How to fix my detailed, accurate but BRIGHT system

Buy headphones or move the system to a friendly room -- or get another system for a friendly room. Rooms can nearly make a system, and can easily kill one. Yours sounds to me like a killer.

By the way, I know nothing, and YMMV.

These speakers are best driven by an amp that doubles power output as impedance is halved... so that the volume in the bass is equal to the volume in the mids and highs. Your Butler 2250 does not double power as impedance is halved.... The result is that the amp produces somewhat louder volume in the highs than it does in the bass, which causes a tonal imbalance that emphasizes the highs....

As long as an amp produces more decibels into higher impedances (treble region) than into lower impedances (bass region), the speaker will sound louder in the treble.

Tvad, this is one of the rare occasions on which I must disagree with you. Unless the amp is approaching the point at which it would be running out of either current capability or voltage swing capability, frequency response flatness will have nothing to do with the ability to double power into lower impedances. Basically, the amp will provide a flat frequency response into the speaker's frequency-dependent impedance as long as the amp's output impedance is low.

The 2250's output impedance (or equivalently, damping factor, which as I'm sure you know is output impedance divided into 8 ohms) does not appear to be specified. However, even though it is a no-feedback design, I would assume it is a small fraction of an ohm, which would result in just a small fraction of a db difference in voltage delivery into 4 ohms compared with 6 ohms or 8 ohms.

Any difference in power delivery which that may result in is a function of the speaker design, not the amp design, as long as the amp remains within its output current limitations, which it should as even the last line of your last post seems to indicate.

I think the posts by Johnny, Rich, and others about addressing the room issues are very well put and on the mark.

Regards,
-- Al

My first response would be to address the room issues as others have mentioned. But you clearly state that since this is a living space your options there are limited. By far the easiest thing to do would be to experiment with different interconnects, although you don't mention what you're using currently so it's tough to make any recommendations at this point. But something like an Acoustic Zen Matrix Reference might do the trick, and it shouldn't cost you much more than shipping to give them a try. Best of luck.

I have a lot of glass and all tile floors. Room treatment is not an option as this is our main living space. Should I try a tube DAC, Tube Pre., tube Buffer? How do I warm up the sound I'm getting?

Sorry, but it *has* to be room treatment. Nothing brings out glare at higher volumes like glass, and tile doesn't help. Changing your components out is completely barking up the wrong tree. You need a thick area rug over the tile and drapes or pleated shades at a minimum for the glass.

Take a look at the Stereophile test measurements for your speakers: Three things stand out: 1) the sensitivity is *very* low at 84.5dB (your Butler TDB 2250 should be a great match as you say); 2) this system is nearly devoid of panel resonances, so it's probably not cabinet colorations creating the forward sound; 3) the response curve is *extraordinarily flat*

Your other components are also very linear and if anything, the Butler and the PS Audio should be on the mellow side. Early floor reflections off the tile and side reflections from the glass are almost certainly the culprits.

There are many room treatment panels available now that look like hanging wall art or at least decorator panels. You really need to look into these, or you need to switch to a speaker that has no vertical dispersion to speak of and tightly controlled lateral dispersion as well. That would be a shame because you have a great speaker.

Greg,

I've faced a very similar set of problems in my setup and room - an otherwise great sound that was just too bright. My room has wood floors and a tile lined fireplace/wall that I can't do much with. That said, I have two specific suggestions:

First, spend $50 and get Jim Smith's book Get Better Sound and make sure your setup is as optimal as you can get it. I thought I knew what I was doing before, but even some subtle changes in speaker placement and where I sat in relation to the back wall made a big difference in cleaning things up for me.

Second, if adjusting your room (to whatever degree you can) doesn't do enough and your ready to swap out a component, then my experience says the culprit is likely the DAC. I've been using the exact same PS Audio DL3 with Cullen level 3 mod and had consistent problems with brightness and listening fatigue - even after improving my room. Just this week, I've replaced it with the new PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC and the results have been fantastic. I've had three listening sessions of more than three hours each with no fatigue - something I could never do with the DL3. As an added bonus, I got $1,000 credit for trading in my DL3 - which is what you could get for it here on Audiogon.

But definitely start with Jim's book and whatever room treatments you can muster first.

Good luck!

It's interesting you don't mention you I/C's and S/C's. Why not start with them?

It's amazing what small adjustments to your speaker set-up can do to tame brightness. Play around with your toe-in, distance of separation, distance to listening postion, etc. I've also found that titling speakers back (or forward) ever so slightly can make a big difference as well.

Throw a little Mcintosh into it

I agree with the above recommendations. You don't have to buy audiophile room treatments, but you need to address some of the reflecting surfaces in your room. Glass, tile, and good sound wont happen, until you add some absorption in your room. When you say glass, I'm assuming you're referring to windows and not mirrors.

I wouldn't waste your money buying different equipment either, until you fix your room problems. All you need is an area rug in front of the speakers, and some thick drapes over the glass, and you can close the drapes for listening and then open them, when you're done.

What is the distance the speakers are from the front and side walls?

Rich

Although the Rowland Capri is a fine preamp... I have found that systems with tube pre and solid state amps with be more musical and warm. Tube buffers will only be a band aid and may even make the sound worse. Matching tube gear to solid state can be a touchy job. I am sure you spent much time in evaluating gear before you made the purchases, thats the down side! If I was you I would take a second look and my needs,then think seriously think about some changes that make sense. Thats the up side.

Good Luck

Good Luck

I'm curious as to what interconnects you're using.

My guess is you need more soft absorbing material to offset all the glass and hard surfaces..Heavier Curtains,Large Area Rug ,possibly Tapestry behind the speakers..This can be done very nicely to fit in the room..Actually soften a hard looking/sounding room....Bottom line that could be your first line of attack..Probablly the cheapest too....

if i had to guess, you have some issues with your room. it may not fix all your concerns but i am certain it will address some. i also have my stuff in the living room so rather than traditional treatments, i have heavy velvet floor to ceiling drapes, a thick rug and over sized fabric couches. it is amazing what these types of "treatments" can do, especially the drapes.

if it were me, i would start with that type of action before adding or subtracting gear.