Opalchip, being a trained musician and a lover of music all my life, I think I know of which I speak, and I don't agree with your incorrect and slanted interpretation of my comments.
So, your implication is that because I seek out and prefer recordings that are outstanding in sonics (& performance), I'm an 'audiophile' with a negative connotation, and can't possibly be a true music lover, or I'd be listening to flawed recordings.
I also listen to flawed recordings, but listening to the compression, grain, brightness, thinness, distortion, squashing, etc. -- has become something less tolerable to me over time. If you prefer a speaker that editorializes the sonics, fills out a thin, dead, flat, sizzly, equalized recording, and rolls off detail enough to make these recordings sound more palatable, that's your perogative. But don't claim this makes you a "musiclover" rather than an "audiophile."
Further, you criticize a brilliant engineer like Albert Von Schweikert for his engineering choices. What qualifications do you have in speaker design to so strongly criticize someone who knows speakers inside and out?
These types of posts turn a good thread into a pissing match & bashing exercise, rather than a positive interchange.
|
First off - it ain't me who's pissing. You bash people personally, and then hide behind the implication that if we respond we're turning this into a pissing match." Nice strategy, but, if you review my 2 posts I have not personally attacked anyone the way you are. To respond:
1. It was YOU who stated that non-audiophile, "flawed" recordings "SOUND BETTER" on other speakers. It wasn't me. Is "better" not better now? Your direct quote: "some audiophiles choose equipment that makes their favorite flawed recordings sound better, rather than carefully choose recordings that are musical".
And frankly, the reason I was sucked into this quagmire to begin with, is that with those particular remarks you were attempting to discredit other posters here who don't personally enjoy the JR's by questioning their equipment, music choices, and/or audiophile sensibilities. I objected to that - which was at the heart of my first post. Discrediting those who don't agree as probably having inferior systems or software is not cool. The original poster asked for our opinions on the speaker, not on what we imagine are each others' qualifications for liking or disliking them.
2. Nowhere did I imply "audiophile" to have a even a remotely negative connotation - that's in your imagination. If you think otherwise, then show us the direct quote. I posited that the audiophile's priorities are in a different order than the musicphile - which is a self-evident and accepted fact. You brought a value judgment to that, not me. And of course, no one is 100% audiophile and 0% musicphile or vice versa.
3. Albert Von Schweikert is obviously a knowledgable engineer and a very fine speaker designer. And a very astute marketer who crafts a sound that a lot of people like. So? We don't all have to personally prefer his choices. And I certainly DO know enough to know where the inevitable compromises lie. But that's theory - what matters is if we like how they sound enough to make them our primary "window" into the music, and some of us don't. No big deal, but according to you that must be because we don't know enough or don't have ears as good as yours.
Of course there is one other possibility - Have you for a moment considered that maybe we're hearing something you're not? If YOU don't hear something, does that mean it doesn't exist?
And by the way - have you asked anyone who LIKES the JR's what THEIR qualifications for liking them are? No? I didn't think so...
Post whatever you'd like - I'll refrain from any more posts to this thread. |
Opalchip, As one of the owners who is not happy with the finish quality of the speaker, I will agree on that point. We are all buying what we enjoy, and I have no doubt any trained musician has a heck of a lot more knowledge as to what insturments should actually aound like. I guess there are several schools of thought as to what sounds most "realistic", and depending upon ones exposure, he or hshe chooses accordingly. Thanks for your perspective....interesting .
I enjoy the sound, and to each his own is what it's really all about.
Carl |
Opalchip: Thank you for not posting again. You are an ignorant - bombastic fool. You contradict yourself and insult everyone on Audiogon by saying that "audiophiles" put equipment above music as a priority. What else is the equipment for but to listen to music?
You supposedly are an expert speaker designer who could teach VS how to better design speakers, you supposedly play several instruments, have had extensive musical training - I suppose your a Navy Seal, fighter pilot, and astronaut also.
