In my opinion this one the greatest improvements in audio in 40 years. AA is full of discussions about it, but there has been nothing here. Maybe that a $575 tweak is beyond Audiogoners?
"Kana813, you are right. Mr. Louis gets his basic chassis from the same source the iopshop.com gets theirs. In fact he is now selling the same base unit for $215."
Tbg- I don't know why anyone would buy this unit from George, but if you did, you could still install the Plextor 716As for less than the cost of RealityCheckCD Audiophile Grade Duplicator RCCD-AG 2.2.
I got a brand new Iomega external burner recommended by Mr.Koh for less than $20. on ebay. All I need are sources for the ingredents in RealDisc,ClearBit and the MicroTex cloth.
Tvad, some time ago you asked, "What, if anything, does the RealityCheck burner ($795) provide which the burner sold through IO Shop ($229) does not?" I suppose your "if anything" could be viewed as not suggesting what you believe. I think Mr. Louis' statement suggests your "if anything" is incorrect.
I would be very interested if you would report your findings comparing either the ioshop or the supermedia burners with copies made with the RealityCheck.
I have been frustrated by Mr. Louis' unwillingness to respond. I think his offer is indeed the only response. I say you are flat wrong that you can duplicate the performance of the RealityCheck for a fraction of the cost. Prove me wrong.
Kana813, I think his offer is to counter the claims that he merely reships the ioshop duplicator. Many, if not most, audiophiles are not prepared to install drives.
Yes, my unit has Plextor drives. I believe it burns by default at 8X
Onhwy61, perhaps a little hyperbole in my statement, but yes it elevates redbook to a level where I no longer listen to sacds, because of their lack of drive or pace, and can listen for a long time to digital without missing my vinyl. I do not like the new RealDisc, however, it is easier to use but robs the copies of their lead edge and realism.
Jfz, I will contribute Reality Check copies but obviously am not going to buy another duplicator.
I am surprised this product ever got any traction at all, but audiophiles are an eccentric bunch.
I have seen worse purchases in this hobby (How about a $500 wooden knob). Maybe the fluids do something unique. At least his product will burn CD's for you. If you think it creates a better copy-then it is worth it for you.
As always- it is your money. You can spend it as you wish.
I've been down this road with Norm many times. He spins and misrepresents other's posts all the time and when challenged he never offers any back-up.
I recently went through a similar fiasco with Norm over at AA and I kept begging him to RE-READ my words and his OWN words. The proof was there for everyone to read and Norm just kept on misrepresenting and distorting the facts when the truth was right there on the page in front of him. He just refuses to EVER substantiate his distortions of the truth.
The RealityCheck may indeed be all that it is cracked up to be and George may indeed do some proprietary work to an otherwise off-the-shelf unit, but I can tell you now your efforts to discuss anything about the RealityCheck with Norm is an exercise in futility. He will continue to "put words in your mouth" for as long as you post here.
To the board: is there any chance that you might filter out posts that are largely (or wholly) about denigrating individuals, i.e. not mainly opinions about equipment or music?
Jfz, I agree completely. Nobody will even post if they get attacked all the time. I have a friend who's ears I trust, jacytoy here on agon, who tried one of TBG's RC discs and he says they are far better than the originals. I think we should be applauding Tbg for continuing to explore all things audio, and for having the courage in the face of these attacks to post "his" results. After all it is only audio and it appears he was right for heavens sake! IMHO
Tvad. don't hold your breath. As you saw in the post I made including quotes from him, he views it as proprietary. And he offers the opportunity to hear for yourself the benefits of his copies versus those you do of your own on the less expensive duplicator.
I doubt seriously if anyone can achieve your goal of due diligence. Lawyers like to talk that way. Yes, doctorate students have to defend their hypotheses and operationalizations of them as well as the quality of their data. But what we are talking about here is a buying decision. Some will buy cheaply and forgo quality but others will go for quality.
Your argument has always hinged on the idea that technology outside audio is cheaper and equal. This is a thesis if I have ever seen one. Defend your position, sir. Were I to find equal for less, of course, I would prefer it.
I take no offense with your posts, as I don't find you as illogical and close-minded as several others here who think an argument consists of belittling. They also do not bother me as I just ignore them. But I do think you are unwarranted in what you expect of people offering products for sale.
