How do I power my 800D(3)s

I’m finally getting the 802D3’s.  Amazingly expressive and detailed!

So quite a bit a time has passed since the D3 line has come out.
What is the current consensus on 802d3 at $22k versus speakers like revel studios at $16k (Much easier to drive), or revel salon at $22?
What else do people suggest to compare these two products to at or around these price points? 

Good choice on the m600 classe.

I had the same on my 802d3 for a bit.  It's enjoyable.

i have since replaced it but I still miss it

Good to read your update - Matt

Happy Listening!

Hey guys (and girl)

I owe you all an update.  This has taken me way longer than I had imagined, so sorry for the lack of an update/s.  I am about to set up my system, after a long search and a well-planned music room project.  Very excited to bring together months of research and demos.  So this is what I have chosen to support my lovely 800d's.

I looked at Meridian, Naim, Linn, Classe and McIntosh in various specifications and combinations.  

Amps:  I lucked out and managed to get an amazing deal on a pair of Classe CT-M600's.  They are a little older but offer 600w into 8Ω.  They don't look great but will be hidden away in a cabinet.

Cables: (you guys never told me how complicated this was).  Anyway, I opted for the  Sarum T cable after talking to several manufacturers.  

Pre-Amp and Streaming:  Went for the LINN Klimax DSM after almost choosing the Meridian 818v3.

It took me forever to chose the Pre-Amp. 

I love female vocals, solo guitar, as well as big base and large orchestral performances and this combo worked really well.

Thanks for your help folks.  If you could add photo right now, I would share a very happy face.

I will update again in a few weeks

Matt

    

Check out the H-cat!
Getting awesome reviews from what I've heard.
http://www.h-cat.com

Matt, McIntosh MC601 should be on your audition list unless you 'hate' the appearance (no offense to MAC's fan base). I have heard B&W's with MAC's and they sound pretty amazing. 

Matt - As far as Classe is concerned are you looking at the CA-M600s?

Those would be a perfect match for the speakers and if you really want to do it right, a pair for each channel bi-amped would be ideal.

Greg

Hey, sorry again for the radio silence.

As discussed I have been taking my time and listening to several options in the last few months. I am narrowing it down to:

Naim
Classe (Although I am waiting for the potential new kit)
Meridian
Linn

So Far my preference for listening quality is the Naim set up, although the output per channel (on the kit within my budget) is quite low 95w. The clarity (for my ears) was definitely the best of the bunch

I still have about a month before I need to make the purchase so I am still very much in discovery mode. I am hoping to get a couple of demo systems to live with at home before I make the final decision.

Will keep posting the journey

Matt

matt_gf

give us an update?

For reference I really like the Lynn product, but it is VERY expensive

Matt

Great amp but knowing and having worked on them, NO, not for these loads that these speakers represent. Between 60hz and 1000hz especially at 70-90hz.

http://www.stereophile.com/images/616BW802fig1.jpg

Cheers George

"Here is your problem: your speakers are far too good to listen with any streaming service."

Tidal (especially the Masters) streamed through a great USB-capable DAC sounds very, very good. I encourage you to compare Tidal's sound quality to your favorite CD transport through the same DAC. You will be pleasantly surprised (as I was).

Dave

I had Classe equipment. It was really good, but I prefer what I have. Unfortunately, you can' t have it.  The company belongs to an Apollo rocket scientist who retired. If you really want to splurge and have a really good A/C system, check out James Parker's audio Research. Anything designed by John Curl or Nelson Pass is also hard to beat. If yoy want to get a great deal, look at current Bryston two channel amps and preamps. They have a transferable 25 year warranty and sound really good. Don' t go by price. Use your ears.

I wish I had your problem. The speakers you bought are argueably as good as are made. Don't listen to cry babies who say something is better. They are jealous. BTW, B&W owns Classe. That is why you se them together. I personally prefer other brands. Here is your problem: your speakers are far too good to listen with any streaming service. You need a great CD playet and amps and at least one preamp with giant power supplies. Go to B&W dealers and others to listen to their best systems. Most good dealers should let you take equipment home to test, with full refunds offered.

How did you like the classe 600 and the rotel 1590?

What's your budget? Essential to receive valuable advice.

Hey Guys 

Sorry I have been enjoying the holidays with my family so I am sorry for ignoring all of this sage advice.

