How much will you pay for an exotic cartridge....

This is about the Etsuro Gold cartridge which is $21k USD retail through the USA dealer. It’s about $8500 USD less (retail pricing) through a legit Europe or Japan dealer for someone living in the US.

Actually what’s your problem? My prior thread...not post, has nothing to do with this thread. Read my OP again, this time without your preconceived idea.

This thread and your previous thread have something in common.

It is obvious that for some reason you don’t like to buy this Japanese cartridge from the distributor in your area. But you can’t even tell us what cartridge do you mean, you told us it’s $8k cartridge. Do you think all distributors are the same (bad) ? This is why i’m asking what is your problem, because it is clearly your problem. Sometimes the problem is the customer, not the distributor. I’ve met great distributors as i said earlier.

I’m pretty sure any legit seller will do his best for the customer who willing to spend money, especially $8k on a cartridge. If you think the seller/dealer is not an expert, i think he is a business man anyway, i believe you can appreciate discount when you will tell him that grey market dealer can offer the same cartridge cheaper (but without any further support by the manufacturer for sure). Based on my own experience with US distributor (as a foreigner) i can confirm that discount even for $5k cartridge from the official distributor can be up to 20% and that’s god damn serious discount. Instead of dealing with grey market seller you (or anyone else) could communicate with the official distributor to get the best deal. Most of them can offer trade-in program to upgrade used cartridge purchased from them to a brand new next model with huge discount, grey market dealers can’t do that. This is another reason to deal with the official distributor, but for me it doesn’t really matter in which country if i can manage shipping address in the same country, because they can not ship to another country where the company have another distributor (it’s fair).

If your reference price is the price from grey market dealer i don’t think it’s fair, normally they are selling prolonged storage items or overstock, not the latest models.

The reference point is the retail price in various countries, if you can save 20-30% buyin’ it from grey market dealer (but you lose all the benefits for upgrade, service, support) then it’s probably not enough, but if you can save up to 50% then you play with the devil (on your own risk). Some buyers prefer to save 50% and rebuild their cartridges with people like SoundSmith (not the original designer, not the original parts, different sound as the result), some people prefer to insure themselves and to stay with original designer (via distributor) who can change or rebuild their cart to original specs.

In my opinion it’s so stupid to buy $8k cartridge to save 30-50% from the grey market dealer if you’re not sure this cartridge is the best and exactly what you need. And if you know it, then what’s the reason to deal with grey market seller who will never be able to send it to the manufacturer for service/upgrade/retip by original designer when it time to. And it’s even more stupidity to deal with grey market dealer when official distributor can privately offer same 30% discount and all the benefits for the future.

You’re talking about EXOTIC cartridges as i can see in your post.
Exotic cartridge = exotic parts, patented and exclusively made for the manufacturer only (imo).

I’m very confident the Japanese could deal with USA buyers direct. I do that with one manufacturer now and the service is impeccable.

This is fine, but it’s an exception. Also you can tell us what manufacturer dealing directly with you or it’s a top secret ? Do you mean they are selling cartridges directly or do you mean that you can ship something to Japan for expensive service like Ikeda tonearm for rewire for example. Regarding the cartridges i'm pretty sure direct deal is possible only if there is no official distributor in your area. For example i can deal with manufacturers in USA because they do not have a distributor in my country, but if they have their own distributor in my country it will be dishonest for them to deal with a private customer in the same country where they got distributor.   

I am just curious, how do you know the grey market sellers are Chinese?

2juki is the biggest grey market dealer on ebay, he’s from Hong Kong. You don’t know this ?

chakster, I am just curious, how do you know the grey market sellers are Chinese?

You missed the IF in my post. 
I’m very confident the Japanese could deal with USA buyers direct. I do that with one manufacturer now and the service is impeccable. 

Why have two other parties (distributor/dealer) in the middle when you could work with one?

