David,
Since your new home has a Whole House Surge Protector (new APC: PMP2X) installed at main service panel, why would you want to use the Hubbell units with a built in surge protector that you described above? |
Please read: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?htech&1050541218&openfrom&10&4#10
Sincerely, |
done correctly: surge protection is NOT a one-step process, it's multi-staged & distributed. Power company has two protectors on the service pole: an open-arc grounding point & a high voltage MOV. Inside I use whole-house gas-tube discharge arrestor, followed by MOV's paralleled across a Wattgate 381 outlet, folowed by a line conditioner w\ integral surge protection, followed by MOV's that I've instaled internal to my components.
The HG / IG / protected outlet seems very worthwhile to try out. Install one or two outlets, then after breakin you may wish to compare with some others that have been recommended. If you don't perceive any differences-to-the better, then you know you're done. If you do perceive improvements w\ another outlet then you've pretty much answered your own question. |
Bob,
How long of a breakin period and what entails a breakin for an outlet? Time, amount of power flow, both?
Thanks
David
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Lak,
1. I would like to get the colors as long as it does not impact the sound quality.
2. The additional surge protection at the device protects from surges that initiate from inside the house as well as help keep the device plugged into the surge protector from sending surges to other devices (I asked Hubbell tech serv if the IG8x62 provided 2-way protection and he answered yes)
3. I agree with Bob that multiple layers of protection is best. "Defense in depth" (again, as long at it does not degrade sound quality)
4. For my computer equipment I use multiple surge protection devices. I will even place a surge protector between my UPS and the computers in the study since the computers are not plugged directly into the UPS. (goes through the patch line in the walls)
Thanks,
David |
This is a test to link my new registered user name to this thread
David |
Although you have protected yourself from damn near everything but a close strike nuclear EMF pulse it would seem that your much is to much. Exactly what real world damage are you trying to prevent? A direct lightning strike to your home (not through the service panel)is the only possible threat this overkill might effect. Even then, a direct lightning strike has been seen to arc through almost any protection scheme. As long as you and your equipment don't share a Faraday cage with a 1000k Tesla coil, across the street from a steel mini-mill, in lightning alley, you appear to have lost the point IMHO.
Have you given any thought to the waveform deformation and phase distortion of all this protection? At some point it is like feeding prime rib to the dog. Whats the point other than for bragging rights? If that's the point, certainly carry on. |
David,
The break-in time ehem... for the outlet might realy be endless especially if it's granted with lifetime warranty.
Good point taken with tech person that couldn't find an answer to your 2 questions and there I'm with tech 100%. |
Zorpman: I agree whole-heartedly. Only thing is, some folks have had different i.e. "first hand" experiences in this type of situation. As such, going through the hassle of having to file a claim, fighting with the insurance company, replacing your gear, getting everything dialed back in again, etc... is NOT what they want to go through. In order to get around that point, they go "over-kill" to prevent such things from happening. It is a perfect example of the old saying "once bitten, twice shy". Then again, we might be singing the same tune if our gear had gotten "whacked" by lightning / voltage surges. Sean
> |
Zorpman,
I'm interested in more info on your question: "Have you given any thought to the waveform deformation and phase distortion of all this protection?" As this may actual introduce degradation in sound quality and was not specifically but in general the question/point of my original post to see if anything such as this may impact sound quality. So, will these power artifacts get introduced and if yes, how will they affect the sound quality?
As to your other points, I agree that lightning by its nature could jump protection, it is just that I'm looking for more protection but balanced this against the most cost effective method.
David |
My point is that more/bigger is not necesarily better. The system you describe does not merit 4ga wire or an 80A breaker. You have turned the breaker from a circuit protection device into a HD switch. It also appears that you have more MOVs than the 3rd ID.
Using two high grade Monster Cable voltage stablizers/conditioners seems to be an invitation for oscillation of current, voltage, and phase between the two units. This could result in your power sine wave looking more like a modest ocean swell or, conversly, clipping of the sine wave. Not good for your equipment, sound, or video.
You might want to think about a HD isolation transformer/conditioner such as a Sola CVS 23-23-230-8 (3000kv)for a 240/120v step down as close to the use point as possible. The use of higher voltage (240v)will reduce your need for lower gage wire for long runs. A good isolation transformer's current will go into a clean collapse if faced with a power surge or overload (not bloody likely to overload this 70kg of copper with a transient demand peak). Use one of your Monster cable conditioners as your current divider/power point to limit your connections (well done high current/voltage connections are not bad but the fewer and simpler a design the better (on the whole)).
Lower your circuit breaker trip point to 150-200 of your maximum inrush current draw (or 150% if using slow-trip breakers). I seem to remember that these high end Monster Cable conditioners have programable turn-ons so why not use that feature to lower your inrush current spike to closer to solid state levels and let the circuit breaker actually provide real world protection?
If I understand your system design (and I am not sure that I do) I would also be concerned about ground loops forming from your star ground design. Hmmmmm is one of the most frustrating issues to deal with and simple ground design can be a savior.