I have been told that Classe are bringing out updated product in March 2017 so this could be an issue.  I wouldn't want to make a purchase and then regret it when they come out.    I have also listened to:

Naim  NAP 500's 
Lynn Klimax solo and Twin
Existing Classe CA-M600's
Rotel RB-1590

I am going to continue to explore when the kids go back to school at the beginning of January.

Will keen you posted.  For reference I really like the Lynn product, but it is VERY expensive 

Matt

Matt - I would imagine that you've probably lost interest in this thread, but in case you're still following, I wanted to add my own thoughts.

There's been some interesting discussion here, but as a N800 owner I thought it might be helpful to share my own experience.

First of all, I should note that my 800s are a previous generation, but I've heard them all and the differences between model years is very slight.

One thing that hasn't been directly addressed here is the fact that (at least in my case) there's really only one main reason why someone would buy a pair of N800s - and that is that we want to as accurately as possible replicate the exact sound that was created in the Abbey Roads mastering studios.  I auditioned many other speakers and actually preferred the sound of some others (Wilsons, for example) but at the end of the day, the goal of reproducing the sound that the mastering engineers intended was my focus.

With that in mind, you almost HAVE to power these with Classe monos if you want to achieve that goal.

However - I went in a COMPLETELY different direction after hearing at least a half dozen different amps behind these beasts and here's what I ended up doing and why:

I'm using my 800s as part of a 2CH and HT setup (with N803s as surrounds) and therefor I needed a multi-channel setup with plenty of power.

What I ended up with is a 7 Channel Class D amp from D-Sonic (Dennis Deacon's company) which is based around 7 B&O licensed ASP-1000 Ice Power units.

Each channel puts out ~1000W at 4 ohms and is stable down to 2ohms which isn't outside the realm of what the 800s can reach.

In my setup, I have each 800 bi-amped with 2 ASP-1000s per speaker.

While I loved the sound of the 800s with the Classe, the 800s being driven with this amp takes them to an entirely different level.

In particular, the instantaneous modulation that this amp provides enables you to drive the 800s at any level and the only difference that your volume control makes is simply that - It changes the SIZE of the image.  Even at levels where your ears might be bleeding, you can literally have a conversation with the person next to you in a normal voice - it's something that I couldn't say for the Classe's

Also- (sorry Bo) you will have absolute control over the size and depth of the soundstage - In fact at higher levels, the soundstage can easily exceed the room size by a large margin if you wish.

Sorry for the long-winded reply, but wanted to at least offer up another perspective.

If your goal is to reproduce what the studio engineers at Abbey Road intended, then the Classe's are your only option.

If, however, you want to drive these beasts to their fullest, have a look at the Class D option - Having listened to the 800s with this setup, I couldn't possibly consider driving them with anything else and being satisfied at this point-  In fact, I can't imagine why any 800 owner would   consider powering them with any amp that can't deliver at least 1000W at 4ohms.

My $.02

Take care and congratulations

Greg

Matt-

give us an update.  Happy Listening!

@soundsrealaudio

A preamp is a system at a high level is very important. When you would use a DAC with a volume controle you will loose a lot of stage depth and width. Beside this you will loose resolution as well. 

I played with the Meridian 800Daxv4 with an inbuild pre amp. When I bought a set of Pass Labs XA100.5 in 2009 I first connected it to the Meridian. The sound and stage was great.

But I decided to borrow a XP-20 within 2 weeks. And mannnn that makes a huge difference. The stage became wider and deeper. More dynamics and more details. What was the biggest difference was that instruments and voices became a lot more physical. 

From this moment I know that a pre amp is very important. The biggest problem in audio at this moment is the DAC.

USB but also with other ways to connect a networkplayer you loose a lot of diversity in the whole frequency range. I made the remark a few weeks ago. We went to an audio show with 30 rooms. We were with a group og people of many work in audio as well. We all agreed that all the sets had no diversity in sound.

In the week after this I spoke with clients and other people in audio. They all made the same kind of remarks.

- all the systems had no emotion.
- everything sounded dead
- We only autioned a clean sound.

When this is the level in audio you see how limited the knowledge is in audio and also in music. Without diversity there is no emotion. This way audio does not make sense at all.

Matt

No preamp! Put your money in a really good DAC !

