No one gets off, but some are pushed! |
I've tried or listened to just about everything from A to Z in my 30+ yrs as an audio hobbiest. For the last 4 yrs I've stuck with a couple of Dynaco CDV2's, a couple of PAS4's, a couple ST-80 tube amps and a couple ST-160 tube amps. Using some Ev Aristocrats and Marquis. I have reached my zenith in my search for the holy grail of audio. The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. No more merry-go-round for me. |
I bought some SuperAbbys w/Bailey sub, using the far-field driver, kind of put them where I thought they should go, using okay but not wacko cables, and added (sold the Pathos) a small Almarro (sold the Sophia, too), and I haven't touched anything since (4 months). I'm very pleased with the music and how I react to it, have no desire to switch out cables, reposition the speakers, or even seek more than the 4.8 watts the Almarro puts out. Everything stays where it is ... and what it is. Not going to elevate cables, islolate anything, or worry about room anomalies. Everything sounds great, no matter where I may be in the room, and I no longer have the need to question myself about this. There is so much great equipment available, and much of it doesn't cost very much. Can't have it all, nor afford to upgrade whenever doubt is allowed to surface, so it's saner to enjoy the good equipment you've got. If anything, blame the lousy CDs being sold. |
Off? This has not been possible partly because new / improved stuff comes out so fast there is always the temptation to upgrade. But to slow the m-g-r I suggest:
1) Learn to read and understand specs
A lot of stuff measures so bad there is no way I even want to audition it. And for the folks who say specs don't tell the real story? Who cares, I'm trying to get off the m-g-r and crappy specs weed out a lot of stuff quick and easy. Spec's provide some grounding to reality vs. just pure opinions of mag's paid to write this stuff, emotion, or the inconsistency of our hearing when we audition in person.
2) Go DIY
If you had the best stereo would you 1) get a life (or at least a new hobby) 2) buy more music and enjoy it 3) try to keep tweaking it.
I'm guessing a lot of people would pick #3. Face it,it's a disease with no cure. Consider people who keep tweaking and make their stereo WORSE. Man, this is just sick. So
1) to fulfill the desire to keep playing around with stereo stuff
2) A hobby vs. purchased item usually involves doing something with your own two hands vs. just flipping through catalogs looking at what to buy next (coin collecting being an obvious exception unless you want the FED's breathing down your back =:-) (I'm talking DIY money in case you missed the humor).
3) If you're going to spend hours on the internet might as well put some time to productive use and make something.
4) It takes a lot of time to DIY vs. being able to go out and put a wad of $$$ down on something based on an impulse purchase. This slows you down and gives you time to think things through. Ie: I made my first speakers nearly a year ago. I'm finally getting to my new pair now - plenty of time to think things through before starting the new ones.
5) Satisfaction.
Here is my DIY stuff:
1) Speaker cables - just simple magnet wire. High purity, "perfect surface finish", thin enamel dielectric means basically air dieletric. This is even better than Audioquest electrical battery biasing to keep the dielectric lined up.
2) Interconnects - see TWL's threads here on "build this simple interconnect".
3) Single driver speakers: buy the cabinets from partsexpress.com or pay a cabinetmaker to do the box. Then finish yourself. Or you can buy kits with multiple drivers and x-overs supplied. Mine cost me $200.
4) Amp - gainclone amps like those from www.audiosector.com or scott nixon. For $200 you get an amp like the $4,800 47 Labs Gaincard. Only about 9 components to solder for the amp itself and buy an Astron linear power supply to power it up.
When I can get such good sound for $200 just can't justify spending thousands for marginal improvements and gauranteed obsolescence in a year. |
|
How much is enough? How revealing, how transparent, how deep into the sound stage can one go and feel satisfied? How deep should the bass go, and how extended should the ultra-sonic, high frequencies go?
I know a guy with a stunning system (Avid, Aesthetix, Cary, Ruark), but he has kept on improving it. The Aesthetix Io got upgraded to the Signature Mk ‘something’ version and he went to bi-amping the Ruark Excaliburs instead of a single pair of $40k monoblocks and changed out all the cabling to upper end Nordost, etc. OK, it was the best system I'd heard--including at CES and industry demos at stores--before he did all of that.
Are audio geeks (myself included) like the wealthy: A few million dollars is not enough; once you have acquired or accomplished a certain level, you always want more?