Your post did nothing but put down VS's design, sound, finish, and you assumed that everyone who bought them is dumping them. Then, in your next post you say VS is a "very fine speaker designer".
I could go on and on about your inconsistencies, but I think it is transparent. By the way if this post was about any other piece of equipment that I was familiar with, I'd call you on your ignorant statements just the same. This has nothing to do with VS I have no special interest in him or these speakers other than my enjoyment.
I buy CDs that I listen to only in my car, because they sound so horrible, but I like the music. We are trying to get closer to the music and bad recordings hide and distort the original music that was recorded. If your a music lover than I would think that would be important to you.
There were several criticisms that were posted above, and although I may not have noticed the same sounds from these speakers in my system, you could tell that they were legitimate and from actual experience. You say youre a music lover, but all youve talked about is the design and other physical characteristics - everything but the sound.
If you would have said that it is a very revealing speaker that won't hide bad recordings or equipment - that would have been a contribution. But, when you say that it's for gear head audiophiles and not for music lovers, then go on to explain who fits in what box - then you just sound ignorant - and do a disservice to people seeking the truth.
Rob |
Rob, Just read this thread including all of your posts. You sound like your ox has been severly gored, however I find little justification for the 'personal' nature of your posts which attack others, including Opalchip. So be it. You define yourself far more than you define others - your choice. :-(
But, in passing, I would ask you to reflect on and qualify one of your statements. Exactly what do you believe constitutes the "truth" that "people" are seeking? Assuming that you can define this "truth" how do you know when you are in its presence? And how do you know that "people" are seeking this "truth"? IMHO most folks are seeking that in which they find the greatest pleasure, but aren't so presumptious as to call it "truth" in any universal sense. Last I heard Diogenes was still walking about with his lamp. |
Since we've veered off a little bit here, I decided to reread the original post. I'm under the auditioner category and this sums up my experience: I found the 4jrs to be involving (which is a good thing, I wasn't looking around the room or checking the time on my watch...), but rather than an emotional connection to the music/performance, I felt more of a connection to the sound quality of the recording. So there WAS a connection, it just wasn't the one that I ultimately look for.
I think that's why I categorize them as fun to listen to. If someone's particular priorities are different than mine, then it's very possible that the 4jrs can provide emotional connection for them - that's fine. It's ok, we don't all have the opportunity to hear every piece of gear in the world, but I'm just very used to the seamless integration that my speakers provide, and that's what I listen for in other brands. I would still recommend anyone in the price range to try them, because we all hear things differently. |
Newbee, thanks for refering to the "truth" thread - I meant to get to that. |
Newbee,
I meant the truth as opposed to making stuff up. But that's just my opinion - I could be wrong.
I wasn't getting into a philosophical discussion about truth; I thought that was obvious, but I guess I should have been more clear.
Yes, I reveal my true self. I see no reason to hide it or to be artificial. I apologize for the ugliness of that. I feel justified with my post. You obviously feel justified in personally attacking me, and I will take accept your criticism.
Rob |
Rob, I was not personally attacking you, I was commenting on your conduct in this thread. There is a meaningful difference. All I did was hold up a mirror for you - you looked and admitted that it revealed an ugliness. If it matters not to you, it matters not to me. If my post offened you, or other Audiogon members I appoligize for not finding a more civil way of expressing myself.
Something else for you to reflect on - consider that generally only folks who have your best interests at heart will tell you when your fly is open. The rest stand about and giggle about how ridiculious you appear and wait for your Johnson to appear.
FWIW, on the original inquiry I have nothing I consider of value to say about the 4Jr's. I've followed their entry into the market place, the initial marketing, the reviews, and the different reactions folks have had to them. I've heard them a few times under unfamilar conditions. I've simply assumed that they are good speakers which may not have risen to the elevated initial expectations some folks may have had for them. This happens often in this hobby. That they would meet all of your expectations is wonderful.
