How best to shoe horn speakers into a room

@blindjim

I feel too much of what we know of fitting speakers to a given room size comes only from experience, although this logic appears to be somewhat contentious lately.

Any so-called "logic" that doesn’t come from experience when fitting speakers to a given room size, I’d rather be without - generally speaking.

Does this “speaker to room ratio” claim, merely serve to further a mythical audio-nervosa proclamation?

I don’t believe in a schooled thought here that would more or less rigidly dictate a given speakers size to some "fitting" room ditto, whatever that means. I’ve had small 2-way stand-mounted speakers posing much bigger problems with proper room integration than large, floor standing speakers in the same mid-sized room. It mostly comes down to the bass and lower midrange character, and how the used tuning "hits" the room here. Looking out for speakers that gets the all-important upper bass to lower midrange energy right will save you loads of problems, to my experience, and help further the integration with the rest of the central to lower bass. There are other aspects to look for, as has been pointed out by others here, but I find this to be a particularly "touchy" area to get right. Indeed I’d go on to advocate for a sub (or two of them) in this regard, but that’s another subject I guess.

Where are the priorities? Distance to side walls, from the front wall, stay so far from the ceiling, maintain at least this much separation between them, ‘golden’ triangulate the speakers to the LP?

That’s very much subjective, I’d say, but to me a smooth sonic "sphere" going from one speaker over the middle to the other is vital. From here I prefer sitting on the edge of or slightly within this sonic sphere. Having the sphere too far in front of me gives the sensation of music happening "over there;" too much within it can feel slightly imposing. Mono recorded music is a nice tool for this dialing-in, as it can easily sound disjointed or too dense when the speakers aren’t placed properly. I don’t go by the "golden triangulate" as a rule, as generally here I find the speakers to be placed too far from each other (in relation to my distance from them) to give the proper, smooth center-to-the-sides fill. But obviously speakers are different, and so may be your preference compared to mine.

As the room to speaker so called ‘fit’ is deemed to be quite significant, how do you measure, adjust, determine, your present speakers would fit, or how do you go about projecting any upcoming desired speaker can, will or will not fit in the space you have for it, in advance?

Listening to the speakers in any given environment gives me an idea of their sonic signature per the above. I listened to my current speakers at their maker who had a similar-ish size and proportion room compared to my own, but apart from that I had a clear sensation of their prowess in the upper bass to lower mids, their dispersion characteristics, overall driver integration, and in this regard also a feeling of the distance I needed from them. They roll off below some 60 Hz, so that makes integration easier.

Lastly a word on "room equalization." I’ve always refrained from heavy absorbing, as I feel it kills the sound when overdone (and usually that doesn’t take much, to my ears). Diffusion is more my thing. I use a light amount of bass traps - they can really do wonders, and not only in the bass. From there I prefer natural material and regular interiors; book shelves, some other furniture, maybe some textiles on the walls to break reflections, and a cow skin on the (wooden) floor.

OP ?-As the room to speaker so called ‘fit’ is deemed to be quite significant, how do you measure, adjust, determine, your present speakers would fit, or how do you go about projecting any upcoming desired speaker can, will or will not fit in the space you have for it, in advance?    Having a basic understanding of how loudspeakers function how rooms effect such and massive hands on experience. 

If the horns are time aligned and the radiation pattern is appropriate you can put a fairly large horn in small or med rooms and use in near-field if wanted. If alignments off you need greater seating distance if radiation patterns wide you may have issues with reflections off side walls. I can run any loudspeakers I like and I still end up with massive horns in my office system. Nothing else I have used is as full and detailed at low levels nothing else is as non fatiguing for greatly extended use why I use. At this time systems a pair of community leviathans with 4x altec 515b and  giant rare community multicells with tad 2001 I also run a sub bass system. I have this systems radiation patterns matching and all time aligned for listening position I can sit as close as 5 ft rooms 13x17 the horns fit in my corners and take up little use-able floor-space less than any of my monitors on stands.

Dispersion, and bass extension are the real answers.

Speakers with more controlled dispersion are more cramp friendly, at the cost of having narrower sweet spots. ESL's, open baffle, line sources, horns all may be the type of solutions. 

Limited bass output will get you into less trouble with room modes. There are dragons in the lowest octaves, and if your sea is small, you will encounter them. 

Best, 

E

I do believe the Wilson's allow you to aim the mid and tweeter towards the listening position, no? That would negate the need to have them at ear level

@Unsound

Great point!! Thanks.

Its been so long!!! forgot that I will always get away from the ‘sweet spot’ when investigating new speakers. Walk around the room. Around them and in between them. Looking for balance and dispersion.


Usually, the first impression comes from a standing position as you enter the room and either they are turned up, or turned on. .

I usually consider: dispersion characteristics, space for driver integration, bass output. Haven’t had to consider dimensions, weight or volume output yet.

As the prices of high end speakers rise, so does their overall size, in every direction. It seems to me not every large titan like loudspeaker will have its tweeter resting right at ear level.

I have a pair of Golden Ear Triton Reference. The tweeters are essentially at ear level (41 inches) as determined by an average male height in the seated position. The T Ref overall size and shape can be very accommodating if you are wanting to place a relatively large speaker in a relatively small room.