I am still considering my downsize approach (see my earlier comment), but I have ended up upgrading my pre-amp (same manufacturer) and trading up to the latest version of my speakers since I wrote on this thread last. I did not follow through with my own goal. |
Hi Dgplo, yes i knew you were being sarcastic but so was I with my post. |
my answer was a bit of sarcasm...i love to lock myself in the room -- it is the only place i can get some privacy:) |
Dgplo, yes you can find your power cord on the merry-go-round. Congradulations on your accomplishments |
Yes ladies and gentlemen, I actually got out of audio for 4 years. It was the best thing that I ever did. No more scrounging through the latest magazine looking for the latest and greatest. No longer did I look at my depleting bank account, because I had to buy the latest and greatest. In the span of 4 years time I lowered my golf handicap into the single digits, moved into a bigger house, joined a hockey league. Then...I got married.
Now...I love my dedicated audio room. Anyone know where I can get the best bang for the buck on an power cord? |
"you can check out any time you like... but you can never leave" |
The only true cure is to go "Cold Turkey' turn off the stereo and leave it off for a period of at least ten years. Listen only to TV, table radio ( AM talk shows), and AM car radio. Eventually the stereo BUG you cought will run out of "food" it requires to survive and you'll be cured. |
The only way to escape is to ignore the audio reviewers (such as 6 moons) and their idiotic comments and do your own research. Forget ALL gear made for the home consumer and use only top grade pro and studio gear, from the top names in the sound industry. |
Are you a modernist/minimalist? The tone of your question reeks of it;) I think you are not alone and I know you can most definitely achieve the ridiculously resolved/detailed hi-fi sound with one. Go to the Manley Labs site and check the design/layout of Eve Anna's Stingray. Also, notice that it's actually a dual monoblock sharing an extremely high quality balance and volume control with totally seperate unbalanced inputs for left and right channels. |
The Shure E3 seems to me to be more efficient than other small light headphones or earbuds I've tried. I play it at around 80% of volume on the iPod and it sounds fine. However I find I don't use it often on the iPod, for two reasons:
1. I mainly use the iPod on cardio machine, where ear buds or in-the-ear phones fall out, and
2. I use standard bit rate on the iPod and the E3 is quite revealing of the limitations. With cheaper headphones and running on a cardio machine, 128 is fine.
I mostly use my E3 on the airplane to play a DVD movie or watch a DVD concert on my laptop. Awesome!
Art |
I agree with Hbarrel's post as well, very well put! I am taking a hard look at what I'm trying to do and staying with a good simple system, I must conclude as well, is the ticket to get focused on the music, not the gear. |
It is a cry for help! Donate you gear and records to a worthwhile charity and find peace. Join a Buddhist monastery and contemplate the sound of one hand clapping.
Or realize to tweak is humanly audiophile
and to kick back and just enjoy the music is divine. Cheers! |
Art,
I have the Shure e3, and an MP3 player (not apple). It isn't powerful enough to drive the e3s.
Does the ipod have more power without using an amp because I do like the sound of the Shures |
|
|
I got off the merry-go-round.
I'm fifty one and have had a better than average stereo since I was eighteen.
Speakers and amps, while they are not all created equal a person can learn to enjoy what they've got.
I've been lucky enough to have never lived in an area where the quality of the electrical signal effected the sound in any major negative manner. So I have no appreciation for high dollar power cords and have also come to realize that high dollar cabling to my ears is basically a waste of money.
Too many of us have forgotten why we bought a stereo in the first place. To enjoy the music. Which is where I'm back to after a quest that included many detours, pitfalls and poor decisions.
To answer this thread's orginator question: Put together a simple system that let's you go back to just enjoying the music. |
Something else to consider are 2 things -
1) Room acoustics - treatments
2) Dedicated power line
Without taking care of these 2 things, you may be wasting a lot of effort and money. You are not hearing the best your gears can offer.
Another thing is to experiment with silver cables - more liquid sound. You can buy silver here on the audiogon and other places, and DIY - RCA and speaker cables.
You might want also to experiment with effects unit - I had a system that sounded too dry, and when I added Yamaha Cavit 50, and added effects, the sound became liquid and transparent. I saved the system from being sold. The unit is only midfi-ish, so I wouldn't call it hifi, but it could be what your 2nd system is lacking.
The qualities necessary for me to enjoy a system is:
1) Liquid
2) Transparency
3) Accurate color
If a system has these 3, they are listenable for me.
Of-course it would be nica to have these as well.
1) Luxurius decay
2) Dynamic (300 watts would be nice)
3) Class A or A/B amp
4) Harmonically rich
5) Deep and wide soundstage
If you know specifically what you are looking for in terms of audio-lingo, then you can get there, without constantly searching and upgrading.
