I Feel Overwhelmed....Please Help
Re not affording room treatments: you might want to consider some of the cheaper foam squares that are available - e.g. Sonex and other squares that are easy to place on a wall. Just adding this kind of thing at the first reflection points on your side walls can help with brightness and listener fatigue too. What I'm saying is that you might not need to invest much to get a significant improvement in that area. I think Sonex is the answer for me at this point. Thanks for the input. |
Congratulations on your purchases. That should all be a good match for your speakers. If you're going to mod, the CDP is indeed the place to start. You'll need to replace those Chinese tubes eventually, but you can do it over time. It's going to sound better than your old rig right out of the box. Welcome to the second step of the audiophile journey. Dave |
We're all pretty excited about your new rig -- love it! As much as I hate to agree with Dcstep (joke! really!), I'm going to and suggest that you direct any remaining energy to hunt for some 12AX7s to replace whatever comes with both the CDP and amp (it takes 12AT7s too, I think). Start with 12AX7s because you can try those out on both pieces (and be pleased, I bet, maybe even stunned). There are several worth trying, but given your tastes, I'm going to suggest you watch eBay for a pair of Amperex Orange Globes (made in Holland--they have an orange globe painted on them). Nice smooth tube. Look for a seller with great feedback and who reports test results; they don't have to be NOS (New Old Stock) though that's nice if the price is right. They usually go off at about $25-30 each, so not too bad. Run the gear with the tubes that come with it for 300-400 hours, so you get a feel for it. Then stuff the old tubes in. Congrats! |
Run the gear with the tubes that come with it for 300-400 hours, so you get a feel for it. Then stuff the old tubes in. The CDP is coming with a level one mod. The Chinese 12AX7's are being replaced with Svetlanas as just part of the upgrade package. I met a Russian girl once named Svetlana. Love that name for some reason. Walter Liederman basically gave me similar advice about the tube upgrades with the amp when I made the purchase. Appreciate a second on that. |
06-20-08: Steidlguitars said: "As much as I hate to agree with Dcstep (joke! really!)," Understood. As I said, some people enjoy playing around with tubes and our Chap-cat seems to be one of those. Hopefully his experience with tubes will be as good as mine (no failures over several years within my system -- knock wood) and he'll only experience the best of the "tube experience." Dave |
ONe good thing to have now or soon will be a good source for tubes. I've had great success with aNDY AT Vintage Tubes and THE FOLKS AT AES (Antique Electronic supply in Az.), as well as some private sellers here on the 'gone. RCA & Telefunken 12AT's will also be worth investigating, as they too are along the same warm smooth sounding tubes as the Orange Amperexs. Both the Orange & Green label Amperex will produce a smoother richer sound than the Russian or Chinese tubes, IMO. That being said I do own some Russian EL 34 tbess, 'CED Winged C'. ON the isolation and acoustic treatment front this guy here has done a wealth of investigating there and offers much info which is most helpful.... http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/index.htm ...from this site there are links, instructions, and so on to DIY many if not all of your acoustic treatments. if time is an issue there are those too that provide kits you only need to asemble and place such as... http://atsacoustics.com/ Loads of other room treatment info & DIY stuff abound on the web and are not hard to find. Quite simple things by way of home furnishings can prove a real benefit too, such as Drapes, Tapestries, Area Rugs, plants (real or fake), etc. Enjoy. |
Well folks, I finally received all my components and furniture and finished setting it up last night. In addition to the JoLida JD302BRC int amp and the JoLida JD100 CDP, I purchased an APC H10 power conditioner, Wireworld Oasis 5 speaker cables, and Wireworld Equinox 5 interconnects. For furniture, I selected Studio Tech HF3 TV stand and matching HF4 audio component rack with heavy gauge steel tubing. The StudioTech furniture went together easier than any I have ever assembled, not even requiring a single tool, and is very sturdy with excellent fit and finish. Each shelf easily holds the weight of any of my components. I set up the power center, then hooked up all the other components. All went without a hitch, but I had to use my old speaker cable, Monster Cable original clear jacket heavy guage. Unfortunately, the Wireworld speaker cable that Walter at Underworld HiFi recommended for my system and my Klipsch speakers was for bi-wiring, and my speakers do not have that capability. The large spade terminals on the cables would not fit on the Klipsch binding posts, as they are too close together. I suppose I will have to try and find a buyer for the cables on Audiogon. I fired up the components and checked my tube bias, and then selected as my first CD to listen to, Open Canvas' s/t album on the Waveform label. Anyone who is familiar with this label knows how beautifully produced their recordings can be. I was blown away right from the start with the difference in this system and my old HK system. It was superior in every facet, with the exception of