Each single loudspeaker has a level of potential and owns properties. I owned the 800S and when I auditioned the 800D1 I knew I would stop with B&W.
We auditioned the 800D3 a few months ago with a 245.000 euro costing system driving the 800D3 series ( Esoteric monos, pre and source and Audiquest Well Signature cables)
3 weeks ago we auditioned the 800D3 again, now it was connected with Mcintosh 1.2KW monos, C2600 and streamer. And also Audioquest cables and Niagara 5000 conditioner.
All the 2 sets with the 800D3 had one important thing in common. The stage depth was less than 1 metre. Also the 800D1 and 800S were able to create only 1 metre of stage depth.
B&W always have been very limited in crossovers and they still are very poor in this part. When you want to speak of ’real’ highend audio you need a very deep and holographic 3D stage.
This is what ’real’ highend makes special compared to hifi. In real the properties of the 800D3 are hifi stereo parameters. This has nothing to do with personal taste. It is a property you can easily hear and understand.
Based on the fact that there are no parameters in the world of highend, we can call everything we want ’highend’
The people who buy the 800D3 think they buy ’highend’ but based on facts they buy a hifi stereo stage. This is a fact no one can change.
It doesn’t matter which amp you connect, the stage depth will still be very limited.
I have done thousands of tests in audio in over 18 years of time. Even when you connect a Pass labs, Krell, Mcintosh etc, the stage depth will be rather small compared to other speakers which can create a stunning deep and 3 dimensional stage with the same amps we are talking about.
The person who does Esoteric in my country did the demo with the Esoteric monos, pre and source togheter with B&W. They did this presentation togheter.
When they played; Miles Davis ’So What’ I went to the speakers during this song and I showed the person of Esoteric that the high hats of the recording are stucked to the loudspeaker and that the height of the high hats stops were the tweeter stops.
I also told him during the song that Miles Davis stands at the same line as the drumms and Coltrane on the left side.
I invited him to come to listen to my system with the new Monitor Audio Pl-500 about 1 month ago. I used the same songs as we auditioned during the show with the 800D3.
Now the drumms on the right side plays fully free and in front of the loudspeaker. The high hats are played at about 1.4 metres. Miles stands a lot deeper behind in the middle. You can see on the pictures of the recording that he stands behind the drumms. Also Coltrane has now a 3 dimensional shape.
Also the diversity (layering) in the whole frequency range is superior in my system. I have done a lot of research this year in diversity in sound. This is the most important part to create emotion for us humans. That is why I decided to do research in this part. We missed a lot of details on the low, mid and high freqencies with the 800D3.In all the 2 sets the level of diversity was rather low.
The blacklevel and physical image of instruments and voices is much more life like with the Pl-500. It is able to let you hear all the diversity in heights of instruments and voices. I call this part highend ++. This is a quality the 800D3 does not own. During the demos we all could hear that the instruments and voices were played at the same height.
Also the level of resolution and the reverb of the recording is superior in my system. This is how ’highend’ should be played.
The Monitor Audio Pl-500 outperforms the B&W 80D3 in all parts you judge sound for. I also sold a pair to a person with the 800D1.
It doesn’t matter what you connect to the 800D3, the stage will stay at hifi stereo level. All the demos proved it. Even the person of Esoteric agreed that it was a hifi stereo demo.
And that my system is of a totally differerent and superior level. Audio needs parameters soon. This way people can get honest and true information about the real quality and properties. |
These are facts, we are not talking about preferences. I never met a person with an expensive audio system who would like to have a less deep and wide stage.
Focus on the facts. There are many things which can be compared.
What do you want to hear: the truth or the things you would like to hear?
Audio needs to become a lot more open and honest. The bullshot stories need to stop. Or you want still want to feed them?
You have no idea how many people who spend a lot of money in audio are not happy with their system. You can spend a lot of money on the 800D3 speakers. But in real the stage will be still at a hifi stereo level.
When you spend these kinds of money you should deserve a 3 dimensional holographic stage with a physical image of voices and instruments to die for.
The focus in audio needs to be more on a level in quality instead of products and brands. Quality you find in the right properties. You will not find them in just buying brands and products. Audio does not work like that. It is a 100% fact that trial and error in audio does not work that well.