I hear of many stories of an audiophile, who spends as much as a luxury car, only to do more listening on a $3000 second system, on a computer for example (low jitter). The experts tell us that if we do the homework, we can assemble a satisfying systme for a lot less, and get off the merry go around. |
Cdc - I am sure you are right too - my DIY book described Q value as the spring behind a woofer - if you press on it, some feel tight, and some loose (some have more resistance) I mean by high Q, a tight strong spring. This might not be a universally agreed on audio lingo, but you get the idea, no?
On with getting off the meery go around, there was a time when I tried to captured the "live" sound - but no more. I have bought too many components chasing that rain-bow, and when I stoped to think about it, it became obvious how one system cannot do all!
Different speakers have different color to their sound, and look at the different colors many musical instruments make. Pretty soprano of female voice is again different from the mellow deep baritone. The speaker that captures the high sounds of a stradivarius (violin) sounds piercing on soprano. So don't keep pouring more and more money into this hobby - like a $70,000 turntable for instance. I am sure it's a little better than a $2000 set up, but then it still ain't the real thing...
I ended up with a few sets of speakers doing different things well, and I go back and forth depending on the music and my mood, and I seem to have cured the upgrade bug for now - but it's fun to look for new things too - I have to admit. |
Gonglee3, I thought Q was a measure of resonance of driver material -ie. metal rings and will have a high Q. Sounds like what you're talking about is suspension compliance or damping factor of the speaker. |
Wel. I have three pairs in my listening room now and it's not helping at all. In fact, it just adds to the anxiety. But if they were each permanently situated and I could just flip a switch, preferably by remote, it could work.
A non-audiophile was over the other night and we compared two pairs of speakers. One he likened to a teenage girl and the other pair he said sounded like a woman. How can you choose just one? I mean, sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes... |
Gonglee3, I think you're onto something good here with your different speakers idea.
If you take it a step further, why not just build three different systems in different rooms designed for different types of music. Ahh, wouldn't that be nice? You could even decorate them differently. Heheh. |
I came to a conclusion that since different music sound better on different speakers, we need a few sets. We can get Niles speaker selector and switch from one to another as music demands - we will our enjoy listening more of the times, and not get that upgrade itch as easily.
For instance, voice sounds better on speakers with low Q values - the spring in the woofer loaded softely - not too tightly. This gives a richer sound. Especially true for classical singers - when they sing loudly and make a sudden crescendo, it still keeps sound soft so as not to bother you - as with speakers with high Q value - hard spring loaded. This is especially true if you listen at high volume - on low enough volume, you might be able to get by without pronounced distraction.
High Q-value woofers do certain acoustic instruments well - like piano, guitar, and other string instruments, because they sound more realistic. The springy feeling one gets from the live performance is captured. However, not too many have a refined sound. Old JBL 4312 for instance have alnico woofers with high q-value, but still sounds refied - unlike many of the todays speakers with high Q-values. I like them even better than B&W top of the line series. Old Tannoys with tweeters built in at the center also sounds refined (even better than the JBL). I am talking about the Tannoy gold and not their newer plastic woofers.
If you have both, than you can switch from one to another, and get the best of the both worlds, as music dictates. But keep in mined, that no matter how much you spend on your system, it can never be completly like a live performance! Don't try to follow that dream - your bank account will thank you, and your loved ones.
However, if you have many sets of speakers at your listening pleasure, you will be satisfied more of the times, and hopefully this will solve the ever upgrade bug.
Hope you find your sonic nirvanah... |
As a counselor I just want to add one more thing. There are some audiophiles that have an intense addiction to this hobby as an alchoholic would have to a drink. One of the obvious solutions to this problem is to avoid a drink as well as other alchoholics or in this case avoid anything to do with this hobby including the discussion, buying/selling of audio gear, & other audiophiles which in some rare cases is necessary. For those of us that are not as compulsive, this is an enjoyable hobby sharing the same common denominator, the love of music. I have tried many different components all giving me a thrill but never had too much problem selling and thus, no big loss. Audiogon is meant to be a media in which audiophiles can stay connected as well as means to buy & sell. This works for most of us but there are some that have it bad. I would like to say that I love all audiophiles who are interested in this hobby but keep it real. |
Detlof, I hope that you are saying the expedition vehicle will be the last vehicle of your life. There is another way to read your last post that is, um, not so pleasant. |
Excellent words from Detlof. Admiration for an audiophile that has truely removed himself from the "merry-go-round" and has rediscovered his music, well done! We can all feel good to know that this is possible. For those members who have accomplished this same feat, the forums are still here for you to stay connected to your fellow audiophiles & friends. |
Heck, I'm touched,almost to tears...your kind words warm my heart. I truly miss your great minds and souls. I'll be back from time to time. I'm not always online, you see, going through places, where the internet cannot be reached.