I would agree with you that speculating why any group of folks would be drawn to, or not, any particular sound system, would be specious at best, and I think very few would actually fit into the stereotypical profiles advanced. There are a few audiophiles who listen to train whistles and planes taking off on high end systems as well as musicphiles who listen to Mahler on Bose speakers. I would expect the the total of both would be less than 1% of the Audiogon contributors, and that the majority of us enjoy well recorded music on revealing systems, but can easily listen to music which is less than optimally recorded over these systems when it is music and/or performance which truly engages us.
|
Newbee,
I was not offended at all. You may have used tact, but you did personally attack me. Your post said "You define yourself far more than you define others - your choice - ;(". It may be a passive aggressive way to attack rather than the straight, harsh attacks that I dish out. I can accept it however. I expected that after my post. I still stand by it. I appreciate your candor and I have nothing against you or Opalchip, but when someone starts making claims, I have to call them on it - especially if he is going to make some crazy claims, contradicting himself, and then running off so he would not have to answer speculation. I should be more dignified instead of ugly about it (something for me to work on). I see my own shortcomings, and I'm sure if you turned that mirror around you would see some as well. That's neither here nor there.
I think the criticism about recordings that are less than optimal has more to do with the speakers not masking the flaws than the fact that these speakers don't sound good on less than optimal recordings. Most of what I listen to is less than optimal and these speakers sound great with that. If a recording is forward sounding in the treble however, these speakers will sound forward in the treble. Given some of the criticisms above make me wonder what in their system or recording is causing these sounds that I don't hear in my systems with average recordings, and I am a long way from having perfect gear. That's all.
Rob |
It may be of interest to readers here that Opalchip has posted critical commentary on nearly every thread about VR-jr speakers on Audiogon. It almost appears to be a crusade...
His overly verbose prose and personal barbs directed at me and other posters should probably not be dignified with a response, since they are transparent attempts at one-upmanship and having the last word.
However, I will make a few comments regarding this.
Opalchip's statement that I'm bashing people personally is absurd. Self-projection is probably the best explanation for that. I bashed no one, but simply stated my opinion that there may be listeners who make criticisms of these speakers, based on using poor-sounding recordings to make those judgments. This hardly equates to personally bashing people.
Despite his denial, he did give "audiophile" a negative connotation. Read his first post---and this will be clear.
By the way, not all recordings that are great music and a great performance have bad sonics. Some have exceptional sound, others have listenable sound, and others are shrill and unlistenable, or worse.
Robm321, let me apologize for how you've been treated here, and thanks for your contribution. |
I'm baaaaaack - I can't let this kind of behavior go, and I'm tempted to report it. Robm is an angry guy, that's OK with me. His post wasn't exactly accurate (that's an understatement) but so be it. But the intentional, in-your-face-lying by Kevziek is not excusable. There have been 26 posts previous posts asking for direct advice on vr4-jr's qualities for a prospective purchase. I made comments on 4 threads, all of which were solid advice and 2 of which were tilted in favor of the VR-4 JR's. IMHO the type of behavior exhibited by these two has no place on Audiogon.