I had this discussion with many people who work in audio for a long time and also with people who spend a lot of money on audio. They all agreed that it cost a lot of money for a level what is not equal to the money they often spend. |
You want the Truth?
I dare B&W to do a shootout between their 800D3 and the Monitor Audio Pl-500?
We will make a review of it. I can garantee you that this will not happen. B&W does not want people to know that their stage is a lot less deep and wide.
What is audio?....as it should be
Audio is all about shootout and what the real properties are. Customers will get a higher level of quality when audio becomes more open and honest. |
It doesn’t matter what you connect to the 800D3, the stage will never become a deep and wide stage. I owned the best B&W loudspeakers and I know people who owned and own them.
We test each single part on properties, these properties you cannot change. It is the DNA of a brand or product.
In 2002 I auditioned a jazz concert. This was the first time that I ever audtioned a concert with a stunning level of stage depth, individual focus of instruments and voices. And also the diversity in height. And I thought; this is how an audio system should sound.
That time I owned the B&W 802N, which I replaced in 2005 by the 800S. I still had only one meter of stage depth. This started to irritate me more and more. I had the hope that the B&W 800D1 would solve this problem.
But when I audtioned them, it was still 1 metre of stage depth. That was the reason why I stopped with B&W after more than 8 years listening to their speakers.
Audio is a also a progress in knowledge and insight. I had the options to test and compare so many stuff in over 18 years of time. It is my living, but I never saw it as work. This is the thing I love most. I can compare and test all the time. In my world only the best counts, 2nd and 3th best does not add anything in my world.
3-dimensional audio has become my trademark. And the response you get from people is of a totally different level than the time I also sold 2 dimensional audio.
It has changed my perspective in audio and music a lot. It made music and audio so much more addictive than I ever had with any 2 dimensional system.
Since 2009 I only sell audio loudspeakers and components which can create a deep and wide stage. I will never go back to sell any kind of 2 dimensonal audio. That would be the time to look for another job.
The people who own a 3 dimensional system use their system so much more than they used a system in the past. This is how big the influences are when you go from 2D to 3D.
Even when you play a song wit only 1 singer and an acoustic guitar. And you compare it between a 2 dimensional system and a 3 dimensional system. The song has a totally different effect on your emotion.
When you play an acoustic song with a 3 dimensional system the singer becomes so much more intimate and tangible. The space around singers and instruments has a big influence on our emotion.
The problem is that most people have no reference frame in how music and instruments sounds in real. That is why we have ideas to use real instruments and voices to show people how small and direct they sound in real. Intimate sound is a part of our Tru-Fi what we use and want voices and instruments to sound like.
George is right that the 800D3 needs power and current to be controled and create a realistic low frequency. |
I had a client with 800D1, he owned Mark Levinson H33. It sounded dull. So I adviced him Pass Labs X600.5. They are a great match.
The Pass labs Labs X600.5 can build a very deep and wide stage. But with the DNA of the B&W the stage was still not that deep. This is a part no one can change.
B&W need new developers who are able to create better crossovers and drivers with a faster response. This is what you need to create a bigger and holographic huge stage. This will always be an essential part of highend.
I know many people with an expensive audio system who don’t take a 2 dimensional system serious either. For them as for me this has nothing to do with ’real’ highend.
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People are not able to look further, that is a fact as well.
For the money the 800D3 costs you should get a huge holographic 3D stage with all the layers in the frequencies. And it needs to be able to show you diversity in height of the instruments and voices.
But it is a fact that the 800D3 cannot create it. I am even prepared to demo it.
Who is prepared for a shootout? Who can let us hear a huge 3D stage with the 800D3? Who can let us demo that high hats are played free and high in the air?
Many people prefer to hear what they want to hear. This way they limit themselves.
Audio is not about a brand, it is all about the best quality you can get. At this moment B&W is by far not the best brand in quality. But when they will get new and better people the next generation can be a lot better.
What I said earlier; I don’t bash B&W, I don’t have anything against it. I want people to get the highest level in quality possible.
What is wrong with that?