I wonder how can you work with one if they are in Japan and does not even prepared to sell to the foreigners directly? You can’t, so you need a grey market dealer (the enemy of the manufacturer) between you and the manufacturer or a legit dealer (a friend of the manufacturer) in your country. Up to you, but you can’t buy from the manufacturer even if you really want. This is it, the OP’s post is about Japanese cartridge.

They don’t need your USD in Japan, your paypal that ripping-off the sellers and can block entire account with funds because of the one complain from the cheater/customer, or your American Credit Card. Also most of them don’t even understand a word in English. How can you buy from them with warranty and service ? This is why they do have a distributor and dealer they can trust. Let's face it! 

Most audio dealers are like most car dealers or real estate agents. Completely useless and the buyer knows more than they do. Long gone are the days where an “expert” is needed to tell you about the product. Today’s audio buyer spends far more time researching than a dealer does.  If manufacturers offered buy direct I imagine 99% of the people would do that, even without the huge discount.  Why have two other parties (distributor/dealer) in the middle when you could work with one?  These dealers today aren’t maintaining store fronts or doing advertising. They send an email to someone when you want a product and that’s their “hard work”. I’ve asked dealers in the past about products they represent and they’ve never even heard it!

 @chakster  Actually what’s your problem? My prior thread...not post, has nothing to do with this thread. Read my OP again, this time without your preconceived idea.

Cartridges have in general the best profit. They raise with marketing.
No marketing, unknown und also no idea about its abilities:
$1000.00 max
When dipped in holy water: +50%
With a pic Pope listens with it: +200%

Dave, it was your previous post about your problem with the distributors and you start it again now. 

What's your problem? 

@mijostyn. Is there anywhere in my OP that I stated that this distributor is a brick and mortar dealer?

Davey, it is much more than just the cost of buying and shipping the cartridge. It is having a storefront, insurance, salespeople etc so you can waltz in, listen and make an informed decision on what you want to buy.
Having said that, it all depends on my relationship with the dealer. If we are good friends he will cut me a deal and I will be willing to pay a little extra for his services. 

I agree  with each statement chakster made . My personal
experience with Reed tonearms owner/designer Vidmantas
confirm his assumptions regarding the reasons they prefer
an importer in each (big) country. I advised direct sell to the
customers  because the intermediary get about 60 % of the
retail price. I hate them more in particular Japanese kinds.
But Vindmantas was not able to pay for advertise  and PR
for his products and also needed help from someone who
at least was capable to write in English. But as one would say
''your problem is not my problem''. Anyway I still refuse to pay
those intermediary and try to avoid them as those with infectious
diseases. The only difference beween us is that my ''limit
price'' for a carts is higher : $ 3000. 

@rsf507  Nope, But it is usually known as a 'Wallets Big'...LOL. ;0)
PM if you need more.

@daveyf can you supply a link to the forum you were referring to in your initial post?

In the modern world dealerships has been more or less ruined by the internet sales.

And it’s not only about cartridges, many high-end shops closed here, because (for example) the cables they are selling for crazy prices can be easily purchased online from any country in the world much cheaper (i did that many times). Actually any small size equipment can be purchased online cheaper than in the local high-end stores (and i did that too).

I would ask why the manufacturer doesn’t want to sell direct to the customers wolrdwide ? Think about it! Seems strange, but who will pay for advertizing in your local magazines, on the internet sites etc ? The manufacturer ? Probably too much work for the manufacturer, they would like to have a dealer who will do the job to promote stuff in his country and his bonus is wholesale prices and full support from the manufacturer.

Some manufacturers prefer direct sale and it could be much better for the customers, right ? Nelson Pass has been making amps to sell them direct to his customers for many years, but now he has a distributors too. Why?

I believe the goal of dealerships for the customers is DEMO in their showroom and warranty that none of the grey market dealer will give to their customers. But after a DEMO anyone can simply buy the same cartridge online from another country (i am pretty sure this is what you gonna do if your distributor will give you a demo). Distribution is a tough job, you may not understand how much a distributor have to buy to became a distributor (or even an authorized dealer) and it’s responsibility too (to talk with a bunch of idiots every day, to those who never buy anything but only like to bla bla bla).