This debate will go on and on, no one BUT George will really know. However I spoke with him on the phone yesterday (about something else) and again asked what he does to his duplicators. He would not answer, would not even say they are proprietary, is this admission of him NOT doing anything? His lawyer side showed through pretty strong, IMO. Again, I will say for the record, George let slip, to 3 of his close friends that he did NOTHING, nada, to these machines and in fact did indeed have some drop shipped. Believe this or not, this is what I've been told. George has even bought back a unit or two from those he feels would be detrimental if they had put them on Audiogon for sale. Yes I sold my own unit, soon will buy one of the "off the shelve units" and I have 2 guys within 45 minutes that still have Georges unit so we shall have a listen soon.
Tvad - I think I understand, and I certainly respect what you had to say in your post beginning "Gentlemen and ladies..." I do not see the posts as "attacks" per se, which is why I did not use that word. Nor do I "...support that which cannot, or will not, be verified". I take no position on the RC business, as I would need to hear both the RC and the cheaper duplicator results for myself, no matter what George Louis says. I agree wholeheartedly with you with regard to the value of questions and discussion. I just don't know how anyone could answer the very reasonable question "...if there is another burner containing identical Plextor drives that produces the same changes." That is, without listening to both. So far, to my knowledge, George Louis is (presumably) the only one who has done that.
I do see SOME of the posts on Audiogon to be primarily about denigrating individuals, sometimes thinly veiled, and sometimes not. In some cases, in fact, I see nothing about equipment or music in them at all. Then there are those individuals who clearly now have a pattern of being almost always negative, and/or "baiting" other people (please understand I am not talking about you! :) It appears that a couple of the recent posts which moved me to ask the question I did of the board (and were examples of what I am speaking of) have been removed, so I cannot refer you to them to read. What I said yesterday to the board had absolutely nothing at all to do with George Louis and his responsibilities.
Sksos, I for one will be very interested in what you find, but also concerned about your prior notions.
One of his friends and I are in much contact, and he says that George has many, many various hard drives with many mods lying around as well as many cleaning solutions. This might well suggest, as this guy thinks, that George has invested much R&D.
Norm, I'm not saying he hasnt invested the time and research to find the best drives possible. I am saying that the drives are "standard" drives with NO modifications. When we do the comparison, it will be with at least 2 other audiophiles, one will be a reviewer, will give an honest assessment. If Georges sound better, so be it. I have no vested interest whos sounds better.
Sksos- my experience with telephone calls and emails with George are similar to yours.
I really appreciate Norm's bring this product/issue to the forum, and thanks to folks who provided info about the hardware, CDR, etc.
If you read my posts, I saw the potential to improve the burning process with psu and other audiophile upgrades.
We can wax on about what George does or doesn't do to the stand alone burner he sells, but I think everyone can agree CD duplicators and cleaning /disc treatments have the potential to improve the sonic performance of some CDs. Like many, many other CDs tweaks, YMMV.
Steve's posting on AudioAsylum about the competitor duplicator, Cool Copy, was wrongfully removed in my opinion as he does not sell this unit.
In essence he found the Cool Copy superior to the RealityCheck. George Louis does not agree. I have ordered a Cool Copy to try myself.
This all is one of the most muddled and troubling discussions I have ever experienced. All that I know with any certainty is that cleaning and copying cds can greatly improve their sound, and I emphasize "can" as results vary.
I'm one of the referred-to past beta testers for George Louis. A major part of last year and the first 2 months of this year were spent doing endless listening and evaluating sessions of duplicators, drivers, controllers, power sources, cdrs and fluids.
I was the one that originally turned Steve onto the Cool Copy device, including the link for purchasing. It's sad that he stood accused as a self-promoting dealer when all he was doing was trying to share a product he likes that I believe many will eventually find to be the real deal (cost and performance-wise). Besides, the Cool Copy is on sale at a price below the wholesale cost... so why would Steve even bother being a dealer for it?
We have done quite a bit of testing that made it very obvious that the Cool Copy created copies that were more enjoyable to listen to than what the current RC duplicator produces. The response was 100% among all 3 of us (George's local SoCal testers).