I'm travelling, sold all my gear and bought myself an expedition vehicle....on another quest, counting my years, it will be the last one of my life...
Let the music always touch your souls. Signing off for now,
Detlof |
Please stick around, even if you have no interest in the gear. |
Hallo Detlof, how GOOD to see you back!!! I am .. back with the music and the means of reproduction do not matter, because the message, if it is valid, the mind, if it is receptive, will not even be aware of the medium, as poor as it may be Indeed, this is Detlof! Welcome back! |
Detlof, my gosh I haven't seen you here in ages. Welcome back!
Time to hop on and start spending again! |
Well, here I am back for once, not for the hobby, but for the people and friends I shared this hobby with for quite a number of years. Yes I dropped out, partly because of outer circumstances, but more importantly because I became more and more convinced, that my fascination with equipment overrode my love for music, which I initially thought this, my quest was all about. As time went on, I was forced to realise, that my mind got more and more entrapped by the gear and less by the message the music might have to convey. This was not merely bad, because through this, I became more aware of that musical message, which managed to get through the audiophile smog, which made me forget my system and brought me back to the beginning of what my quest had been all about. The lesson learnt was an old one and is obvious and to those, who really read these few lines, I do not need to repeat it here. I am now back with the music and the means of reproduction do not matter, because the message, if it is valid, the mind, if it is receptive, will not even be aware of the medium, as poor as it may be.
Cheers to my old friends here, I miss you, the gear abandoned strangely not.....
Detlof |
Art, That's a darn good idea. I may try that.. |
One December several years ago, I found myself with four or five of every type of component: amp, speakers, cables, preamp. Ok, just two turntables. No room for ME in my house! So I made a rule: I am not allowed to own more than two of two component categories. So if I have two amps and two pairs of speakers and I want to try a new pair of speaker cables, well, one of my other redundant components has to go.
It worked to a great extent. I can still suffer too much churn (buying a new cd player too often, for example, and yes selling the old one first), but this has not been much of a problem. Buying is easier psychologically than selling, as you probably have noticed.
My rule has made a HUGE difference, without eliminating the fun of the hobby.
Art |
Getting hung up on detail, not music will keep one constantly wanting to upgrade to improve "sound" but will this improve the "music"?
Is detail musically important? How much detail is necessary? Can overemphasis on detail draw attention away from other important problems like driver integration, even frequency balance, or ear fatigue?
When auditioning I'm in "analytical mode" and judge a stereo on analytical sound. But then I get home and want to listen for enjoyment of music which may or may not be related to the analytical reasons I got the stereo.
Also I think justifying the sound on a price basis is a road to dissatisfaction. Like saying "For $8,000 this better blow me and all my friends away". It probably won't or won't for long. Then its on to the next "fix". I think spending the money should not be a bargaining point for sound quality. Spend what you feel comfortable with, not trying to justify anything.
I have also found that when my stereo sounds good and I want to make it better, I have a 50/50 chance. That is, I have as much chance of making the sound worse as making it better. |
"Just when I think I'm out, they keep pulling me back in." |
There is no escape, it's like the Mafia, you can't quit. You can settle down for 6-12 months (in remission) but it always comes back :-) |
I went to a dedicated headphone system to cut costs. For about 1/10 the cost of my conventional system, the system suits me:
EVS modified Panasonic S47 DVD player
Meier Audio PreHead preamplifier
Etymotic Logic ER-4S earphones
Virtual Mode Clear Power 1 and 2 conditioners
Signal Cable PCs
Joe-Zen ICs
I have, however, disconnected and stored away this gear. After not having listened to it for months, I have gradually conditioned myself not to miss it. The hardest thing for me is selling good gear at an appreciable loss. That is what keeps gear around; and when gear is around, I start listening to it, then I get compulsive about upgrading.
Right now I have a ($250) PIMETA Home headamp, a set of ($20) SONY MX-500 earphones, a ($39) Signal Cable "Analogue Mini-" adaptor and some ($30) RA Design isolation cones that I listen to at work. I listen less critically at work, so this relatively modest set-up is more than adequate from 9-to-5. The key for me is to have no at-home set-up, and to do something else with my time. Right now I am signed up for correspondence graduate courses in Theology, which take up my free time at home in the evening. I'm getting a lot more out of my time this way.