deep bass, although close. The bass was much tighter, but not felt quite as much. Mids and highs were rich and detailed, in fact about as good as I have ever heard with speakers in this price range. The harshness I experienced with my old system was gone. I also played Charles Mingus' "Black Saint and the Sinner Lady", Robin Trower's "Essential Robin Trower", Kate Bush's "Sensual World," and Massive Attack's "Mezzanine". The latter sounded just incredible. My only wish would be just a little more low end, especially on recordings such as Kate Bush's "Sensual World". To you tube enthusiasts, what would you recommend as far as a tweak to have a little more bass? Should I try tube rolling, or just buy a good sub-woofer? The amp has the stock Chinese tubes, 4-EL34's, 2-12AX7's and 2-12AT7's. Overall, I am very pleased. One other question though. I know there is a burn-in period. Can anyone give me an idea of just how much the sound quality should increase after the burn-in? |
Great report, thanks for getting back to us. You'll gain another 5% or so with burn-in, generally. Some systems sound horrible right out of the box and gain a bunch, but the ones that sound good out of the box usually only gain a little more. If you'd wanted bass, you should have gone SS!! Just kidding, kind of... ;-) (The tube-hugging, tube-rollers will help you improve your sound with some different tubes, just don't expect ALL the bass). Dave |
Chap_cat, I just removed a Virtual Dynamics Power 3 power cord from my Jolida JD100 CDP because it improved the bass too much, for my system. Check out my system link. With the original power cord in place, the bass has mellowed back to normal. If you're looking for more bass, you may want to try one. I have 2 I'm not using at this time. |
Speaking from the tube-hugger corner, I would advise you to wait a little before exploring new tubes - make sure everything is broken in first, and that you have whatever isolation you chose, optimally positioned, etc. It's great that you're happy right out of the box so there's no need to rush anything. For me, there is the first impression of new components followed later(sometimes quite a bit) with the much more useful assessment needed to make beneficial adjustments. |
I agree with above suggestion. Behaviour of new gear can be deceiving while breaking in. Give it some time to settle in. Get to know your new gear, and only then evaluate its weak and strong points. Address the isuess accordingly, either by tube rolling, cable tunning (Morrow spk. cables are know to excell in bass, mids - OK, hights OK) or isolation and vibration control tweaks to help you get the sound you want. It might be also nessecary to reposition your speakers and add some acoustic treatments. But for now.........just wait and enjoy it. Cheers Mariusz |
Chap_cat Again, congrats on getting your feet wet. AS is being said… it takes time for good things to arrive. Searching, deciding, buying, shipping, and then breaking in. The last one being the hardest for me. The buying isn’t terribly easy either. ;-) I really don’t see myself as a ‘tube hugger’, ‘half baked’, or one that just serves up something they ‘think’ is the case. I merely share what I’ve done. I’m not a ‘sand lover’ or ‘switch gear’ devotee either, though I’ve had my share of SS gear. Tube and SS gear, and now an all tube power train. Somewhere down the road I probably will try out some of these new ICE pieces. I’m not against any topology, nor 100% for any. I’m about a sound I like. Period. I think it’s like anything else, red heads, V8s, front wheel drive, scooters, vanilla or chocolate. Whatever floats your boat… past that it’s all rhetoric or subjective controversy. The notation made about SS having better bottom end isn’t always true. Sure enough the inherent traits of SS provide speed, damping, and by so doing, control. Large drivers that are controlled better do seem to give off better slam and presence generally speaking. However I’ve not tried 250 wpc tube amps either… or anything like the big VTL monsters pumping out 600+ wpc. I’ve heard big CJ amps pushing 170 per side and found the bass very good… on plannar speakers too! As you said yourself relating the visit to G. C’s outlet. Hang in there, my exp shows bass to be the last player in the game to show itself for true. Cables, components, and definitely with power cords… always the bass isn’t set well initially and seems to develop last. It can also be enhanced simply by tweaking the rack itself. Prior to the following comment, and so I am not misunderstood, some clarity for us all needs be interjected…. again. From the Meriam Webster free online dictionary: Advantage - noun 1: a factor or circumstance of benefit to its possessor 2: benefit, gain. Now, first hand, you are about to realize the advantages tubes have over solid state for their possessor.. A primary factor or circumstance presented to you now is the user serviceable parts, eg., da tubes demselves! No need to ship off the box to a dealer or upgrader for exchange, replacement, etc. The benefit is both time and cost savings for no other reason than that of not incurring added shipping expenses back to the seller, and thus no extraneous delays. A second noteworthy ‘gain’, or ‘benefit’, is the sound can be tuned, without degradation of the signal by passing it through attenuators, ie., tone controls. A third, will be in the opportunity to increase the stock performance level in this exchange… ie., the user