I find that I preferred the 17D3 over the XX2 Mk. II. The 17D3 just sounded more natural in my system. Wish I had it back.
How Do Left & Right Brains Like AT ART9 vs Dynavectors 17D3, XX2, XX2mkII vs Ortofons
So I'm trying to decide on a new primary MC cart to be used with a newly acquired Technics EPA-250 arm on SP10mkII. Rest of my system is Sound Lab A3, Lamm hybrid amps, BAT line stage, Aqvox balanced phono stage. My point of reference is completely different, a now departed VPI TNT6HR, 12.7arm & van den Hul Colibri XGP. Details here: https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/133. I'll also have a Technics 205CII as a backup/alternative.
My conundrum is partially a left-brain vs. right-brain thing. When I demo gear in a store, show, or friends place often the left-brain takes control; ears pointed up, analyzing details, mind focusing on pinpoint imaging etc. & I tend to notice all the things often mentioned in reviews. Home listening sometimes is similar, especially when actively trying to evaluate the sound of a pressing, a new component or adjustment, etc. This brain drinks lots of coffee. On the other hand, my right-brain drinks cabernet or single malt. It likes the lights low. In this relaxed state, the musical side of things should take over with rhythm, pitch and cohesiveness taking precedence. It seems that when I can chill in this state I get less hifi and more musical emotion. Perhaps this side of things is the key to long term satisfaction?
I hope to choose a cartridge that retains neutral timbre & dynamic capabilities that give me goosebumps and the ability to sense the depth of body and woodiness with cello or acoustic guitar, the sound emerging from within a 3D instrument not a flat space in the soundstage. Can I get this while still having a relaxed enough sound to feed the right-brain?
When I compare items like these cartridges, part of me craves plenty of detail, a strength of my previously owned Colibri and before that ZYX Airy3B. I know the Colibri can be a bit hot and ruthless on the treble perhaps a bit etched on imaging; like High Def TV when you wish you didn't see every pore on the newscaster's face. So I am trying to get away from that. But, if I choose one of the more laid back cartridges will I be missing enough transparency and the ability to focus on one instrument in the mix when I choose?
Last night I had the privilege to demo both XX2 & ART9 in a friends' state of the art system including custom built audio room with Evolution Acoustics MM3s, Spectral electronics and a fully tricked out SL1200 with Transfi Terminator T3Pro arm with quickly switchable wands to allow cartridge A/B. XX2 is the top end or possibly over budget, so I am mentally trying to interpret it when considering 17D3 or even DV20X-L, as I don't have a chance to compare those directly. Both sounded excellent and I'm sure I could live with either, so I am probably splitting hairs. Nonetheless I'd like to get maximum satisfaction within budget and get something that makes me want to listen to "just one more album..." again & again.
So in this context, those of you who've heard more than one of the cartridges mentioned please share your experiences in terms of the strengths & weaknesses of each, especially over time for owners. I already read the threads from last year or two about the ART9. Ortofons like Jubilee, Kontrapunkt(s) are also of interest.
Cheers,
Spencer
My conundrum is partially a left-brain vs. right-brain thing. When I demo gear in a store, show, or friends place often the left-brain takes control; ears pointed up, analyzing details, mind focusing on pinpoint imaging etc. & I tend to notice all the things often mentioned in reviews. Home listening sometimes is similar, especially when actively trying to evaluate the sound of a pressing, a new component or adjustment, etc. This brain drinks lots of coffee. On the other hand, my right-brain drinks cabernet or single malt. It likes the lights low. In this relaxed state, the musical side of things should take over with rhythm, pitch and cohesiveness taking precedence. It seems that when I can chill in this state I get less hifi and more musical emotion. Perhaps this side of things is the key to long term satisfaction?
I hope to choose a cartridge that retains neutral timbre & dynamic capabilities that give me goosebumps and the ability to sense the depth of body and woodiness with cello or acoustic guitar, the sound emerging from within a 3D instrument not a flat space in the soundstage. Can I get this while still having a relaxed enough sound to feed the right-brain?
When I compare items like these cartridges, part of me craves plenty of detail, a strength of my previously owned Colibri and before that ZYX Airy3B. I know the Colibri can be a bit hot and ruthless on the treble perhaps a bit etched on imaging; like High Def TV when you wish you didn't see every pore on the newscaster's face. So I am trying to get away from that. But, if I choose one of the more laid back cartridges will I be missing enough transparency and the ability to focus on one instrument in the mix when I choose?
