If it sounds good leave it alone , eventually you will come across a track that reveals something that could use a tweak. It takes time . You are obviously happy thus far which is likely due to the fact you may not actually be in depth listening. Never mind the cables and junk yet . Just listen and listen some more , try and hear what room treatments where used in the recording studio. Understand the instruments and the likely placement of the mics and how many were likely used. Your source material may not allow for this. Music sourced from your phone will sound like 2D whereas an mqa file will most definitely sound 3D . If you can at least hear that difference start with an a/b comparison to get used to the intricacies . After your system is fully evolved you will hear things that the recording studio may not have. Youll know once you come back here and start talking about Porsches and 30,000 dollar dacs you have reached the end. Just be happy and listen.
How good can it get, really? - my stereo sounds amazing!
I really love my stereo currently. I keep thinking I should be looking for the next piece to upgrade - phono stage, stereo subs, etc., but honestly not sure what to change or why I’d potentially spend more money to achieve a result that’s lesser or equal to my current sound quality. I sorta feel clueless as to how to proceed without screwing up what I have. I know it can get better but honestly I’m at a place when I just don’t know how it can. Hmmmmm.... not a bad problem I guess. Open to suggestions for sure. Thx.
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@paulgardner .... Leave well enough alone....until something gets under your skin about it. Stop reading everyone else's neurosis' about 'this' and 'that'....or what they feel is an obvious shortfall of a system in a space they've never been to, nor listened to....nor will ever, most likely. No, scratch that. They Never Will. 'Your brain is still The Boss.' Until you cede such, and allow the herd to stampede you... Dig It...until you don't. *L* (Personally, I found Super Chicken to fall short...Invader Zim was more my....style....*L* ;)...) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invader_Zim Enter The Florpus, @geoffkait It won't hurt....much....*evil laughter, fades to the crunch of...waffles?!*) |
The Cronus is a nice sounding amp. I had the same amp with the kt-120 tubes and the only thing I did was to replace the preamp tubes, change to a 4 ohm load, and got a nice power cord, which makes a big difference in any system above the Best Buy 1 box units. I sold it because it wouldn’t control the bass drivers, too loose sounding. since you are using 2 subs, this might not be a big deal. Also, since you have B&W speakers, you want a warm sounding amp. The room and speaker positioning are probably the biggest areas you should do before thinking about better equipment. Once you get the room dialed in, then any tweak or improvement you do you will realize the full potential of your purchase. BTW: cables can make a big difference especially if your equipment is of good quality |
Kinda reminds me of the Porsche 993 911 Turbo that I owned with 600HP/ 596 ft lbs torque and could do 200 mph all day, but it just wasn't fast enough for me ?! How much is too much and when do you stop?? I don't have FU money in my audio system but I couldn't get the smile off my face yesterday as I wallowed in music heaven |
Kinda the place I'm at now. I have a great (to me) system consisting of a Linn Klimax streamer, Burmester 077 two piece preamp, Burmester power conditioner, pair of Burmester 911 amps, and a pair of Wilson Alexx speakers. Looking at the Wilson XVX's now. That would cost me $240K after trade in for the Alexx's. Would they sound better? Almost certainly. But would they be worth the money? That's the dilemma! There will always be the next great component. When is enough enough?? |
So is your pre section of the Rogue totally bypassed ? If not NOS Telefunkens are fantastic . On the cheap, 1 in the middle and nos Tungsram or RCA for the other 2. You can find some nice power cords in the $100-200 range. So get a couple that have a return policy . Silnote, Anti-Cables, and Morrow all made a difference in my system . You can always return them . My $1100 power filter DID NOT CHANGE ANYTHING . But when I added a 20 amp Shunyata Venom cord to the filter , it improved the sound . But I highly recommend changing your cheap contractor duplex outlets to Hubble’s or equivalent. About $40 ea , they grip like a vise . My original duplex outlets actually had push spring contacts to connect the Romex, what a joke . Have fun , you have a very nice system . Cheers , Mike B. |