serviceable parts. Your mention of the noticeable less bass presence is one item I’d point to in reference to a performance increase. (Folks, don’t make me go find the definition for ‘increase’ please… looking up advantage about wore me out), simply by making a single change of my 12AX7’s in my preamp, I gained, imcreased, and improved the level of bass in my system. In fact the NOS Amperex white label Bugle Boys improved extension at both ends of the spectrum, along with added leading edge definition. There’s no way around that being a performance level boost. I’d also say those not inclined to move wholely into the glass menagerie are predisposed to chide or discount the obvious and are less intelligent about the genre for no other reason than the lack of experience with tube systems. Take care to differentiate between offered speculation and real world practice. I have seen items right out of the box sound extremely good. Great in fact, and their level of noted increase after run in was far more than any 5%. An assessment of only a 5% gain being the end result after break in borders on the ridiculous… or the most conservative assessment I’ve ever heard stated so broadly. Or it’s a clue to the knowledge level of it’s issuer. There will be far more than any incremental increase. Just pay attention, and do some research in the meanwhile on what tubes do what, in general. One item which will seem to speed up the tube running in process is just leaving the thing on. Even without volume, it’ll help. With volume it’ll help more. Even if it’s low. Simple Google searches on the tube type will reveal all sorts of info. Tube halls of fame, tube museums. Specs. Schematics. Predominate sonic signatures offered by critics and users alike, and more. Tube vendors previously named in this thread will further enlighten you to some degree, though many are hesitant to say a certain this or that will do such and such in your gear. For many, what happens when they exchange tubes in & out of their gear is a lot of fun. For me the mechanical aspect is no fun at all…. The end result is my fun. My paitience level predisposes me to not spend lots of time researching and talking about things lately. I used to do just that. The best answer and always issued here is this: ”you’ll never know for sure until you try it in your rig.” It’s also solid advice, just not always what one wanted to hear. As I’ve said before, there’s no such thing as perfection in this world. Tubes are no exception. A trade off or compromise might be the end product. With the Amperex tubes I mentioned here, the subjective trade off was a more forward (geographically) set sound stage in my system. Not to worry though as other factors can amend that positioning… IF desired. Oh, this just in, the same goes for solid state, digital class amps, and switching amps. That’s why it’s called a system, I suspect. The shortcomings of one item can be enhanced or overcome by the advantages of another as you go about adding & exchanging components in your rig’s building exercise. Everything makes a difference. You judge if the made change is better or just different. Both can be acceptable. I’ll offer these last thoughts, tube rings & isolation footers, and if you can fill those steel tubes supporting your rack, (which also usually adds to the bottom ends region) that too will have you well down the road to refining your systems attributes. I’m very glad to hear your report as a satisfactory one. It’ll get better too. |
Dcstep C'mon Dave. Really. 5%? Good bass only comes with SS? Unless these sentiments were offered only as a jest, they smack of some prejudgement and shouldn't be afforded to someone who sincerely asks for additional honest perspectives without ensuring the joke is known. Though it may well be your experience (s), I've found out otherwise... with several tube power trains I've heard or owned. So my take is just different from your own, albeit, it too, is consistent with a number of previous posters to this thread. Maybe it's not the equipment you show some decided prefferences to here, maybe it's simply an auditory thing instead. |
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Blindjim, you probably think all my posts are about you. I can assure you that's not true and there's no hidden message in each one designed to put your panties in a wad. In the OP's price range he's not likely to find tubes that equal the bass control and texture of similarly priced SS. If it were otherwise, why didn't you guys steer him to a slammin', bass pumpin' tube rig??? I don't have to defend my 5% remark, but, for instance, my Ultimate Ears Triple.fi 10 Pros were fantastic right out of the box and only improved a tiny bit with 100-hours of burn-in. My Analysis-Plus Solo Crystal Oval 8 speaker cables sucked out of the box and sounded incredible after 300-hours, yet my A-P ICs sounded good on day-one and hardly improved after that. Maybe you just don't hear as well as me, otherwise you'd have similar experiences. ;-) Dave |
No need to worry now. He will be just fine.......after 100hrs of brake-in time, some tube rolling etc. It is called system for a reason and right now it needs to mature and to be optimized to sound its best. Seems to me that he is pleased at this point and I am sure it will only get better from this point on. Do not forget, it is he who will enjoy it .....not me or anyone else for that matter. As long as the music is played thru that system and foot is topping, it is all that counts. We did not get where we are on the first date either.........so let the music flow and take credit for what you have brought to this thread and for helping out another audiophile in need. Cheers and enjoy the music Mariusz |