Good Luck. |
Break in time for outlets:
Cryod outlet in place of outlet that you run a freezer or refrigerator (30 days)
regular outlet...same as above (10 days) |
Three errors in my second post
1) 3000va not kv
2) 150-200 should be 150-200%
3) solid state should be steady state
Sorry |
Zorpman & all: The wiring and drywall are complete. Remaining tasks:
A. Pick out the electrical receptacles for:
- Supply to the AV cabinet (Monster AVS2000)
- Computer/LAN Cabinet (UPS which requires 30AMP 120V L5-30P - 30A Twist-Lock)
- Subwoofers
- RPTV
- Equipment Room (ER) patch outlets.
B. Then pick out power cords where applicable & effective
BTW: The choice to go with the MC-4-2 wire as well as the 10 & 12-gauge sizes was to future proof as best as possible within reasonable limits. For example: Using MC-10-2 to supply the AV Cab I could change the breaker and outlet to 30AMP if I needed to :-) future upgrade of the Denon 5803 to 5 or more large monoblock type esoteric Amps and the other components to match, Add more circuits to the subpanel for a 2nd UPS requiring 30AMP for the computer/LAN cabinet, etc..... Also, the subpanel is rated for 100AMPs but even this could be upgraded so much more easily than running a replacement or even a 2nd supply line from the Service Entrance all the way to the other side of the house (50ft of which 85% of the distance is now finished) to the subpanel in the ER, etc....
And yes, receptacles are the easiest to replace, but why spend even $15 ea and replace in a few months if dissatisfied, if a few $ more (ie: IG8362) can get the colors and performance that matches the equipment I currently have. If the sound will not be degraded compared to an IG8300 or PS Audio Port, (ie: $30-50USD max) etc. (BTW: Im not opposed to the PS Audio and its price, but Im having a hard time justifying it which is why Im posting to this forum for info and advice)
David |
Good Luck!
Have you thought about using twist lock plugs/outlets throughout the set up? Dead reliable, orders of magnitude more contact area than NEMA straight plugs.
Cheap by the dozen on Ebay. |
A direct lightning strike to your home (not through the service panel) is the only possible threat this overkill might {A}ffect. Even then, a direct lightning strike has been seen to arc through almost any protection scheme. The statement reeks of inexperience. Obviously came from one who has never had to deal with real world issues. No idea. I've been there - done that. I know what happens & what it takes firsthand from dealing with numerous damages due to transient surges in the consumer, commercial, & industrial realms. I know how to protect, what causes degradations, what doesn't. David has an excellent grasp on the situation as well, including minimization of the surge impedance of his line source. Line surges (NOT necessarily lightning related) can originate from within or from without. Connect directly-to-line; you're asking for it & sooner than later you're gonna get it - deservedly so. Suffer the consequences if you can afford the waste of time & money. I chose not to live through *that* again - it's happened twice already. You don't know the sickening feeling of seeing fire literally flying out of your amplifer's top grille vents as I do. My multiple protection layers reduced the damage to only a single failed op-amp during the second event. Larry's (Lak's) description of breakin above is certainly adequate from my experience. |
For the record, Bob is employed in a field that is extremely high tech and 100% dependent on clean and reliable AC. If his "shop", which is loaded with phenomenally expensive audio / video / RF / computer gear has dozens upon dozens of antennas on the property, happened to go down due to AC or lightning related problems, people around the world would know about it in a moments time. I am NOT joking. As such, i'm sure that they've taken major precautions to safeguard both their equipment and the companies' livelihood in a manner that is both "bullet-proof" and non-detrimental in terms of AC & lightning protection. The obvious conclusion, if one knew Bob's background as i do, is that much of his knowledge on the subject is both job related AND from first hand experience at home. As such, if someone wanted to learn about such things, Bob may be able to help you out without giving you the sales pitch that you would get from a "professional" salesman or installer. Sean
> |
Bob, anyone, should I give up my color scheme for the Orange IG8300? Will I hear a difference compared to the IG8362 with the surge protector, steal strap and rivet?
To all: I too have been there, done that. (Although not to the extent that Bob's has - no smoke & flames but did have to go through filing an insurance claim no more aging cheap surge protectors)
I'm a Systems Integrator for computer systems, networks and security. Almost 20 years ago I went through 3M's Electrostatic Discharge (ESD) & protection from it type training, and since then have dealt with designing requirements for, integration and implementing computer systems, networks and security along with UPS, surge protection and ESD Protection for clients. (and myself)
I know for example that even relatively small: transients/surges (including ESD), deformed sine waves, brownouts, overages, EMI/RFI, etc. will degrade components within a given device over time with the ultimate result of failure of the device. Therefore, protection from these is vital for the protection of one's investment and time. And yes, inside one's house is a minefield of sources for surges especially ESD that require protection to be implemented. (most know the major culprits, but the so called minor ones can cause damage over time such as the powering on and off of PC's & monitors, microwave ovens, bathroom fans (major source!!!!!), exercise equipment (powered treadmills!!! WOW what a source!!!), etc.