Then you can spend more for a great amp/amps

In 2017 we will proof it with facts. And I will put the link overhere as well. Then the B&W owners may react.

People don’t like to know that they made the wrong decision, that is why they don’t like what I write. B&W is often chosen by audioblindness. Because they think it is the best and they didn’t look further.

When you would use a Pass labs set with a Lumin S1, Well Signature cables and Purist Audio Limited cables and you put the 800D3 and PL-500 against eachother ( and I will arrange an 800D3 set in 2017) it will be clear.

There is an audio shop in my country who has the 800D3 series for demo in a room what is fully acoustically adapted with Accuphase audio. The person who does Esoteric in my country was in this shop last week. He asked the owner and his son for a demo. He had the same conclussion in stage depth.

There was about 0.5m of stage depth. Even less then when he used Esoteric audio.The owners agreed that the stage was verry narrow. They also agreed that the mid freq. were not that open.

In a shooutout the truth will be proven. And again the same question: what do you want to hear?

The Truth or the thing you would like to hear?


* The truth can be hard when you have chosen the wrong decision. People don’t like to loose!

Bo has been banned from several forums, it's the same post over and over again.  He knows best and no one else.  He goes on tirades and tangents.

blah blah blah

so... OP which amp did you choose.

bo1972 If you are advocating the products you sell, then you are acting with more bias than a reviewer who is compensated by a third party media company. You will only advocate what you sell.   

So to stay on topic... Curious to know what or if there was an amp. chosen for the O.P.'s 800D3's and the results?

Matt

So here is what I am running. I use a Bricasti M1 DAC that has a very nice remote with volume control on it. I run XLR balanced out directly to my amplifiers, no need to buy a preamp. I load my music onto a Melco N1A $2000 ( Stereophile Class A ) using a $169 Buffalo BRXL-16U3 burner. I put the burner right on top of the Melco and while I listen to music I burn in new CD's highest resolution in about four minutes. Really opened my eyes as to possibilities after messing with JRiver on my Mac Book. The software is already loaded in the Melco and you control it with free software, I use Music Life loaded on my IPad. I love it. Simple and easy. USB from Melco to the Bricasti. Four Terabytes of storage with unlimited external or cloud based. 

@shadorne

accuton has a slower response and a higher level of colouration. I sold Avalon for over 6 years of time. I sold it to friends and some other friends owned them as well. Avalon also uses accuton.

When you listen to a violin with accuton drivers you get the ’mjehh’ sound. A violin has a different timbre in real. It has a more richer and less clean sound than accuton gives when you listen to a violin.

A dome tweeter does not make sense when you heard the AMT tweeter of the new Platinum series. There is not even one reason why you would want to use a dome tweeter in a highend loudspeaker.

I give you an example: I have heard different highend loudspeakers with dome tweeters who were able to create the stage far beside the speakers, but not as far even infront of the loudspeakers as the AMT tweeter of the PL-500 can do. This way the stage field becomes even bigger.

Instruments sound so much more natural in the high frequency with the Platinum series. It gives you more the feeling of an electrostatic loudspeaker. The level of authority and grip is of a level no diamond or beryllium dome tweeter can give.

What is a huge difference as well is that the AMT tweeter is also able to create a more physical tangible focus of an instrument or voice. And mann the d’appolito configuration makes voices come to a more 3 dimensional shape and makes it much more sounding as in real. Rockport loudspeakers use the d’appolito system now as well, it makes a huge difference.

With S.A.P.- measurement the stage becomes a lot deeper and wider, but still the DNA of the speakers, amps and sources are very important. When you own a system what creates a deep and wide stage, connect a 2 dimensional source and the stage depth is almost gone.

We have done many tests with sources and amps. The differences in stage depth and width are huge, These things you never read in the magazines. And they will never tell it, it will limit the sales of others.

My clients are only interested in products which are able to create a deep and wide stage. When you come from a 2 dimensional stage and went to a 3 dimensional stage. It influences your thoughts about audio completely.

I give you an example: when I give a demo, I love to send people to shops.(as many as possibe, because I want them to have a chanche to compare) Their reactions shows how big the influence is of people.

When you auditoned a  3 dimensional sound, you will never want to go back to any kind of 2 dimensional audio. This has nothing to do with taste, but is based on the human emotion. And again we can proof this by sound.