Here is a list of the thread titles followed by whether or not I posted. In addition my relevant quotes are copied verbatim below along with a couple of their direct quotes from these same threads (an interesting read):
Thread Title----------------------------------------Post by opalchip
Von Schweikert VR-4 GEN.III SE -VS- VR-4 JR?........No
Von Schweikert VR-4 Jr Room and amp Requirements....No
Von Schweikert VR-4,Jr..............................No
Thiel CS6 to Von Schweikert VR4 JR - Am i Crazy?....Yes
Vandersteen 3A Sig vs. Von Schweikert VR4 Jr........Yes
Speakers that work close to the back wall...........No
Schweikert VR4-Jr vs. Gallo Reference 3 with SA.....No
Best Speaker Match for JC-1's : VMPS or Von S.?.....No
What speakers to replace Paradigm 100.2? Help.......No
Vr4jr and Contour 3.3, In the same league??.........No
Finish Quality of Von Schweikert VR4jr's............No
Von Schweikert VR4jr................................No
Finish Quality of Von Schweikert VR4jr's(#2)........Yes
Von Schweikert VR4jr's in a 15' x 12' Room?.........No
Please help me on a speaker selection...............No
Are the Von Schweikert VR-4JRs really all that?.....No
Is this nuts? (urge to try the VSA VR4Jr).............No
VR-4JR or USHER 6371.................................No
vr4 Jr vs. B&W Signature 805.......................... No
von Schweikert VR4 Jr ............................... No
Bag End TA15 vs. Von Schweikert VS4 series.............No
Von Schweikert VR-4,Jr. .............................No
B&W 703 or VR4 jr?.....................................No
VR-4jr or Gallo Nucleus Reference 3....................Yes
Von Schweikert VR-4 GEN.III SE -VS- VR-4 JR?............No
Von Schweikert VR4-Jr: Urgent Opinions Needed...........No
THREAD-- Thiel CS6 to Von Schweikert VR4 JR
Should poster replace Thiel CS6's with JR's? OPALCHIP says -"VR4 Gen. III se's maybe, VR6 maybe - not VR4jr's"
THREAD-- Vandersteen 3A Sig vs. Von Schweikert VR4 Jr
OPALCHIP says -"(Choose Vr4-jr's for) Rock, yes. Large scale Classical, maybe. Hip Hop, definitely. Jazz and acoustic - no way. The Vandersteens are what you would be happier with."
THREAD-- Finish Quality of Von Schweikert VR4jr's
OPALCHIP says -"Used JR's are showing up pretty frequently with resale prices fairly low (for some reason). Some sellers have priced them under $2000 already, and at that price I wouldn't complain."
THREAD-- VR-4jr or Gallo Nucleus Reference 3
OPALCHIP says -"I'm not going to get into what I would buy, because that's purely a personal preference. But if you must pick one of those 2 - my opinion is that the VR4jr's are both more versatile and musical."
KEVZIEK says in this same thread "Yes, the Cherry veneer is way too revealing of flaws, and I think the speakers should be finished better, particularly the Cherry. My pair is African Hazelwood, and they were a handpicked pair. My finish is quite good, but I do agree there could be more coats of a better urethane."
INTERESTING - "HANDPICKED". HMMMMMMM...
THREAD--Bag End TA15 vs. Von Schweikert VS4 series
Robm says - "Good for you! I love my VS speakers, but they aren't for everyone."
FUNNY - THAT'S ABOUT ALL I'VE SAID HERE AND BEEN BASHED OUTRAGEOUSLY FOR IT. |
Opalchip
LOL - you must sure have a lot of free time on your hands LOL
No offence man... its just funny the lengths some folks go to make a point on this forum... Did you actually go back and go thru all those threads?... thats funny.
Good listening |
Hi Arkio - Yes it did cut into my listening time tonight, but you just can't let that kind of bull be perpetrated on a personal level. Heated debate about speaker design is fine, or audiophile vs. musicphile is fine*** - that's what the Audiogon boards are for. But nothing I posted even remotely justifies these falsefications and personal attacks. It's just nuts. I've really never encountered this kind of thing here before.
Also - one admission to Kevziek - in my first response to you where I said you were bashing me, I was incorrect. I had been looking at Robm's post and mixed it up with yours. So maybe it put you in a bad mood, but even before that you were warping my statements and intentions in your post, and put things on a personal level. With statements like:
"you criticize a brilliant engineer like Albert Von Schweikert for his engineering choices" - which I absolutely didn't and wouldn't do anywhere.
And "So, your implication is that... I'm an 'audiophile' with a negative connotation" - which I patently stated you misconstrued based on zero evidience, and that you're still asserting.