Gdhal > I think its preferable to have to big a speaker(s) than too small.

Blindjim > thanks. You might be onto something there.

Bigger or taller than one might think is the why of this topic.

I’ve felt or at least heard and conseqnetly been subliminally trained, to think only of squeakers with tweeters which can be at ear height.

The ‘triangle’ biz is just matter of fact setup principles common to all..

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Toddverrone > I like having the tweeters close to ear height when I'm in my listening position. Too high or low throws the soundstage off, in my experience, unless the tweeters and mids can be pointed at the listener..

Blindjim > Previous setups were obliged to sit on the short wall of a 14 x 20 x 9.0 (more or less) pitched ceiling enclosed room. Going forward this could change but not immediately of course.

I bought an adjustable recliner for my LP. Made a small platform for it to rest on so at preferred position ears and tweeters were level. Adjusting the chair up or down did not seem to alter the dimensionality or soundscape, though it did alter the tonal balance noticeably. Either easing the top end extension up a tad, or bringing it into greater prominence. Imaging did not shift as I recall.

This scenario was with Silverline sonata IIIs. Overall build similar to Wilson Sophia in physical dimensions and shape.

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As the prices of high end speakers rise, so does their overall size, in every direction. It seems to me not every large titan like loudspeaker will have its tweeter resting right at ear level.

So I wonder about the significance of that ear to tweeter, tid bit being entirely accurate info.

I’d sure hate to have to stand up for all the listening sessions if a speaker was 6 feet tall or greater.

Ceiling reflections can definitely be a problem.. my main concern with speaker height, unless it's some sort of array, is that I like having the tweeters close to ear height when I'm in my listening position. Too high or low throws the soundstage off, in my experience, unless the tweeters and mids can be pointed at the listener..

Ultimately the sound will depend on the distance the speakers are placed from the front and side walls, distance each speaker is from one another and the distance from the speakers to the PLP. The best you could achieve is to try and optimize all of that and invariably some setup experimentation may be needed. Usually setting up two channel speakers in an equilateral triangle configuration to the listener is best or close to best. I think you would want to at least start from that arrangement and re-position (if needed) from there.

EDIT:

In my case I opted to go for what would probably be considered a large speaker relative to room size. I think its preferable to have to big a speaker(s) than too small. 

Stfoth > I think a lot of the conventional wisdom about towers/floorstanders overpowering a small room is overblown.

Blindjim > I hope we’ll see right here soon enough. Or at least ghet a consensus perhaps.

I know one thing, I’m learning to let go of a few nearly groundless biases which have emerged via some recent thread generations I’ve posted lately. Its bitter sweet. A little tuff finding out you’ve developed comtempt prior to investigation, but good that its become visible and consequently then enabled to let it go.

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randy-11 > don't confuse the physical size of a speaker with the acoustical size (!)

blindjim > oops. I’m confused even more with that sentence. Tisk ka se ‘acoustic size’?
thanks.
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james_w514 > One thing that surprised me when I was working in the industry is how many manufacturers are fine with putting larger speakers in smaller rooms provided they have a bare minimum distance from front and side walls.

Blindjim > thanks for the considered thoughts.
hmmm. How well do these speaker makers do on their *FOB if the buyer is not satisfied, generally speaking?
*FOB = Fetch it On Back

All kidding aside, height seems as much an issue as any other area. Beyond that is esthetics and obviously cost. Then or initially would be bass prominence.

Setting. tall units in a room with limited distance above them makes me think a third plane is now in the mix for yet more worries when fitting speakers to rooms.

The saving grace might be radiated energy from a speaker is not much on its vertical axis directly above the top of its cabinet, and thus will not inordinately account for ceiling reflections. .

However, this is pure speculation.
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As well, how about that overall weight? Wow. Half a ton each? Whoa. Even a quarter ton each. Shheesh. Above 300lbs. I’d not be reall happy about setting them up myself.

I’m assuming everyone here understands the basics of speaker placement. You need to get a speaker in room to know how it will interact. Postulating will not provide satisfactory feedback, much like reading about products vs. listening.

IMO problems are not always caused by the sheer size of a speaker. For example my current speakers are 6ft tall and 20 inches deep with 4 x 8 inch woofers for lows and rear ported on the top and bottom (room is 13 x 15 but the rear wall is open concept) Once I moved them more than 2ft out from the front wall there were no issues with bass, the sound is very balanced. Any members in BC or passing through are welcome to stop by for a demo. I’ve had smaller speakers that excite parts of the room that are simply not useable in my space regardless of placement. Room correction is a godsend in those situations. With that said certain designs simply need room, like panels and some OB speakers.

One thing that surprised me when I was working in the industry is how many manufacturers are fine with putting larger speakers in smaller rooms provided they have a bare minimum distance from front and side walls. The conversations with product designers was contradictory to what I was reading on forums. Obviously some common sense needs to be exercised when making a choice.

Having a good relationship with a dealer that allows home auditions or a web company with trial periods is the best route to follow if you want to know just how big of a speaker will work.

don't confuse the physical size of a speaker with the acoustical size (!)

for example, the acoustical size of Magneplanar's 3.7 is smaller than the 1.7 (tho the latter is smaller physically) - this is due to the different drivers used...