Last night I had the privilege to demo both XX2 & ART9 in a friends' state of the art system including custom built audio room with Evolution Acoustics MM3s, Spectral electronics and a fully tricked out SL1200 with Transfi Terminator T3Pro arm with quickly switchable wands to allow cartridge A/B. XX2 is the top end or possibly over budget, so I am mentally trying to interpret it when considering 17D3 or even DV20X-L, as I don't have a chance to compare those directly. Both sounded excellent and I'm sure I could live with either, so I am probably splitting hairs. Nonetheless I'd like to get maximum satisfaction within budget and get something that makes me want to listen to "just one more album..." again & again.
So in this context, those of you who've heard more than one of the cartridges mentioned please share your experiences in terms of the strengths & weaknesses of each, especially over time for owners. I already read the threads from last year or two about the ART9. Ortofons like Jubilee, Kontrapunkt(s) are also of interest.
Cheers,
Spencer
31 responses Add your response
Hi @sbank (Spencer), The XX2 is an interesting cartridge. I haven’t had it in my stable in quite some time, so please take these observations as but one data point. My impressions of the XX2 were of a cartridge that came from a different design team than the majority of Dynavector cartridges, with it most resembling what you read about the Te Kaitora. I should really revisit this cartridge, but my memory is of a slightly more polite, Benz-like quality in its presentation. I agree about the 17d3 being a black sheep which gets overlooked. One note about the 17D3 which may not be obvious. It has a composite body, so be gentle when you’re torquing it down. Cheers, Thom @ Galibier Design |
@thom_mackris Thanks for chiming in, Thom. Your products and your posts always fascinate. Your comment re: effective mass is interesting as my EPA-250 comes in at 14g too. A few have told me the 17D3 is a bit of the black sheep in the Dyna family perhaps a step closer to the VDH or ZYX with extra detail and less of the Dyna family rhythm. My interpretation of these comments leads me to conclude that the XX2 probably give most of the best attributes of the 17D3 and the DV20-L. With the XX2 at the top end of my budget, I decided to try a couple of vintage carts from a friend and learn from there. So I will start my SP10mkII adventures with a trio consisting of Satin 21B, Signet 111E the Technics EPC-205CII that comes with the table. It will be an interesting musical holiday season here. Cheers, Spencer |
Warning! Dynavector dealer disclaimer ... I've ignored a 17D3 I had in my stable for a while. On Saturday, I pulled it out for a demo on an Artisan tonearm (a Jelco with a Discovery Cable Plus-4 interconnect). The arm's effective mass is in the 13-14g range - a bit higher than you'd expect to work with the 17D3. Typical of Dynavectors, I found the dynamic presentation to be most realistic when tracking at the lower end of it's recommended range - 1.85 to 1.87 grams. Please don't believe Harry Pearson's recommendations of 2.5 grams for your Dynavectors. Dynavector's recommended tracking force range (1.8 to 2.2) locates the coils in the middle of the flux field, and tracking higher than this compromises the motor. I scratched my head as to why I haven't demoed with this cartridge more. It has the XV1s family sound, and doesn't give up nearly as much as you'd expect to its big brother. Cheers, Thom @ Galibier Design |
Yes, Spencer. Vinylengine uses the term output impedance; Dynavector uses the term "DC Resistance" in their specifications so you might find different wording on this spec depending on where you are looking. Most of the low output Dynas would be good as they seem to be 5 ohms. Particularly if you have the chance to audition different cartridges, it will be interesting to see how you fare with those with low internal impedance as the Aqvox, by most accounts, seems to be at its best and maximize cartridge performance with that kind of a design. That is my experience with it as well. |
Spencer-I have heard the DV Karat, and also heard and owned the 20X2/L. I have a preference for the latter. To my ears it had a weightier, and more even handed presentation. I may soon be shopping in this general price tier, and may look in to Hana or Nagaoka. These, to go in to an MM phono stage, to keep it simple. I have no experience with the XX2. Cheers -Don |
