audio and can stick around as just a video player when the itch to move up strikes again. it can even be run as a preamp! Cutting costs even more so, initially anyways.
Again... I'd go slow… but that’s just me. I hate to waste money as I haven’t got much to begin with.
'I don't see that variable sound and the opportunity to tube-roll is an advantage.'
...The ability to interchange tubes, if one wishes to do so, is also an additional feature set, and thus, an advantage."
No, more choices (in tubes) is NOT an automatic advantage. For those that like to take chances and play around with tube rolling, yes it is, but for the other half of us we'd rather buy a well thought out design that represents the designer's best efforts and run with it.
"There is nothing half baked about tailoring or tweaking a system to the tastes of it’s owner/builder. My experience has shown swapping out the OEM tubes is one way to go about it and the results from the doing of it have always been improvement, in varying degrees, and occasionally, entirely."
I'm assuming that you're a hobbiest. If so, then anything that you do will be half baked vs. a designer that's spent his whole career designing the best circuits that he knows how to make.
Once again I'll say, some people like to play around and experiment with tubes to see if they prefer different tubes over what the designer chose. I think that's fine for those people that enjoy that, but I'm in the very substantial camp that would rather pay a designer to do his best work and buy accordingly.
I'm not dissing your choice, I'm merely saying that one is no more valid than the other.
"unless the thought is to replace this new/now CDP later on. if that's the case, the OPpo 980H is a slam dunk, multi format player that yields great results in audio and can stick around as just a video player when the itch to move up strikes again. it can even be run as a preamp! Cutting costs even more so, initially anyways"
BTW, I'm not picking on you buddy, you're just deep in this thread. ;-)
I own an Oppo 981HD, two in fact, and they are incredible values for the money, but they're not up to the standard of even the Pioneer DV-58AV which is less than double the price. If you have Ric Schultz mod the Pioneer to his top level, then it's all-in about $1500 and you have a universal that competes with most players under 5-grand, IMHO. Also, he's doing a 32-bit mod which really moves the Oppo up the food chain.
It's funny, if you spend $200 on the Oppo and $400 on an Analysis Plus IC, then you DO in fact have a very nice front end, but the Pioneer is an order of excellence better.
Blindjim said: I'd like to know if your plans for getting into better audio gear are the beginings of a possibly lengthy system building event, or a one and done upgrade.
Right now, what I have to play back in my collection are CD's and digital files. My wife got my substantial vinyl collection in my recent divorce, so I don't have to worry about a turntable anymore, and I no longer own anything on any tape format (she got all that too). In the future, I intend to purchase CD's and SACD's to add to my collection. I listen to various styles and genres of rock music, jazz, new age, world and some classical.
That said, my immediate goal is to upgrade my amplifier and my CDP. My long term goal is to upgrade my speakers, but I am quite satisfied with my Klipsch KG-5.5 for now. As stated earlier, I believe most any entry level audiophile components should sound considerably superior to what I have now, whether SS or HS, with my current speakers. However, I think it would be wise to purchase an amplifier that could handle tougher to drive speakers as insurance to help meet that long term goal. At my budget level, in the foreseeable future I doubt I will be able to acquire any components in the mid to high end audiophile range, so components of $2000 or less are my target. I am thinking about bumping my current budget for the two new components up to $3500, but that figure must include cables/interconnects, and a new stand. I don't want to go first class on the cabling right now, and I have picked out a nice Bush tower for $358 to diplay my new system.
Tomorrow, I have an appointment at Galen Carol Audio in San Antonio. This dealer carries a wide variety of audiophile gear. I should be able to audition amps and CDP's by Jolida, Shanling, Cayin, Antique Sound Lab, Creek, SimAudio among others. Here is a link to his line list:
http://www.gcaudio.com/products/lineList.html
Unfortunately, the amp that I have been most curious about is the Jolida JD1501RC, and it is not in stock, but he has one coming within the next two weeks. When I spoke with Mr Carol yesterday, he said I could audition the amp at home. I may wait till then to purchase, because the hybrid just seems to be fit the best of both worlds.
I am not a tinkerer, so tube rolling or other modding is not something I am all fired up about. If I could find a SS int amp with pleasing sound, I actually would prefer going that route. It is just that the hollow state amps I have heard in the past were so pleasing to my ear. Tomorrow's listening should go a long way in helping me decide which way to go.
Chap_cat, sorry for posting so late but after reading most of the posts and suggestions I would also agree with those that adviced to take your time, audition as many amps, preamps, cdp as possible. I do understand that some might have a problem finding and auditioning the recommendations from fellow members or reviews from the press but at least try, read some reviews for general guaidence. Finding local audiophile club is always a good idea. Usualy those guys are very passionate and helpful and don't mind to share their wisdom or point you in the right direction.