Monitor Audio has the best technique in response and also in a very low level of distortion. This you can easily hear back in the sound.

An audio magazine will never give this kind of information because it can demage the sales of others. That is why money rules audio. When audio magazines would become more objective customers can get a much higher level in quality for the money they spend.

We are not there yet, even far from this. But I believe that this is the only way audio can survive in the near future. At the end people are prepared to pay money for quality. But when you only can get an average level, the  audiomarket  will decrease a lot more.  

Many  audio reviews are paid, this way you will never get the right information about a product. In real we see and hear totally different results than the reviews.

And again.....what do you want to hear.....the truth or the thing you would like to hear?

3D sound is only possible when each part of a system is able to create it. This is why we only sell products which are able to create a stunning level in 3 dimensional stage.

The biggest limitation in audio is that most products are 2 dimensional. This counts for loudspeakers, amps and sources. 

@bo1972

thanks for the link - very interesting - measurements look extremely good. I see that Monitor have a patent on a damping nylon ring that fits between the voice coil and driver. Similar purposes no doubt to accuton rubber dots on their drivers - to dampen unwanted ringing from rigid drivers no doubt.

I woukd not be so quick as to condemn Wilson - they have been around a while and might be doing something right with their choice of drivers and things some people can hear (not everything is 3D image - many factors are important in a speaker)

I give you an example: we compared the Wilson Sasha with the Pl-200 of Monitor Audio. The Platinum could reveal information what was not obserable with the Sasha. Layers  in the low frequencies were missing, in the mid frequencies as well and also was there more information in the high frequencies with the Pl-200 II.

Read the next article. Stereophile had the gutts to compare it as well with Wilson Audio.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/monitor-audio-platinum-pl300-ii-loudspeaker#EZhdw8zA3rIifzwY.97

I have done many tests between speakers in stage depth. When you demo an acoustic song between a 2 dimensional stage and a 3 dimensional stage . Many of the people use the words; more emotional. When a voice gets a more 3 dimensional shape and there is more air around it the difference is how it influences people is huge.

Diversity in sound is the most important part in music to create emotion. So when you are able to create more diversity, you get a higher level of emotion.

When you create audio by trial and error you have no idea how the sound is being build. It will always be a big guess. The biggest limitation in audio are the acoustics. With S.A.P. we are far ahead of the rest. But this is not the only part. We can modify amp, sources and powersupplies to greate a higher level of diversity.

And again we can demo this by shootout. Audio is shootout.

In 2007-2009 I did run an audioshop. And I had a 2 dimensional system and a 3 dimensional system ready for shootout. The way people react had a big influence on me. This is the main reason why I stopped in 2009 selling 2 dimensional audio.

bo1972
"are superior in stage depth and width. They can offer a higher endresult based on the human emotion.

The thing what makes audio so easy is that each single person always will choose for the highest level of emotion a system can offer.

That is why we work by Tru-Fi, because it is based on the human emotion."

It seems to me the use of the word emotion is what Judge Judy refers to as "puffing." It’s OK for Audio Dealers and Manufacturers to use words like emotion but as far as I know there’s no way to actually measure emotion or to even ascertain whether a particular listener is capable of feeling emotion, or whether emotion in that person is elicited by music or anything else’s. It’s a bit like Kent cigarettes that were marketed to "intelligent people" or Pheasant brand wine that was marketed to "particular people." Maybe a mood ring would come in handy in listening tests. 😀

With S.A.P.- measuerement we are able to create stealth low frequency. This means that the energy is exactly were it is of the recording.

A subwoofer is in phase with the speakers and the system also locates were it stands compared to the speakers. Without S.A.P. you cannot create the stunning level of stealth low frequency.

But it even goes further than this. The system wil give you more layers in the whole frequency range. Details and layers which are not there with any highend pre amp you use. Solving the acoustic problems of a room is only 1/3 of the system. This is important, but the other parts are able to create new layers which are not possible to create with other acoustic measurement systems.

I am a perfectionist and my focus is only on those products which are the best at the moment wel live. I really don’t F. care what the name is. Our focus is only on result and quality. Audio is about creating the best possible, second best is for losers.

When you work by Tru-Fi, you focus on properties. This is the only way to use all the properties a speaker owns. When you use B&W by Tru-Fi you will miss different qualities compared to the Platinum series of Monitor Audio. I can demo this based on facts for everyone. I am even prepared to demo it.