@analogluvr Thanks but I already decided to sell my Colibri so I can give something else a try after using Colibris for a number of years now. It's at VDH in the Netherlands right now for a checkup and I'll probably put on ebay.uk and ship it directly from Netherlands in a week or two. @hdm Interesting comments. I appreciate it. When you mention low internal impedance do you mean the same as when vinylengine database refers to output impedance? The Colbri's is 36ohms so perhaps I never had an ideal match with the Aqvox and some cartridge experimentation will prove fruitful. Cheers, Spencer |
Reading this thread and just have to bring up my experience with Audio-Technica. I bought the ART-9 then returned for replacement because the cantilever was not straight, the replacement ART-9 suffered from the same affliction. I then bought the AT-150ANV cartridge, when it arrived I was shocked to discover that the cantilever was missing, not loose in the box just completely missing! Being a standup retailer I was totally refunded, but as much as I still want to try an AT cartridge I am somewhat reluctant. Gary |
Spencer: As well as looking at arm/cartridge compatibility I would also seriously consider cartridge/phono stage matching with your Aqvox, particularly if you are running into the balanced inputs which I would expect you would be. I have the Aqvox as well and find that (as was reported in a number of reviews when the Aqvox first came out) that it tends to work better with MC cartridges with low internal impedances (think 3-7 ohms). Aqvox in fact recommends and sells cartridges which appear to be very closely related to the Ortofon MC 20 Super/MC 30 Super line of years ago, so many of the Ortofons (or other manufacturers' cartridges with a similarly low internal impedance) with internal impedance of around 5 ohms would probably mate very well with the Aqvox. Something to consider anyway if you have the opportunity to listen to some different cartridges. |
Honestly if I were you I would get the Colibri as it will work perfectly on your arm. Be patient and don't make any judgements or changes until you have 100hours on the cartridge. You will love it. Buy it from that gentlemen in the Netherlands that always seems to have a few for sale. That is where I got mine and it's a great deal. |
Spencer you might want to try a different arm with your colibri. I bought One brand-new and installed it on my Vpi 12 inch arm and they did not play well together. Far too much sibilance. I tried it on an et2 and a micro seiki ma 505. The best results out of those three was the micro. Then I got a SME series 3, rewired it with no joints and tried that. It was by far the best out of the four. It still wasnt great though but just needed much more time to break in. Now I can't imagine going with anything else, it is heaven. With a compliance of 35 that cartridge only really matches with arms with an affective mass of 5 g or less. |
It is not only the needle, the allignment of magnet and coil too. Here is a video from Chris Feickert’s programm. https://youtu.be/y5UGd2E9s9Q I have a turntable from him. |
Tom, thanks for the link. This approach to adjusting azimuth looks excellent, though my Fozgometer probably gets me pretty close. A frontal look via microscope at my ART9 shows (or seems to show) the stylus mounted off-axis slightly. This may account for my azimuth error (since my magnets are properly aligned), and the fact that by adjusting the arm (Graham) I can get azimuth pretty close, according to the Foz. Still off a bit, which is annoying but not a deal breaker for me, especially given the price of the ART9. It's surprising how many cartridges have similar problems. I recently had Soundsmith retip my Ortofon A90. Peter said the stylus was off 6 degrees in azimuth! And this was a pricey flagship product! Amazing. |
Bill, only at the Art9 i have seen the mismatch. At my AT33PTG there was no problem visible. Do you have a test vinyl with testtones? I can suggest you http://www.adjustplus.de/ Tom |
Thanks for this data. I don't read German but the problem seems to be with azimuth. That's interesting, as azimuth readings on my ART-9 are also off via Fosgometer. I can get the channels close through a rather extreme adjustment, and the cartridge sounds terrific, with a very wide soundstage. It does make me wonder about quality control, however. |
Small soundstage. I had a 33 PTG and an Art 9 with this problem. https://www.dropbox.com/s/k7zuhomw20d0gb3/ART9%20-%20Ergebnis%20Azimut%20-%20%C3%9Cbersprechen.jpg?d... You see the bad channel seperation on one side. A good cartridge looks like this https://www.dropbox.com/s/pfs39kzmxu0whjo/Dynavector%20XX2%20MK2%20an%20Origin%20Live%20Conqueror.jp... https://www.dropbox.com/s/c9zobpt31ym54wf/Frog%20Azimut%20an%20SMEV%20und%20RDC%20Pl%C3%A4ttchen.jpg... |