So is your pre section of the Rogue totally bypassed ? If not NOS Telefunkens are fantastic. I’m not sure if the pre in the Rogue is totally bypassed. I would assume that it is given that I’m now using the aux in to run the MS Phonomena II+ pre. The MS pre is a solid state unit that is super quiet and sounds great but I’d really love to get back to an all tube signal path. I’ve been considering either the Rogue Ares Pre or the Herron vtph-2a. They’re both roughly the same price and both get great reviews. The Herron might get a few more positive reviews than the Ares tho... hard to decide! |
Its Fantastic that you are happy with your system. Rogue Audio makes great products and has excellent customer service as well. Very friendly for Tube Rolling - NOS Siemens are also some thing to consider along with the previous suggestions of Brimar, RCA and Telefunkens - ECC83, CV4003 - Brent Jesse is a great resource to check out for those products. As a Rogue Amp owner I have found that the more power I supply them (Power Delivery - PC) the better they sound!!! You added a second Sub to your speaker set up, which I agree with (I have a pair of B2s) however you seem to feel they are a little off ? I will point out that Rel recommends the S/510, the next model up from the T9i as an appropriate match to your B&W 805s. There is a significant difference between the two models. I believe due to the frequency response of the B&Ws the T9i may just fall short of covering the range. You may already know this but the Hi Res Neutrik connection is the way to go. Rel sells them, but so does Analysis Plus and Synergistic Research. Continued Enjoyment of your System... |
You added a second Sub to your speaker set up, which I agree with (I have a pair of B2s) however you seem to feel they are a little off ? I will point out that Rel recommends the S/510, the next model up from the T9i as an appropriate match to your B&W 805s.Yes! I do feel that the low end is off! I think I’m going to upgrade to the S/510s. Thanks! |
Recently, I faced the same dilemma. I have a very good system. However, it is in my nature to always seek "better", even though by now I have taken mine beyond what most people on this forum have proposed as modest to major potential improvements to the original poster's system. For example, the concrete floor of my AV room has been sawed to be physically separated from the rest of my house, then covered with acoustical matting and finally with carpeting; my walls and ceiling are of multilayer sheet rock; acoustical paneling was placed on the walls wherever necessary to minimize undesired reflections; and the room/system itself has been tuned via Dirac Live. Not surprisingly, I have continuously upgraded my equipment (including power conditioning and cabling) for the past 15 years. Increasingly, I have become aware that (i) the law of diminishing returns is a fact and (ii) the more complex one's audio system, the more interrelated -- and therefore sensitive to even what would seem to be a very modest adjustment -- is its performance, giving rise to the prospect of unintended consequences. My final education, if I can call it that, came last month when I supposedly upgraded a power cord for the Ethernet switch in my system. The result of this was a clearly demonstrable, and significant, degradation of the magnificent sound I had been enjoying. From this experience, I now am trying to listen exclusively to the music playing -- both to its content and how it sounds and to stop trying to analyze whether the reproduction is sufficiently "life-like". This has been hard for me to do, and yet I intellectually recognize that, given my 73 year old ears, my system is already as good as I can hear. |
Damn that sounds you have an incredible set up! I doubt I’ll ever take things that far but good for you! That’s awesome. I love people who take things to the extreme. As I’ve stated I do love how my stereo sounds and I’m not really chasing a “live” performance sound, I just want it to sounds great! I feel I’m pretty good at enjoying the music and subjectively analyzing the sound quality at the same time. The sweet spot is when it sounds so damn good you forget to analyze and just enjoy. |
Keep an open mind. "EVERYTHING"- affects a systems sound! Don't get hung up on ANY "Specs"! Take the time and put the work in to hear, "What (IS) possible". As in going to "AXPONA", and other trade shows. And do NOT be that person that is- "Just Looking", at the gear. Listen to it. Ask questions... Eventually you are going to find a set-up, OR several, that simply, "Blows You Away"! Find out why. Talk to the builders. And go from there. |