The speed and timing of the drivers of the Platinum series are superior compared to the speed of the new 800D3 series. And again I can proof it and demo it with ease. Based on the response and the techniques of the Platinum series drivers the level of layering is bigger. When you use acoustic instruments you can hear it easily.

I can garantee for 100% that the stage depth and width of the Platinum series is a lot bigger compared to the 800D3 series. This has nothing to do with personal taste, but it is a fact you cannot change. And again I can proof it and demo it.

The AMT tweeter is superior to the outdated diamond tweeter. This is base don the fact that the AMT tweeter of the Platinum series can do each single part better than the old fashion dome tweeter of the 800D3 series. I also think this was the last time B&W used a dome tweeter in their 800 series.

It is so much more natural sounding, it can create a stage which is so much bigger than the 800 series, and the physical appearance is also of a much more realistic level.

We test each tool of all 8 parts of Tru-Fi. We test tools so we have an idea what the dna is of this part. Stage depth and witdth is an essential part of highend audio. Because it makes music more intimate and tangible.

The AMT tweeter is able to let you hear diversity in height of a level I never auditioned before. All the 800D3 demos showed us that the height of recordings were almost the same. During the demo I went to the speaker and aks the people how high the high hats were?

Everyone agreed that it was were the tweeter ends. And again this has nothing to do with personal taste. It is as it is. I understand that people with B&W loudspeakers don’t want this to read.

But again.......what do you prefer to read.......the truth of the thing you like to hear.

When you label each single part, you will know exactley all the properties of each part in your set. When each part owns a higher level in properties the endresult will become a lot higher.

That is why I only use and sell products which are superior in stage depth and width. They can offer a higher endresult based on the human emotion.

The thing what makes audio so easy is that each single person always will choose for the highest level of emotion a system can offer.

That is why we work by Tru-Fi, because it is based on the human emotion.

I will proof by sound that Tru-Fi is the highest level of emotion you can create by audio. I have proven this already to many people. In 2017 we will invite many people in audio. You will read it soon.

Because the sound always will tell the truth!

bo1972 the only thing you can pick on is stage depth? In my experience, I sold and installed high end audio for 9 years, the perceived sound stage of a system, depth, width and height, was much more a product of the environment and set up than the actual speaker design. Physics is a science that you cannot overcome, a two channel stereo system only has two point sources, they are generally set up in the same plane so as to give a balanced image to the listener. For the purpose of this conversation we will limit the comments to speakers that radiate in one direction, when you get into dipole and planar speakers it is an entirely different conversation. That being said any perception of stage depth, width or height is an illusion painted by the speaker. 

Most people are best advised to purchase a speaker for the tonal characteristics and range they can reproduce. Then, with competent professional help, get them set up properly in their room for their particular desires. Everybody has different experiences and references they use when comparing systems. For example take two audiophiles that have tickets to the same symphony, in the same hall and the same night. One has tickets in the third row of the orchestra section, the other at the rear in a balcony. What they hear and what they find critical to reproducing that live concert experience will require different home stereo systems. Consider they most likely have different home listening environments and budgets, their respective home systems will not be the same. 

Speaker manufacturers go to great lengths to insure phase and time alignment of their products so the signals from each of the individual drivers making up a speaker system arrive at the listeners ears at the same exact time. B&W designs their products to be more forgiving in the various environments they will be used, no two rooms are the same. My experience has shown me that outside of speakers that can be adjusted for the environment, like Wilson Audio, B&W are more forgiving of their environment than other brands. In regards to sound stage I have found that adequate distance from the wall behind the system is critical when tuning the system to the room. 

Regarding power amplifiers, the others on this forum are correct, B&W speakers are relieving enough that every amplifier, and I don't just mean different brands, but each model within a brand, will sound a bit different. In addition the upstream components and cabling are also factors that will influence the sound. My experience is that B&W speakers like as much power as you can give them, no matter how loud you like to listen. You can easily justify the cost of mono block power amplifiers as well as bi-amplification if you so desire. You might like the sound of two 300 watt mono amps better than a single 600 watt amp in your system. 