I sold Classe for over 6 years of time. Classe is like a good meal. It tast well and there is nothing wrong with it. But when you want something extra or even more tasty Classe is not the best you can get.
Audio is all about those products which are the best in it’s class and brings all the emotion out of the music.
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I think a Pass labs X-series will be the best option. It depends how much money he wants to spend. The cheapest option for a new one is the X350.8. When he has more budget I would go for a X600.8 set.
Even with his 800D3 it will outperform the Classe amps. This is based on the fact that the level of diversity of the Pass is a lot bigger.
You can play very loud with the 800D3 with both sets. Even at low volumes you will have a powerful controlled low freq.
The mid frequencies of the Pass are more open and diverse compared to the Classe. It can make more a 3 dimensional shape of an instrument or voice. With Classe I never auditioned this level.
The Pass is also able to let you hear the difference of each sound of an instrument. When you listen to competitors it is more like a sound. It is more difficult to hear all the layers in sound of voices and instruments.
Most people have no idea what the differences are in cables when you use them with
the same speakers, amps and source. First you need to know the properties of the loudspeakers, amps and sources before you can make a choice which cable is the best option.
An Audioquest, MIT, Transparent, Nordost or Taralabs will have different properties. When you compare them they build the stage differently, the sound is different, voices and instruments will have a different size and even the blacklevel is a lot different.
The most test I did in over 18 years of time were done with cables. When you have no idea how an instrument sounds in real or how big it is in proportion, tell me how you want to choose the right cable?
When you listen to the endresult; connecting a speaker, amp, source and cables togheter. You need to understand what the properties are of the cable you use, or you will not understand why the stage and sound is what you hear.
This is why trial and error is audiogambling. It is important that you use the right properties to create the right sound and image. And that voices and instruments have a realistic proportion
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Poor Joey, a wife is just like audio. It sucks all your money away!! |
4 weeks ago we saw the new Classe line. It looked very cheap from the outside. The material they use gives it more a cheap look. It was still not possible to hear it.
This is the new ’highend’ these days. It is like the investment group who owns brands like: Sonus Faber, Mcintosh, AudioResearch and Wadia.
They want these companies to use cheaper parts so they will make more profit. B&W brought it to China to have lower costs.
What we see is that many of these brands use cheaper parts these days. I had a client with a brand new Audioresearch poweramp. In a few months he got 2 new amps. And still had the same problem. At the end he got his money back.
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I don’t think that it is bad to manufacture audio in China when you use good parts. When you start to use cheaper parts the sound and quality is different.
I just spoke a person today who uses AudioResearch, he said; that the new pre amps uses cheaper parts and he didn’t like the sound and quality either.
In my world you need better materials instead of cheaper and inferior parts. You need to give people more quality, we already have too much quantity in audio. |
Many
audio reviews are paid, this way you will never get the right information about a product. In real we see and hear totally different results than the reviews.
And again.....what do you want to hear.....the truth or the thing you would like to hear?
3D sound is only possible when each part of a system is able to create it. This is why we only sell products which are able to create a stunning level in 3 dimensional stage.
The biggest limitation in audio is that most products are 2 dimensional. This counts for loudspeakers, amps and sources.
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Monitor Audio has the best technique in response and also in a very low level of distortion. This you can easily hear back in the sound.
An audio magazine will never give this kind of information because it can demage the sales of others. That is why money rules audio. When audio magazines would become more objective customers can get a much higher level in quality for the money they spend.
We are not there yet, even far from this. But I believe that this is the only way audio can survive in the near future. At the end people are prepared to pay money for quality. But when you only can get an average level, the
audiomarket
will decrease a
lot more.
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With S.A.P.- measuerement we are able to create stealth low frequency. This means that the energy is exactly were it is of the recording.
A subwoofer is in phase with the speakers and the system also locates were it stands compared to the speakers. Without S.A.P. you cannot create the stunning level of stealth low frequency.
But it even goes further than this. The system wil give you more layers in the whole frequency range. Details and layers which are not there with any highend pre amp you use. Solving the acoustic problems of a room is only 1/3 of the system. This is important, but the other parts are able to create new layers which are not possible to create with other acoustic measurement systems.