And you ask "What qualifications do you have in speaker design to so strongly criticize...?" - Of course, if you look back objectively at my first post, I hadn't strongly criticized ANYTHING. I had said the JR's weren't for me and stated why - plain and simple.
So it wasn't "bashing", and I apologize for calling it that - but it's sure wasn't nice, and I did nothing to provoke it. And it's completely out of place on a board where speaker design is the main topic of conversation.
And now, the obsequious "apology" to Robm321 for "how you've been treated here" must appear very odd to anyone who has read his insulting fusillades at other posters. (Sorry for the big words again.)
***BTW - Just for fun, here are the top 3 defintions of "audiophile" found on Google / Answers.com:
"1.au·di·o·phile (ô'dē-ə-fīl') pronunciation
n. A person having an ardent interest in stereo or high-fidelity sound reproduction.
2. audiophile
An individual who is very interested and enthusiastic about the sound quality of a stereo or home theater system. Sometimes, audiophiles are more passionate about the equipment being used than the music itself.
3. An audiophile (literally, "one who loves sound") is one who is concerned with achieving high-quality results in the recording and playback of music. Audiophile values may be applied at all stages of the chain: the initial audio recording, the production process, and the playback (usually in a home setting). The adjective "high-end" is commonly applied to audiophile vendors, products, and practices.
There is great skepticism outside the audiophile community surrounding whether these practices and products have the claimed effects on the listening experience, and there are often accusations of self-delusion. People on both sides of the debate concede that, since many audiophiles are laymen, they are vulnerable to exploitation by fanciful claims made by unethical vendors."
------------------------------------------------
Interesting, eh? Anyway, I really am done this time as I can't justify putting any more energy into this idiocy. |
Kevziek,
Thank you for the support.
Opalchip,
Get some professional help soon. I'm worried about you. I do care.
Rob |
There are a few lessons to be learned here. The first is that not everyone is qualified to assess the accuracy of a speaker. It would be like me trying to judge poodles in a dog show. There would be a lot of unhappy dog owners -- and rightfully so.
Despite their good intentions, a lot of people simply don't have the trained ears or the points of reference to know whether a speaker (or entire system) is accurate. And if you fall into the camp that doesn't care if a speaker is accurate (i.e., it's all a matter of personal taste and what you like is what counts), that's fine, but I think the majority of audiophiles are in search of an accurate system. And accuracy isn't subjective.
I've owned lots of high-end speakers (amps, preamps, transports, processors and CD players, too), including Dunlavy SC-IV/A, Vandersteen 3A Signature, Quad 988, and the VR-4Jr. definitely holds its own against any of these. For example, it's far more revealing than the Vandersteen, which is a fine speaker, but no matter what I did, in my room at least, it couldn't approach the transparency and resolution of the Von Schweikert. And the VR-4Jr. offers better dynamics and bass extension than the 988. I can't say they're better -- or even as good -- as the SC-IV/A, but they're less than half the price and they don't get embarrassed by the big (and that's a problem) Dunlavy.
As for Opalchip's assertion that you can't judge a person's hearing by his/her equipment, on the contrary. I think it speaks volumes. If someone is slamming something, I want to know what he listens to. If it's Bose 901s and a Yamaha receiver, that's all I need to know. Also, like Kevziek, I'm a musician and studied for several years with a member of the Detroit Symphony. I know what live unamplified instruments are supposed to sound like.
The VR-4Jr. speakers are far from perfect, but they're mighty good at the $4k price point. |
WOW this thread had a little bit of everything, very positive, negative, off topic and more off topic.
I've decided I love the VR4jrs quirks as they be.
If I had to describe their sound with one word it would be
"RICH". Not too bright, not too bland, not too slow. Their balance from top to bottom, their excellent imaging, huge soundstage, deep reaching(tight)bass,
make these one of the few speakers I've heard near their price that do it right.... for me at least. |