Of course, I must mention that, after having admitted that I have a compulsive buying disorder when it comes to audio equipment, and feeling the distress of that kind of helplessness, I prayed quite a bit for a way out. It has taken time--about two years--to get to where I am today, but I am not as restless and consumed as before with the endless quest for more and better. Granted, I have to avoid temptations--kind of like the alcoholic refaining from the first drink, but not having the system up and running, and having a worthwhile diversion (for me, studying) helps.
If you are really serious about kicking the habit, you have to get ready to deal with the acute pain of loss and resulting feelings of self-diminuation before you see a turnaround of any lasting value.
|
Some members have suggested there needs to be a psychiatrist on Audiogon available for some audiophiles. This hobby can get insane! I say " Why suffer with insanity--Enjoy it! |
Get an Ipod Mini and Shure E3's : - )))
Art |
I'm only on the virtual merryground. Because:
1) Haven't found an improvement that is better in most ways over what I have now. There are some improvements but some drawbacks too.
2) Even if I upgrade, I still won't be satisfied and will want to upgrade more so what's they point? |
For those of you who say you get more excited about music, I would recommend internet sights like www.listen.com or www.napster.com
It's a payed sight ($25 for 3 months), but you can sample all you like - that should get you excited!
You can discover new music - even cross genres. |
With highly efficient 8 ohm speakers, I think a great sounding system is possible with integrated gear. I have 4 ohm inefficient Maggies though, and that choice strongly influences all the rest. I tried driving them with my Denon 3803, which is only rated down to 6 ohms (170 watts/ch @ 0.7 % THD). It sounded clean enough, but compressed and flat. Piano never pleased me on this system. I don't know of an integrated A/V receiver capable of providing a suberb sound with these speakers. So, I ended up getting separate amps for the mains (Adcom 5802) and center (Outlaw M200). Now the system sings to my complete satisfaction and I planned no further updates. Since my DVD plays DVD-A, however, I decided to try out the new surround music format. Surprise, next I had to buy an ICBM to manage the bass and a bunch of interconnects. Don't know where it's going to end. I'm happy now, but my system is embarrassingly complex and rational non-audio people look at me funny when they see it. I don't see how to make it simpler and sound as good. |
|
I have read only the most recent few posts to this thread, but the whole idea of down sizing seems like a good idea: fewer chassis, fewer power cords and IC's, smaller rack, etc. It's nice to see that many others are thinking along the same lines.
So that I won't feel like I am giving up much in the process, I will probably seek out a system that tends to focus the listener on musical content rather than technical realism. If that "musical meaning" thing is covered, I will probably be less likely to worry about transparency, imaging, frequency extension, etc. Hopefully, I will net some left-over cash, too.
Larger, more expensive systems don't always sounder better--or give their owners the added enjoyment commensurate with their elevated prices, other than maybe gragging rights. I'd like to try the "less is more" theory and see what happens.
Great thread. |
As a semi-pro bassplayer (my gig money buys my toys) I kept
upgrading and buying bass equipment until last year, when I
decided 8 basses was more than I needed, and figured I might buy me a Gibson Les Paul and branch out a little into guitar. I'd been an avid member of the Fender Forum, which is Audiogon's instrument counterpart, sort of. Then it hit me: I had a good electric guitar already, which
I never play, so why spend more money on instruments. That's when I thought of upgrading my ho-hum but ok stereo.
Luckily I discovered Audiogon and thanks to a lot of experienced and helpful members, I got me a very nice NAD,
Rega, B&W system for about $5000. This includes good wires and stands, but I wasn't willing to get into the electric re-wiring arena. The six months it took me to find new/used
gear at good prices was exciting, but now I don't have an
urge to buy any more. I just enjoy the music. |
I would imagine everyone gets off the merry-go-round eventually. Whatever the impetus, whether it is money, interest or time that runs out, the audio hobby equivalent of juggling ends at some point. There can be many reasons for the end of the road, but for me it came down to other priorities in my life demanding greater attention. Pulling away from the excessive/compulsive mindset this hobby can create enabled me to see what I had lost sight of.
Getting off the merry-go-round is facilitated by accepting whatever system compromises you perceive. Also, allowing yourself to enjoy what you have - not what you think you need.
I think this thread is a good one. If I am correct, responses here can continue indefinitely, as each hobbyist finds themselves getting off the merry-go-round and posting their reasons why. |