I am a perfectionist and my focus is only on those products which are the best at the moment wel live. I really don’t F. care what the name is. Our focus is only on result and quality. Audio is about creating the best possible, second best is for losers.
When you work by Tru-Fi, you focus on properties. This is the only way to use all the properties a speaker owns. When you use B&W by Tru-Fi you will miss different qualities compared to the Platinum series of Monitor Audio. I can demo this based on facts for everyone. I am even prepared to demo it.
The speed and timing of the drivers of the Platinum series are superior compared to the speed of the new 800D3 series. And again I can proof it and demo it with ease. Based on the response and the techniques of the Platinum series drivers the level of layering is bigger. When you use acoustic instruments you can hear it easily.
I can garantee for 100% that the stage depth and width of the Platinum series is a lot bigger compared to the 800D3 series. This has nothing to do with personal taste, but it is a fact you cannot change. And again I can proof it and demo it.
The AMT tweeter is superior to the outdated diamond tweeter. This is base don the fact that the AMT tweeter of the Platinum series can do each single part better than the old fashion dome tweeter of the 800D3 series. I also think this was the last time B&W used a dome tweeter in their 800 series.
It is so much more natural sounding, it can create a stage which is so much bigger than the 800 series, and the physical appearance is also of a much more realistic level.
We test each tool of all 8 parts of Tru-Fi. We test tools so we have an idea what the dna is of this part. Stage depth and witdth is an essential part of highend audio. Because it makes music more intimate and tangible.
The AMT tweeter is able to let you hear diversity in height of a level I never auditioned before. All the 800D3 demos showed us that the height of recordings were almost the same. During the demo I went to the speaker and aks the people how high the high hats were?
Everyone agreed that it was were the tweeter ends. And again this has nothing to do with personal taste. It is as it is. I understand that people with B&W loudspeakers don’t want this to read.
But again.......what do you prefer to read.......the truth of the thing you like to hear.
When you label each single part, you will know exactley all the properties of each part in your set. When each part owns a higher level in properties the endresult will become a lot higher.
That is why I only use and sell products which are superior in stage depth and width. They can offer a higher endresult based on the human emotion.
The thing what makes audio so easy is that each single person always will choose for the highest level of emotion a system can offer.
That is why we work by Tru-Fi, because it is based on the human emotion.
I will proof by sound that Tru-Fi is the highest level of emotion you can create by audio. I have proven this already to many people. In 2017 we will invite many people in audio. You will read it soon.
Because the sound always will tell the truth! |
I give you an example: we compared the Wilson Sasha with the Pl-200 of Monitor Audio. The Platinum could reveal information what was not obserable with the Sasha. Layers
in the low frequencies were missing, in the mid frequencies as well and also was there more information in the high frequencies with the Pl-200 II. Read the next article. Stereophile had the gutts to compare it as well with Wilson Audio. http://www.stereophile.com/content/monitor-audio-platinum-pl300-ii-loudspeaker#EZhdw8zA3rIifzwY.97
I have done many tests between speakers in stage depth. When you demo an acoustic song between a 2 dimensional stage and a 3 dimensional stage . Many of the people use the words; more emotional. When a voice gets a more 3 dimensional shape and there is more air around it the difference is how it influences people is huge. Diversity in sound is the most important part in music to create emotion. So when you are able to create more diversity, you get a higher level of emotion. When you create audio by trial and error you have no idea how the sound is being build. It will always be a big guess. The biggest limitation in audio are the acoustics. With S.A.P. we are far ahead of the rest. But this is not the only part. We can modify amp, sources and powersupplies to greate a higher level of diversity. And again we can demo this by shootout. Audio is shootout. In 2007-2009 I did run an audioshop. And I had a 2 dimensional system and a 3 dimensional system ready for shootout. The way people react had a big influence on me. This is the main reason why I stopped in 2009 selling 2 dimensional audio. |
With S.A.P.- measurement the stage becomes a lot deeper and wider, but still the DNA of the speakers, amps and sources are very important. When you own a system what creates a deep and wide stage, connect a 2 dimensional source and the stage depth is almost gone.