$3000 is a lot of money and I would hate to see you spend it in the rush and regret your choices later. LIsten to all but do what your hart and your ears tell you.
Many great products out there. Some are also giant killers that represent not only great value but are on par with or better the componets costing much, much more.
OMG, I hate stories where the wife gets the analog in a divorce. Does she at least listen to it or was that pure spite???
As much as I hated losing my vinyl and tapes and other stuff too, it was either that or she was going to go after my pickup truck. She hated almost all my music collection, and only wanted to have my vinyl to get what she could for it. All in all, I came out smelling like a rose. She got my old Harman Kardon HK-495i receiver, HK TD-262 cassete deck, old JVC turntable, and Sony CD changer. The receiver and the cd changer had problems she was not aware of, so I got to at least stick it back to her a little. :)
The unenlightened should never walk into a dealership IMO. Too many of the salespeople one encounters are little better than snake oil salesmen, and even if they seem to be helping you initially, they might be setting you up for a future hit. I know this is harsh and to those salesmen who are on the square - I'm sorry, but you, more than most, know it's true.
My advise would be to look into an Audio Society or club in your area. Find a local mentor, or even one here on Audiogon; you'll find some really generous people here. Read a lot of forums and you'll get a feel for the members. There are people on Agon who I've never met that I hold in very high regard; some of them can be a little terse at times but there good intentions will be revealed if your persistent. LOL. Good luck.
The guy's been through a divorce and has surely been around the block a time or two. I suspect that he can smell a bad dealer. Audio societies are also good, but you'll run into no-it-alls there and it can be hard to find any "real truth."
I suggest checking out all possible resouces and don't make a decision without sleeping on it.
The unenlightened should never walk into a dealership IMO. Too many of the salespeople one encounters are little better than snake oil salesmen, and even if they seem to be helping you initially, they might be setting you up for a future hit. I know this is harsh and to those salesmen who are on the square - I'm sorry, but you, more than most, know it's true.
My advise would be to look into an Audio Society or club in your area. Find a local mentor, or even one here on Audiogon; you'll find some really generous people here. Read a lot of forums and you'll get a feel for the members. There are people on Agon who I've never met that I hold in very high regard; some of them can be a little terse at times but there good intentions will be revealed if your persistent. LOL. Good luck.
I appreciate the advice, and it is why I am here. Since I posted the OP, in addition to receiving advice here and on other forums, I have subscribed to the Audiogon blue book, read seemingly countless posts and reviews, researched at least 30 manufacturers product lines, checked out the virtual systems, and read up on technical details, all to help me become more enlightened. Even so, I am not so naive to think that I have as many of the answers as I know I should have at this point. That is why I am always happy to receive you folks advice, even if it sometimes appears a little hard. On 6/18, I am spending most of the day in various San Antonio audio shops. I will trust my ears to tell me what I need to know more so than any salesperson. I am somewhat of a skeptic by nature.
I suggest checking out all possible resouces and don't make a decision without sleeping on it.
More good advice. I now have the $3500 ready budget, but I have no intentions of spending the money tomorrow. There is just too many choices to go off half cocked.
Chap cat, Dave, If my post came off as condescending or pedantic I apologize; that couldn't be further from my intention. I was trying to offer the benefit of my mixed experiences with dealers. Chap cat, I'm happy you're more on top of things than I once was and am looking forward to hearing about your successes.
Well, Dave ol’ buddy, it’s your choice of words mostly, and the notion user/owners don’t have the acumen to make positive changes to a certain topology which gets me.
I think what irks me here is how critical, undermining and simply misused, the term “half baked”, truly remains in your context…. As a pertinent definition for it is as follows….
“lacking mature judgment or experience; unrealistic.”
I neither lack experience, nor do I possess unsound judgement. I doubt those who do employ the use of tubes other than those offered by the makers find themselves at a loss there either. Perhaps we should ask them, huh? Or better still do it as you did here, just tell them they are all severely lacking mature judgment or experience; and they are unrealistic. Yep. That’ll go over quite well indeed.
Supplanting one tube for another, whose values are the same is not poor judgment. It is nothing more or less than using caps or resistors of varying labels, given their values are alike.
Going down that road a bit further, one should also say the OEM power cord shouldn't be changed, or one cable is as good as another... and why don't we just ask which speakers the desitgner used and buy them! the designer does know best. Right? How absurd.
Transistors, MOSFETS, chipsets, etc…. haven’t always been around? Designers even make changes there too! Well the cat's out of the bag now for sure.