For anyone interested in an explanation regarding why power cables make an audible difference, please read https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/why-power-cables-make-a-difference. Granted, the source of the information is from the founder of Shunyata Research (which is a manufacturer of power cables) so it should be taken with a grain (shaker?) of salt. However, the logic is sound and I have heard the difference myself. I too was once skeptical, but I am not anymore. The derisive argument often given (see the earlier post by nc03854) is that since the electricity has already traveled 500 miles through all sorts of nasty wire, replacing the last 3 feet with something better cannot possible fix the damage already done. The flaw in that argument is that from the AMPLIFIER's perspective the power cord is the FIRST 3 feet, not the LAST. The alternating current does not flow (like water) from the power company into your amplifier. It oscillates with the current entering and leaving your amplifier via the power cord. The power cord is basically an EXTENSION of the amplifier's transformer which can eliminate EMI/RFI before it enters the amplifier's transformer. |
If the EMI/RFI is already on the AC line, a power cord is not going to get rid of it unless it has passive elements (inductors, capacitors) to eliminate EMI .... and I would rather pay $1.00 for those than spend $1K plus to have someone put them in the cord. The last 3 feet or first 3 feet is specious since it is part of a circuit, potentially from the transformer outside your house. We can likely ignore the other 500 miles. If you are using an isolation transformer, power conditioner, etc. then it could be considered the first and last 3 feet. Where grounding is concerned, you could also consider it the first and last 3 feet. And you could call it the first 3 feet is your audio product is generating EMI and you don't want it getting into anything near. I am not sure calling it an extension of a transformer is a good idea. Should you be paying $1000+ to put an "extension" on 50+ feet of somewhat generic copper wire, that is part of magnetic circuit with limited bandwidth, hysteresis, etc? |
I am always amazed as well. Amazed quite honestly at how awful most of the rooms sound. Most of the rooms are poster children for the need for proper room acoustic treatment. I know that is harsh, but I always get a kick out of the "Best Sound" awards ... of which the number seems to grow every year. How many "best" can you have? Check out an audio show like Axpona or one of the other regional shows to see how other systems sound. I am always amazed when I go. |
You have system hardware that probably couldn't be improved enough to make the extra costs worth it. On the other hand, playing around with the listening area may not even have to cost much to bring about significant improvements. Once you know how to control the room, you can then, perhaps, profitably experiment with some hardware changes (remembering that speaker changes will require further analysis of the room). Cartridges are a good place to start--they provide a much quicker education on differences in sound than other components. If you can't hear a difference between cartridges, you probably won't hear differences between other components. Of course, cartridges interact with arms in many ways, so you may find yourself experimenting with arms, as well. Maybe it's better just to sit back and enjoy the music. |
@davegardner OP I feel the same. In all, I am very pleased with my system, in my space. My little pair of Maggies, very well integrated with a ADS sub and driven by a Cronus Mag II and meticulously set up, in a well treated room, sounds incredible. Whether standing, sitting or laying down, when listening late evenings, at moderate levels - the timber, placement and air seems just right and stays focused where it belongs - on a large stage behind and beyond the plain of the speakers Even though there are one or two things I would like to upgrade, I’m not sure that the upgrades would be worth the cost, or if it would even make an improvement ....Jim . |
I agree that you should just enjoy what you have. Having said that one thing that improved my enjoyment of my 805D3 speakers is one of the B&W subs. Namely the Db2Dwhich is stereo in one box. It includes built in frequency settings for their speakers. The integration seems just about spot to me and no need for floor standing speakers. Cheers! |
Do the experiment, take them all out of the room. Report your findings. Did that experiment decades ago....and frankly can’t be bothered to haul stuff into my listening room at your command. Was actually curious what exactly your experience was....were veils removed ?....did the sound-stage extend beyond the room?....was there a frequency specific suck-out?....was there a frequency specific glare or overhang ?....will you actually answer the question originally asked ? |
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be happy with the system you've got. I am. (OPPO brp,Schiit Vidar amp, maggie LRS speakers, B&W powered sub). If you can't resist the compulsion to spend more money, donate to the charity of your choice once in a while. You'll have a lot less explaining to do when you go to meet your maker. My entire system cost about 2500. "Audiophiles don't listen to music on their equipment,they listen to their equipment with music". |