Dcstep, to get the right bass out of a tube amplifier the load plays a crucial role as it does with transistors. Klipsch are traditionally tube friendly; with the right tube amp there will not be a solid state amplifier that can rival it on that speaker. My CAR loudspeakers are the same way- I have yet to see a solid state amp that is even close in the bass on them. OTOH, other speakers, like the Silverlines that Tvad has, are not tube friendly and there will be no tube amplifier that will play bass on them correctly. for more info see http://www.atma-sphere.com/papers/paradigm_paper2.html |
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Dstep I got your panties,sport! You are as incorrigible and ignorant as you are prejudiced with your hero worship of Rowland gear. You talk out of both sides of your mouth everytime it opens... nothing personal, though. You can't say a negative thing and then try to cover it up in the next breath and make things out like no malice was ever intended. Even I can see through such a flimsy veil. I’d say you were kidding, but that would take too much talent and you just ain’t got it. At least home auditions for you take what, half an hour? Perhaps you could have the dealership or distributor play the thing over the phone for you and save everyone a trip charge? Of course, I jest… so don’t get your panties all in a bunch about it. The word ‘best’ that Grant said has a lot to do with things. IMO. Best you ever heard? Best without exception? Best of all other likewise candidates? It bests those unlike ones? I believe I did say previously, good bass is common with SS amps. It’s hard to get past that bit. It can be had with tubes too… to the extent one could say, as I may have, “…..this is the best I’ve had”. Or simply feel what is happening is fine enough…. And there are lots of other factors in the mix too… Not just the amp type being used. True also Gman, the VAC 160 music blocksamps simply do not work well in the bass department with at least one other speaker system too, the Andrea by Eggleston, according to another member who gave them a shot and related his thoughts about it to me. So again, system matching remains a big deal. Was it the speakers fault? ….or was it the amp’s fault? … And then can we say always in every case which is truly best or even best for a given application? I really, really don’t think so. Not 100%, and not 100% of the time. I can only relate that which I know, so my notice as to whatever level of good or bad I get is based on my tastes, and subjective impressions. I guess that’s all anyone can actually be saying when they espouse similar summations. Like belly buttons, everyone’s got one. As our new Jolita owner said about his take on the bass the plannar speakers he heard in San Antonio. He seemed to like that setups bass. I’ll admit also once the DD 15 sub I got recently was mixed into the rig, I was more pleased. I will sure stand on any previous accounts prior to the subs arrival however, and still say I’m getting fine bass information and presence. With the sub running it’s better. Whatever it takes is whatever it takes, and we all remain judge and jury on what’s ‘best’… for us…. Not another. That’s the most understated caveat around here which remains unsaid, but is soon understood to go without saying it. |
Well, I was not surprised that the bass response did not knock my socks off, as I did a lot of research before my purchase. This aspect of tube amps was known to me in advance. As I said in my earlier post, I absolutely love the mids and highs, and only feel I would like a "little" more bass. In fact, depending on the recording, it is often just fine. I agree with the advice to give the amp plenty of time to run in before doing anything additionally. There is always the subwoofer option later on. If need be, I will find a good used quality SW through Audiogon. Someone mentioned the planar speakers that I heard in San Antonio. They were actually powered by a SS amp, and sounded more incredibly lifelike than any speaker I had heard to date, but they lacked deep bass. In fact, the shop owner had just received a new JL Audio SW to pair up with them, but he did not have it connected yet. I would have loved to have heard that system with that SW. |
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Chap_cat, I think I have told you that allready (hear or privetly) to take speaker upgrade into your concideration while choosing new gear. Your system is going to be as good as your weakest link. I know your limitations $$$ and like I said......no need to rush and smart choices - goes a long way. I guess your journey is far from finished.......maybe it is only the begining. Anyways, enjoy your new gear and report back your new experiances and feelings about your new system. Regards Mariusz |
Actually, the more I listen to the new system, the more I realize that the bass response is just more accurate than what I have ever been used to in the past. There is just no boominess at all. I believe I may be mistaking accuracy and good tight bass response to the sound somehow lacking it. The more I listen, the more I am appreciating this system. |
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