The Manufacturer never ever work with grey market dealers. Manufacturers hate grey market dealers, distributors hate them too, buyers prefer to pay less on their own risk (no warranty, no support from the manufacturer, some carts are not reparable, vendors does not have an access to the parts used in exotic cartridges, those parts made exclusively for the manufacturers). If you will broke such $8k cartridge you’re done with that, you can’t get it back to work, i mean to its original condition, because of those exotic parts.

I don’t know who is fool here? But the grey market dealer definitely got his profit and will not help to the buyer, because he does not work with manufacturer (cartridge designer). Distributor looks like a looser in this situation, but a proper distributor did all the job in your country to promote the brand he’s distributing, you don’t read reviews in German or in Polish if you are in USA.

You did not learn anything since your last post about cartridges. I wonder why are you willing to pay $8k for a cartridge if you can’t even afford the service program that official distributor always offering to support his customers ? If it’s too expensive for you why don’t you just buy a $1k cartridge to save $7k on it?

If you think you can safe $1k on price difference why don’t you just buy a ticket to Japan to buy directly in the country of origins ?

I think a manufacturer really need a distributor, first of all it is language barrier, a cultural difference etc.

Only grey market dealer can sell a cartridge and stop responding after he’s got the money, you’re lucky if paypal protect you.

I don’t blame people because their price is higher, i just buy what i can buy, first of all there are a lot of used cartridges on the market that are much cheaper even compared to the grey market dealers price, but they are purchased from authorized dealers (which is better).

And finally if you’re talking about Japanese cartridges i want to remind you that Japan is not USA or Europe, 99% of the deal in Japan are in CASH ONLY. They do not accept your American credit cards even in the bars. It is completely different system, different world! Did you ever notice that ? So you want to communicate with Japanese manufacturers ? Learn Japanese first!

Or continue to deal with Chinese grey market sellers if you like.


As far as i know rich people prefer to have top notch service and they are ready to pay extra for it. I think this is the best way to buy super expensive cartridges if you’re rich. Nothing wrong with that.

P.S. For poor people like me the best deals are always for used stuff in high-end community all over the world via internet. I would love to stay away from any cartridge that cost over $2k max and i will think twice before i will buy any of them. My experience with official distributor of the very expensive cartridges was very positive in a way they build a communication, they are treated you like the best friend, but the cost of the cartridge was over $4k even with discount they can offer privately. Anyway i much prefer to deal with people who can pick up a phone, immediately reply by email, ship your order before you even paid for it, offering you special deal or even can credit you for some time... this is all about  official distributor i've been dealing with. The grey market dealer hardly can speak english, completely different experience (never again). 

So, my question is this..how much will you pay for that exotic cartridge to insure that you are buying it from a "legit" US rep

That's easy: Zero!

But then I have been doing this a long time, and been privy to the realities of wholesale/retail markups long enough to know how insanely profitable such things are. Not only cartridges by the way. Typical wholesale-retail markup is over 100%. Well over.

My Benz was bought new in a factory sealed carton from some guy in Europe, and my Koetsu was bought new in the factory box from some guy on eBay about a year ago. Whatever slim risk there is isn't worth it for a few bucks but we're talking over a grand here. Sorry. But you want that much of my money you need to do a whole lot more than try and scare me with "gray market". Gray market is BS. Its a global market. Either its all gray, or none of it is. I say none.

That's if we're talking what I'll pay for that particular peace of mind. Because the risk to me is not is it legit or not. That's simply the wrong question. DYODD you can eliminate that risk.

The proper question is, how much will you pay to be secure in the knowledge that if you do not like if for any reason, any reason at all, you can just bring it back. That means home auditions. Some guy wants a couple grand profit and has a couple solid contenders I want to hear, no problem. No problem at all. He's earned it.

But these guys that think they deserve big money like that for being nothing more than a glorified shipping expediter, they can go.... well let's just say they can go find someone a whole lot less capable. Which should not be a problem. They say there's one born every minute.

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