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>>>>I see. You did the experiment, you just don’t remember the results. Here is what I see, I asked you a simple question, and you haven’t provided an answer....so you are being disingenuous, evasive, or have no clue what the change in your "experiment" produced and why. Frankly this reminds me of the little dance you do around the theme, " what is an audio signal"... and the longer these dances go on the more I’m inclined to think the answers are behind door #3....please provide some answers and prove me wrong ...please disincline me... |
taras22 >>>>I see. You did the experiment, you just don’t remember the results. Here is what I see, I asked you a simple question, and you haven’t provided an answer....so you are being disingenuous, evasive, or have no clue what the change in your "experiment" produced and why. Frankly this reminds me of the little dance you do around the theme, " what is an audio signal"... and the longer these dances go on the more I’m inclined to think the answers are behind door #3....please provide some answers and prove me wrong ...please disincline me... >>>>There’s no reason to get huffy with me. You claimed you did the experiment decades ago, as if YOU know what’s going on. You are actually the one being disingenuous. What do you mean you did the experiment? What experiment? Why did you do the experiment. What did you conclude? That’s the place to start. I’m pretty sure you don’t even know what I’m talking about, no offense to you personally. As for my question, what is the audio signal?, it’s not a little dance I do 🕺🏻- it’s a serious and legitimate question. And a question that you apparently cannot answer. |
Paulgardner, curious question, and concern. Could you be someone who no longer is a music listener, but rather, an equipment listener? I think there is hope for the music listener. The music listener can eventually arrive at a point where the goal of best (to the listener) sound reproduction, reasonably available, is achieved. The equipment listener will never know peace, and will continue down the upgrade rabbit hole until one's hearing is gone. Nothing wrong with this approach, it is an aspect of our hobby, it is just that there does not seem to be much happiness in the process. No satisfaction, just the continuous tweak show. Oh well. |
zerobias I am all right with your remarks they are right on the spot... I just want to add, that almost or at least, half of the audio system around here are already perfectly Hi-Fi potential good system...The necessity to upgrade is motivated by many reasons, but most of the times the vast majority of owners dont know what their audio system true potential are in the first place... The reasons are simple and had often NOTHING to do with the electronics components at all, except marginally... They are linked to the necessity to remedy and treat the acoustical field of the audio room, to clean and decrease the electrical noise floor of the house and of the room and after that of the audio system itself, and also the controls of negative resonances through vibrations...I will not even speak of the necessary cheap and homemade tweaks that transform completely an audio system without buying anything costly... Not knowing that and feeling the urge to upgrade tough is an illusion created by our own ignorance, entertained by strategic marketing on vulnerable customers... And also the results of science specialisation in a complex field like audio where they are too many complex variable to play with before gaining the best of an audio system without sometimes changing any electronical components .... I own the same audio system for many years now and the difference between before and after these remedies application is not least than staggering... I does not entertain now the possibility of upgrading like before, it is only a fad for me now like my wife said, and no more the necessary step toward true Hi-Fi... My system, composed of vintage or used parts components, with low cost one, amount to under 1000 thousand dollars including headphones of high quality.... And if you look at "my virtual system" photos you will smile of my "poor audiophile" philosophy...But my audio system which does not compete for sure with higher, very higher costlier one, tough, is not so far behind than many of you will think...Music is here at last and the last smile is mine... |
I think I’m still a music listener. My new music consumption has slowed over the years but I do sit down and actually listen to music or go for a walk with headphones almost every day. I have enjoyed building my hifi and I recognize the rabbit hole and am conscious of the law of diminishing returns, snake oil products, etc. I think I am very close to arriving at an endpoint in regards to upgrading equipment, at least for awhile. I love music. I have many musician clients - I design and print concert posters on the side as well for bands like Wilco, The National, Bon Iver, etc. |