Please keep in mind, when dealing with high power amplifiers the electrical system in your house can be a limitation. If you live in the USA, with 120 volt service, you would a dedicated 20 or 30 amp outlet/breaker for each amplifier. Some companies even recommend 240 volt service for their larger amplifiers, e.g. Mark Levinson and McIntosh, and offer 240 volt/ 60 Hz versions for sale in the USA. there is nothing more frustrating than a few of hundred of dollars of electrical work limiting your $100,000 system.

Classe and B&W are part of the same corporate holding company, and B&W uses Classe electronics when developing their speakers. I have heard it said B&W "voiced" (like a concert piano will get fine tuned) with Classe electronics. Because of their corporate kinship Classe would certainly be a great starting point. 

I once sold 4 B&W 802S with McIntosh electronics to a well known concert pianist. He wanted a speaker in each corner of his conservatory at his house where he practiced. I can here the collective gasp form all you purists.  He wanted to achieve the illusion of being in the middle of the orchestra, just like he experienced when he was performing. that was the way he was used to hearing himself. He also had his piano "voiced" to compliment the speakers. I had a chance to hear him play with the system as accompaniment, it was an unforgettable experience.

One last piece of advice to Matt, the home listening experience is all about emotion. You should try to have your system bring back the emotional component of the experiences you are trying to recreate or simulate. Striving to reproduce music exactly as it is experienced live, particularly in acoustic performances, with different point sources for each instrument will drive you to drink, abuse drugs, and end up in a unstable emotional state like bo1972. 

Audiophile guys know Magnolia carries McIntosh CD player and Preamp and monoblock McIntosh Amps

My system is: sources: McIntosh MCD500 CD player & Marantz TT-15S1 Reference Belt Drive Turntable (Audioclear, made in Germany); Preamp: McIntosh C50; Amp: one pair of Balanced Audio Technology VK-1000; Speakers:B&W 801D (last 801 version with Diamond tweeters and 15' bass driver); cabling: CD to Preamp & Preamp to Amps: two pairs of original NBS Black Label II; true bi-wire speakers cables: two pairs: Transparent Audio ULTRA MM1 & ULTRA MM2; Power Cables: 6 NBS Black Label II ( 4 for BAT VK-1000s, 2 for CD player MCD500 & Preamp C50).
I compared multiple times with the 800D2 system of Magnolia (in BestBuy). Mine performs much supperer in every aspect! Even my VK-1000s are almost 20 years old!

Matt,

i seldom participate on the forums, but you asked about Linn.  I have a pair of 802D2s (and a matching center HTM) that I originally paired with a Mac MC303.  They sounded great -- I thought. Then I acquired a Linn Sondek (my digital side is all Meridian), and my friend told me I wasn't hearing the full potential from the 802Ds. He convinced me to trial the Linn Klimax Solos.  Game over.  I ordered 3 of them within a week. They ain't cheap -- you can find older ones with the old power supply, but get the Dynamik'ed ones. So fast, so sharp, so transparent.  It was like a bought a new set of speakers. 

So to sum up, I've run 802Ds on Mac and on Linn, and if you can afford them, get the Linns (Klimax Solos).   You won't regret it.  

I don’t think that it is bad to manufacture audio in China when you use good parts. When you start to use cheaper parts the sound and quality is different.

I just spoke a person today who uses AudioResearch, he said; that the new pre amps uses cheaper parts and he didn’t like the sound and quality either.

In my world you need better materials instead of cheaper and inferior parts. You need to give people more quality, we already have too much quantity in audio.

Bryston

No body mentioned BAT VK-1000? I have a pair of monoblock VK-1000s drive B&W 801D, they are perfectly marriaged, they sound amazing with deep soundstage!

+1 on China Crap!

We must recognize that it is the fault of us consumers too - we like cheaper products - as soon as one or two companies shut shop and fire staff and move overseas - others are forced to follow to be able to compete for consumer $ in the lowest bottom of the barrel cheapness race. China makes what the investors want. It goes on in all sectors of the market. I blame greedy corporations for tarnishing great names like Saul Marantz. The Marantz MM7025 is an example of a legendary brand name on a poorly built product.

My DAC is made in America. My speakers are entirely U K built (including the cabinets, woofer, mid range and tweeter) My power amp is also hand built in UK.  My TT is vintage Japanese from 70’s. My UHD bluray and DSP are probably made in Malaysia. Am I avoiding China - you bet!!!! Does it make a difference - you bet!!!