We listened and compared on several very diverse systems. The bulk of George's listening is done primarily with headphones. We don't listen the way George does. We have our opinions and he has his. And we all benefit in the end.
Any questions re. RealityCheck or Cool Copy? BTW, the Cool Copy is fun to tweak.
Rhirsch, thanks for the post. Can you say more about the way the Cool Copy may be tweaked? Also, if you will, tell us about how you cleaned both the originals and blanks.
i have been one watching and waiting on this whole CDR burning thing.....and almost pulled the trigger a few times on RC......but it seemed a bit of a moving target.
i was at an interesting 'late night' demo at 2006 CES where some RC 'insiders' did a bit-for-bit comparison between a RC treated disc and an original and the quite knowledgable person doing the comparison said the 2 discs were not bit for bit identical; although he could not specify exactly the difference.
soooo; i had been waiting to see how this all shook out. then.............
i read the 'deleted thread' on AA the other night before it was gone. 'sk' is a very credible guy; so i ordered the Cool Copy burner and the Silver on Black Prodisc CDR's immediately that night and they are in transit.
after reading Rhirsch's post it sounds like hopefully i am on the right track here. at the price of these items it is a no-brainer.
Hey Mike... glad you waited, you're going to like the Cool Copy unit. I was one of the "Bobs" at the demo you refered to. We ended up staying there another hour after you left!
Man, I didn't think I would get very many Cool Copy responses at the Asylum, but my mailbox was stuffed with inquiries this morning. I just finished answering them, so now onto this thread.
The following is cut and pasted from my email response(s) this morning.
(1)... we found that putting the Cool Copy on footers does appear to improve the quality of the copies. The ones that work best so far are the roller bearing type. We use the Darumas as the much higher priced Symposiums seemed like overkill.
(2)... with the lid closed, you'll notice that there are 2 vertical slotted, dark tinted windows above each drive. Cover these with photo blackout or electricians tape. This keeps extraneous light from affecting the laser (ymmv... we thought we heard a difference).
(3)... plug the AC adapter into a line conditioner if you have one. Less AC noise couldn't hurt.
(4)... the black ProDisc cdr's definitely worked better than the others we tried (Memorex black, Verbatim black and blue azo and Mobilfidelity Gold). We found them at this link for $30 per 100...
http://www.shop4tech.com/item2044.html
(5)... cd treatment, the Nanotech #8500 cd spray is fantastic. It's the first treatment I've encountered that made such an audible difference you don't have to go back and forth comparing to make sure. We compared it with all of the RealityCheck sprays, both versions of Vivid, old and new Auric, Optrix and Shine Ola. You can contact Steve Klein (the only source I know of) at
http://www.soundsofsilence.com/
This should get you started... more testing this weekend... so will post more on Sunday.
Good work Kana813! And good timing. I tried to order a Cool Copy unit today from the link I posted and they're SOLD OUT! The sales guy said they've gone from selling one or two per week to 4-5 everyday the past 2 weeks! No more available until next week.
The Alesis website provided a link to several dealers in my neck of the woods (and for only $10 more, but I won't be paying for shipping).
The Cool Copy appears to be a re-badged Alesis 1 to 1.
Rhirsch, I finally got my CoolCopy. My first unit was destroyed by UPS. This one was double boxed.
I do not find the CoolCopy discs that I have done thus far to be the equal of the RealityCheck copies. In both cases I have used RC black cd-rs. I also used the Raw Copy choice on the CoolCopy. I can hear a slight difference with a somewhat smoother sound with the CoolCopy and a somewhat more realistic sound with the RealityCheck unit. From AA, it is apparent that I am not alone in preferring the RealityCheck, but I am not done with my comparisons as yet. Other cleaners, Nespaing the originals, other discs, and better isolating the CoolCopy all need to be checked. I will try Symposium Roller Blocks as you suggest even though my previous experiences with them have not been satisfying. I never do anything without plugging it into my IsoClean ac filtering setup.
I also got my Nespa. As noted above, I need to assess its benefits in all of this.
Norm - I suspect all of us with new Cool Copy units will need to break them in a bit before knowing how good they are. So far I'm much more impressed with the Nano. fluid than the cool copies and, in addition to break-in, I need to experiment more as well.