I’m near certain that Dave has been granted the province of ‘speaker’ for the whole of the community too… or was it the overwhelming majority? It’s narrow minded to cast about suggestions such as the ones pertaining to changes of a designers efforts by end users as negative or unsubstantiated, and then follow them up by quoting some aftermarket modders (eg., Schultz)changes to the aforementioned designers effort, as vastly superior to the original product! Yed I’m sure I heard that somewhere … and recently too.
So which is it? Mod or not? It’s pretty obvious Dave hasn’t done much by way of tube rolling/experimenting.
Overwhelming majority my eye! If anything here is half baked, it’s that singularly offered sentiment Dave issued previously on tube rolling. It’s about as hard as changing out a light bulb… with about as many consequences. Not once when auditioning a tube component have I said to myself, “Well, I’ll just change out the tubes ‘cause this sucks!” if it doesn’t sound good to begin with, or what I’m after I just pass on it. In fact I don’t eye the prospect of swapping out fresh, brand new tubes at all. Eventually though, like light bulbs, tubes lose their initial luster and down the way, do go out. I could too become desirous of a change and not have the entry fee to buy a whole new component. Then and there is a great opportunity for investigating other avenues. others do in fact take out the OEM tubes immediately! Supplanting their own preffered tubes instead!
No matter how you shake it, tube gear offers additional advantages over solid state merely by their nature. Don’t confuse that with performance though. That’s a whole other realm.
Chap_cat If G. Carroll says you can preview a thing in your home, then that’s the ticket. I’d say he wants your business if so… and if there is no strings (restocking, depreciation, fees, etc.) aside from the norm… take advantage of it.
One last note on CDPs I’ll offer is the Cambridge 840c… One after market upgrader (modder) I spoke with of note, and directed me onto the Oppo, said this was a stunning CD player for the $$$... as he gave me those two for optional upgrades. BTW he wasn’t selling either one then.
It usually takes a good piece to make Robert Harley gush over it and he did with the 840c… the TAS reviews now online. Do read it.
I too thought well about the Jolita 1501 as a secondary unit some time ago. Did some looking around… asked some people I trusted but ultimately passed on it for a new HT system instead. In the doing however, I found others which for the price of a new jolita offered better build and Sonics... on paper. I’m sure it’s a solid choice though. I understand their support is good too.
This is the last thing I’ll add… call whomever you wish to buy’s product support team and see what’s up there before you lay out the long green. Nothing’s perfect, and things do happen. Knowing is far better than supposing with regard to support. That’s a biggie for me. Support. If G. Carrolls place will do whatever work is needed down the road for you, that’s all the better. IMO
this thing is all about what you like. Not necesarily what another likes. Tjhere's tons of paths to follow. Loads of gizmos to try out. numerous additive tweaks you can either make or buy.... and the bottom line always for me is like the optometrist says, "is this worse, the same, or is it better now?".. he'll never answer that one for you.
HAVE A GOOD TIME! Do let us know what you picked out too!
I'm assuming that you're a hobbiest. If so, then anything that you do will be half baked vs. a designer that's spent his whole career designing the best circuits that he knows how to make.
I say:
Jeff Rowland is still a hobbyist and nothing he does is half-baked. He's a designer who has obviously won your heart. But when I first met him he was a doing Hafler mods. Most of our "designers" were just guys who liked to experiment. Very few have a lengthy academic resume.
Dcstep says:
Once again I'll say, some people like to play around and experiment with tubes to see if they prefer different tubes over what the designer chose. I think that's fine for those people that enjoy that, but I'm in the very substantial camp that would rather pay a designer to do his best work and buy accordingly.
My response:
Many different tubes might be a realistic option in a given tube design. The manufacturer normally supplies tubes with his product. What he supplies may or may not be optimum. And it may or may not be the customer's preference. No designer, however, can or will supply all options. That's up to the owner. Additionally, NOS tubes, by definition, are found, not merely sourced like a currently available, currently produced item. There are specialists who deal in NOS tubes but they too must find them. They can't just email the factory and have a new batch sent over. Consequently, manufacturers don't generally have the tubes on hand to make all options available. Some, like VAC and Music Reference, have stock available but they too may have gaps while they strive to locate the next pool.
When you buy a new car it has tires on it. They are the ones that were chosen by the designer. Are they the only tires you will ever use? Or will you try some half-baked option from Michelin or Pirelli or Bridgestone instead of the factory supplied, designer specified originals?
My guess is that, once you graduate from the Rod Tompson School, and get into tube world yourself, you will be among it's loudest proponents. Until that happens, you should stick to what you know.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