Excellent counter-point bo1972,

I do not (knowingly) buy any gear junk-sourced to china. Sad.

4 weeks ago we saw the new Classe line. It looked very cheap from the outside. The material they use gives it more a cheap look. It was still not possible to hear it.

This is the new ’highend’ these days. It is like the investment group who owns brands like: Sonus Faber, Mcintosh, AudioResearch and Wadia.

They want these companies to use cheaper parts so they will make more profit. B&W brought it to China to have lower costs.

What we see is that many of these brands use cheaper parts these days. I had a client with a brand new Audioresearch poweramp. In a few months he got 2 new amps. And still had the same problem. At the end he got his money back.

Poor Joey, a wife is just like audio. It sucks all your money away!!

I enjoyed my classe cam600.

honestly if I wasn't trying to free up cash, I would've kept em.

meaning if my wife didn't force me to sell them then I'd still have them.

As I am sitting here reading this string of posts, I have my newly acquired ProAc response 5 speakers (which are replacing my 20 year old response 3) all being driven by my recently purchased (about 15 months old) Classe Sigma SSP coupled with a Classe Sigma Amp 5 fed by an Aurender N100H and a Linn Sondek LP12.  My cabling is mostly vintage MIT with a Nordost USB.  I chose the Sigma because of the blend of really awesome 2 channel, coupled with great surround at a very reasonable price.  Classe chose the right places to make tradeoffs without compromising quality that they correctly deemed important for someone like me, and they absolutely nailed it.

I will be saving to purchase a pair of Classe mono block amps, but not sure if they will be Sigmas or CA-M300/600.  I will have to wait a while because either way, we are talking small car purchase...  only question is new or used! Lol.   My surround speakers are all B&W.  I bought my step son an entire system around B&W speakers which I lived with driven by the Classe for a couple weeks before delivering to him.  So I have listened to this setup with mid level B&W.  My Classé replaced a Krell KSP7b with Audible Illusions S120 stereo amp.  Many feel this preamp was one of the finer to have ever been manufactured by Krell (especially when considering its phono stage).  The AI was more than respectable but I know for a few thousand more, it could be easily bested it.  Previously, I managed a rock band where I had 4 records mastered using top of the line B&W speakers but I can't remember what the amplification consisted of.

My message is simple...  I absolutely love the Classe and when I had issues with the SSP, Classe completely stood behind their product and went above and beyond to take care of me.  Yes, there are many great sounding and excellent manufacturers and dealers that offer and stand behind their brands and products. A good dealer will let you borrow equipment, help you set it up in your home and try it. Trust your ears (not only the first seconds or hours, but days.  Trust your heart.  Buy from someone you still want to deal with in the years between major purchases and who will still support you during these "dry" years.  My guy has been Mick Survance of Quintessence Audio in Chicago area for nearly 30 years.  

People's posts tend to be highly biased because we are all both financially and emotionally vested, myself included.  Not a criticism, just an honest reality.  Classe was purchased by the B&W group 15 years ago and around 5 years ago they stopped manufacturing in Montreal and moved production to a company owned plant in China.  A lot of people are put off by this, which I guess is not unreasonable, but Apple still sells a hell of a lot of pretty high quality products... many of which I happily own but all of which are assembled in China.  All I can say is that to me, my system sounds fantastic, better than ever before... and I am absolutely thrilled with it.  Enjoy your quest.  Have fun with it.  And most importantly revel in the beauty of awesome music.  You could make much worse decisions than going with Classe, but if you decide to go that way, I expect you will be very happy as well.  Good luck!

You bought a pair of $30K speakers yet don't know what source, pre-amp and amp to match your speakers. I don't understand.

George, with al due respect to engineers, I listen with my ears not with graphs ... Just conveying my personal experiences... If you ever go to audiophile or trade show see the Wilson Audio Exhibits and ask them why they choose VTL line of tubes...For all the Wilson mediocrity they recognize good amps and choose the VTLs.... Same with Jadis,  & Mastersound... They have that certain je ne se qui that no graphs can explain....

The Nordost cables will suck the soul out of your speakers .. Try Cardas Golden Cross true bi-wire (NEVER internal bi -wire) or the new Magnans , also true bi wire (i.e two runs, or shotgun design)