We have done many tests with sources and amps. The differences in stage depth and width are huge, These things you never read in the magazines. And they will never tell it, it will limit the sales of others.
My clients are only interested in products which are able to create a deep and wide stage. When you come from a 2 dimensional stage and went to a 3 dimensional stage. It influences your thoughts about audio completely.
I give you an example: when I give a demo, I love to send people to shops.(as many as possibe, because I want them to have a chanche to compare) Their reactions shows how big the influence is of people.
When you auditoned a
3 dimensional sound, you will never want to go back to any kind of 2 dimensional audio. This has nothing to do with taste, but is based on the human emotion. And again we can proof this by sound.
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@shadorne
accuton has a slower response and a higher level of colouration. I sold Avalon for over 6 years of time. I sold it to friends and some other friends owned them as well. Avalon also uses accuton.
When you listen to a violin with accuton drivers you get the ’mjehh’ sound. A violin has a different timbre in real. It has a more richer and less clean sound than accuton gives when you listen to a violin.
A dome tweeter does not make sense when you heard the AMT tweeter of the new Platinum series. There is not even one reason why you would want to use a dome tweeter in a highend loudspeaker.
I give you an example: I have heard different highend loudspeakers with dome tweeters who were able to create the stage far beside the speakers, but not as far even infront of the loudspeakers as the AMT tweeter of the PL-500 can do. This way the stage field becomes even bigger.
Instruments sound so much more natural in the high frequency with the Platinum series. It gives you more the feeling of an electrostatic loudspeaker. The level of authority and grip is of a level no diamond or beryllium dome tweeter can give.
What is a huge difference as well is that the AMT tweeter is also able to create a more physical tangible focus of an instrument or voice. And mann the d’appolito configuration makes voices come to a more 3 dimensional shape and makes it much more sounding as in real. Rockport loudspeakers use the d’appolito system now as well, it makes a huge difference. |
In 2017 we will proof it with facts. And I will put the link overhere as well. Then the B&W owners may react.
People don’t like to know that they made the wrong decision, that is why they don’t like what I write. B&W is often chosen by audioblindness. Because they think it is the best and they didn’t look further.
When you would use a Pass labs set with a Lumin S1, Well Signature cables and Purist Audio Limited cables and you put the 800D3 and PL-500 against eachother ( and I will arrange an 800D3 set in 2017) it will be clear.
There is an audio shop in my country who has the 800D3 series for demo in a room what is fully acoustically adapted with Accuphase audio. The person who does Esoteric in my country was in this shop last week. He asked the owner and his son for a demo. He had the same conclussion in stage depth.
There was about 0.5m of stage depth. Even less then when he used Esoteric audio.The owners agreed that the stage was verry narrow. They also agreed that the mid freq. were not that open.
In a shooutout the truth will be proven. And again the same question: what do you want to hear?
The Truth or the thing you would like to hear?
* The truth can be hard when you have chosen the wrong decision. People don’t like to loose! |
@soundsrealaudio
A preamp is a system at a high level is very important. When you would use a DAC with a volume controle you will loose a lot of stage depth and width. Beside this you will loose resolution as well.
I played with the Meridian 800Daxv4 with an inbuild pre amp. When I bought a set of Pass Labs XA100.5 in 2009 I first connected it to the Meridian. The sound and stage was great.
But I decided to borrow a XP-20 within 2 weeks. And mannnn that makes a huge difference. The stage became wider and deeper. More dynamics and more details. What was the biggest difference was that instruments and voices became a lot more physical.
From this moment I know that a pre amp is very important. The biggest problem in audio at this moment is the DAC.
USB but also with other ways to connect a networkplayer you loose a lot of diversity in the whole frequency range. I made the remark a few weeks ago. We went to an audio show with 30 rooms. We were with a group og people of many work in audio as well. We all agreed that all the sets had no diversity in sound.
In the week after this I spoke with clients and other people in audio. They all made the same kind of remarks.
- all the systems had no emotion.
- everything sounded dead
- We only autioned a clean sound.
When this is the level in audio you see how limited the knowledge is in audio and also in music. Without diversity there is no emotion. This way audio does not make sense at all. |