As for that treadmill which is a "True" brand and almost top of their line: Just watch a lamp plugged into the same circuit and yes every step one takes not only dims the light for a portion of each step one takes but shoots surges and noise into the electrical system. (no, I have not measured it ... yet) A good quality surge protector (which of course is in use) will help limit the surges and noise from the treadmill out to the rest of the house but not completely - remember that noise is diminished (X dB reduction) but not eliminated and the brownout for every step taken is not resolved which will affect most devices.
Of course one can really isolate power such as a dedicated feed and/or separate service entrance for power destined for your AV equipment but this of course does not protect one from ESD. However, even this isolated power can be easily bypassed if one does not connect every item that is wired in any way (Coax, interconnects (like powered subwoofers), wired remotes, etc.) to this power. BTW: seems that it's a catch 22, because too many devices and you may have limited the culprits but still have introduced source for many of the problems listed above. Hopefully the high quality of the power supplies in all the attached components will limit the problems but not eliminate them.
Part of any protection scheme must include all the inbound signals and attached devices. Including surge protectors on the telephone line, antennas (HDTV, Sat, FM, etc.), CATV, etc. If one has wired RS-232 or RS-4xx communication from a Crestron type device to for example an HVAC system, then one should use an RS-232/4xx surge protection device. ie: close all back doors for surges, etc. (APC Protectnet devices: model PV for any AV type coax (antenna, cable modem, DSS, etc), P232 and a 4-port ver: P232-4 for RS-232/4xx, PTEL or 4-port PTEL-4 for telephone. I have two P232-4, one PTEL-4, and four PV in line at the entrance of the respective service except the P232-4's which will be mounted inside the AV Cabinet protecting my Crestron AV2 and even the RS232 line between the Crestron and the Denon AVR5803's RS232 port is protecting one from the other in case of malfunction of one sending a surge over the serial line to the other)
As for ESD, keep styrofoam and especially scotch tape away form all AV, computer, network, etc. type equipment or anything that is attached to them. Also don't even stand next to that equipment when using scotch tape!! Properly ground equipment cabinets/racks for ESD. I have designed an ESD protection scheme for my Equipment Room using 3M ESD Floor Mats, etc. and the Theater side of the AV Cabinet. Three in-wall insolated (green) ground wires wired from the subpanel's ground bar (same termination point for all receptacle grounds associated w/ the ER & Theater in order to prevent ground loops) is attached to: (one size smaller than the ground wire in the outlet supplying power to the given device/cabinets to encourage the flow through the receptacle's ground):
1. AV Equipment Cabinet
2. Solid copper ground bar on the wall next to the Computer/LAN Cabinet. The cabinet is attached to the bar using the same gauge size as the in-wall ground wired to the bar and the 3M ESD Floor Mats will be wired to this bar)
3. A wall plate on an electrical type box that I'm designing that will be next to the handle on the Theater side of the AV Equipment Cabinet with the rule that one must touch this before touching the cabinet. (Since no device is connected to this line, we used a 10-gauge wire. Also, a 1 Mega ohm resister will be in installed in-line to properly drain/dissipate the ESD without the sound/pain/EMI/RFI associated with the spark - this is per 3M ESD standards. If one forgets, the cabinet is grounded and will drain/dissipate the ESD. I'm looking into the need to attach a drain pad/wire (w/ a 1 Mega ohm resister) to the plexi portion of the door (the door has a steel frame but most of the door is plexi) to dissipate ES w/o the spark at the same time providing a backup to the wall plate). Some people may think that I'm going to extremes w/ ESD protection but they don't really understand the threat that ESD poses. Every cable and open connector on the back of the devices is waiting for an ESD disaster or will at least cause some damage. Even touching the front outside of a device (inserting a CD/DVD and touching the chassis) can and will in most cases allow the ESD inside the chassis and damage interior components. Most non-ruggedized-military equipment (ie: not designed with complete ESD protection) will allow ESD inside.
(btw, I have not talked about all the different kinds of ESD and their potential for damage)
Sorry to be so long winded...
David |
Bob/anyone, I need to place the order: Should I give up my color scheme for the Orange IG8300? Will I hear a difference compared to the IG8362 with the surge protector, steal strap and rivet?
Please advise.
David |
David sorry but no one can answer your question but you. What happens & the differences perceived when you combine certain elements together into a system is unique to that system alone. Try the setup in various ways. If you are happy with the results when using the desired colors then stick with that. If not then continue to experiment. |
There is one problem that can be a real bummer. A tree falling against a pole-mounted transformer. this can send a charge up the street and take out several service panels. i speak from experience. The property-owner who's tree came crashing down paid for a whole block of new transformers with insurance. the insurance adjuster allowed each of us to contact our own electrician and more than a few of us got a upgrade out of the deal as it would otherwise not have passed modern codes. The event fried several computers, even those having the Radioshack strips resting on the floor. Here is an event that settles the 'lightning debate' |