Shure, if you get a good one. I had to much AT catridges that was maladjusted. https://www.dropbox.com/s/bnfv35344o002vz/AT%20ART9%20%281%29.jpg?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/4so48ldpf8s3ey4/AT%20ART9%20%282%29.jpg?dl=0 |
Totally difficult. When only hear Jazz from the 60`s, the VdH Frog. For 80-90% of the music it is my first choice. A.J. has made it for me and it is very well built with nice channel seperation and phase identity. Some bright new recordings sound smoother with the XX2Mk2. I think it is a very the natural sounding cartridge. It is the combination of both systems on my turntable, that makes me happy. |
Hi Spencer, i had DL-160, AT33EV, AT33PTG, Nagaoka MP300, Lyra Delos, Lyra Kleos, Lyra Skala, EMT JSD6 and now on the 9" SME V a VdH Frog and on the Origin Live Conqueror 12" a Dynavector XX2Mk2 I had the same problem as you with the Colibri, with the Kleos. On a few vinyls the system is absolute great, on another it inclines to bright. The EMT JSD6 was the follower of the Kleos and ich was very happy. Not so much resolution, more reserved playback, but more vinyls that can be heard well. Then Van den Hul made me a Frog, which i mounted on a Jelco 750D. It blows the EMT on the Origin Live away. So natural sounding and a lot better resolution. On bright recordings i change to the Origin Live arm with the Dynavector. This system sounds totally warm and analog and is the perfect opponent to the Frog. I can post the Adjust+ measurements of both system, if wanted. Sorry for my bad English, i am German. |
Since you asked about the 17D3: Not only is it low mass(at 5.3g), but- also fairly high compliance(15x 10-6cm/Dyne) . That’s why it mates so well with low effective mass tone arms(under 10g), like effischer’s(and my) Magnepan Unitrac 1. Very faithful to what’s in the groove, excellent tracking, sound stage(width/height/depth), ruler flat/extended response and image size/placement. Gets the air between instruments accurately. Easy to focus on individual players. Even the rhythm section’s lowest notes, when the bass and kick are locked. A great cartridge, especially in it’s price range. As seems to be the general rule with MC carts: the better the performance, the lower the output voltage. At .3 mv, only a quiet, high-gain phono stage will suffice, set at a fairly low impedance(ie: around 100 ohms). |
I have two main cartridges I use, a Soundsmith re-tipped XX2MKII, and a Zu Denon 103R with ESCCO white sapphire cantilever/Paratrace stylus upgrade. I tend to prefer the 103R for most of my listening, it just seems to be more natural-sounding ( I won't try to elucidate with audiophile jargon, as I'm not very good at it). However, a few nights ago, I installed the XX2MKII (I use a Dynavector 501 arm, so cartridge swaps only takes a few minutes), and I was reminded how darn good the XX2 is. Neither cart disappoints. By the way, I bought my XX2 here on Audiogon, at about 1/2 price of new retail. It was purported to have only 10 hours on it, which I determined to be true, as it required normal break-in time to sound it's best. After eight years of use, it had to have a re-tip, it's now been in use in the neighborhood of ten years. So, you might consider trying a used one. If the price is right, the top re-tip at Soundsmith (around $350 when mine was done) actually made the XX2 a better sounding cartridge. It's possible you'll end up with the cartridge you want at a bargain price. It may be something you wouldn't want to risk, but it turned out to be ok for me. Best regards, Dan |
I've run the ruby-cantilevered Karat 23RS, diamond-cantilevered Karat 17D3 and now run a XX2 Mk. II. The catch with the Karats is that they have hyper-short cantilevers and don't play well with some tonearms. They are also very low mass (~5 grams), so the VTF counterweight has to travel quite far to balance then set force. My Graham Phantom couldn't do it, but my old Magnepan Unitrac had no issues. Comparing the results I get out of my XX2 to either of the Karats and several Koetsu and Ortofon carts I've demoed, I feel the XX2 has all the analytical resolution one could want and presents it entirely without coloration. When you get it set just right, then the magic comes out and you can forget about analyzing anything, because suddenly you're living the music instead of just listening to it. My 2 cents, anyway. Good luck & happy listening! |