Jfz, you are probably right about breakin. I am just not accustomed to thinking about computer related equipment breaking in. We also need to focus on isolating it.
MikeLavigne - I was involved in the shootout at CES. The RC provides a real improvement, but so does my rewriting system, which I call the CD Tune-up. I am using a modified Yamaha writer that has low-jitter modified Superclock and battery power. I rip using EAC on the computer to insure a good read.
At least half of the improvement is by using the right treatment before writing the CD-R. I have tried a lot of them, and so has my partner, highdeftapetransfers.com. I have my own magic fluid now, Spectra and we both like it. The advantage is that these treatments benefit BOTH the write and the readback with these CD-R copies. I do not plan to offer modded writers like the RC and I have not added a rewriting service to my website yet, but I'm considering it. The media is extremely important and I have found that the Mitsui Audio Master is every bit as good as the black Melody disks, which vary a lot in quality, and the Mitsui's will last a LOT longer.
Another important feature of the writer is that it "stretch" or otherwise slow the writing speed in order to get well-defined pits. I write a 1X speed and my writer has a special algorithm to get well-formed pits.
As for the difference in the data, I found that the trailing info is different when using different writers and writing software. The beginnings are all the same. I conclude that the difference that you hear is the lower jitter.
I equate the magnitude of improvement to about $1K-1.5K in mods to a typical transport, so it is a really good value IMO. I performed a number of jitter demonstrations at CES that showed that the improvement was about the same magnitude as a typical digital/power/clock mod on a transport. Of course, if you mod the transport and ALSO rewrite properly treated disks, the results can be amazing, albeit not quite as good as a high-end computer-driven audio source. This will always be lowest in jitter.
The cleaner/treatment will be reviewed in the near future when I am ready to start selling it. I will be providing the reviewers multiple CD-R disks rewritten and treated with all products currently available on the market, including Spectra.
BTW - I looked at the Cool Copy. I cannot believe that you will get decent copies at 52X write speed. All of the copiers that sound good IMO use much lower speed, usually 1X.
I think the Raw Copy 8x sound better than the 52x Copy Disc. Like you I was surprised that anyone liked the 52x version but it is better than I can get at that speed on my Mac.
Be166, no the unit you show was supposedly the same as the RealityCheck unit. It looks like the cheaper Cool Copy has forced this company to further reduce the price.
I must say that the unit you show "looks like" the Reality Check, but to my knowledge no one has shown that you get identical results using the cheaper unit rather than the RealityCheck.
My own tests comparing the CoolCopy with the RealityCheck resulted in my selling the Cool Copy as inferior.
Look at the duplicator specs. There is no magic in CD duplication. More memory does make an improved copy.
The better duplicators now offer 128MB of memory compared to the Acard's 8MB. Better drives such as the Plextor 716A reduce jitter and make better copies.
George is now selling a Disc Maker duplicator with 128MB of memory and 2 Plextor 716A drives.
Meritline offers a 128MB duplicator for a very reasonable price.
All of this equipement is computer stuff-that means it goes into "old age" very quickly. George's Acard is in this category.
Over the last six months I have spent a great deal of time learning about CD duplication. It also prompted me to build 2 computers-the latest one is making killer CD copies that go far beyond what is possible with a duplicator. More to follow.
Steve, I suspect that duplication will soon be replaced by hard drives with USB2 connections.
All I know about using computers, two Macs, to make duplicates suggests that the original RealityCheck's copies sound superior, even though I made the computer copies at 4x on to quality cd-rs.
Burning on the fly results in better copies than burning from a hard drive. I have avoided the computer burn issue as it is complicated and results will vary considerably depending on hardware. The success of the computer burn is dependent on many factors. Memory type, amount, and speed of memory, power supply, drives, processor speed, etc. All of this is computer stuff. I will be addressing all of this in the near future.
Splaskin wrote: "Burning on the fly results in better copies than burning from a hard drive."
Not a valid conclusion IMO. You said yourself that it is dependent on the hardware. I have found just the opposite to be true. With an external battery-powered burner, the computer makes superior copies to anything I have heard.
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