Thanks Joe,
I definitely trust your judgment and ears. You have three amplifiers that are highly regarded and that's why I was very interested in your direct listening experiences with them. If I weren't so happy with my Coincident Total Eclipse II speakers the Hornings would be on my very short list of speaker possibilities.
Charles, |
Charles,
In my room I have no bass issues. The bass is fast, articulate, detailed, and is perfectly balanced with the mids and treble. The clarity of the notes and the performers technical intent are excellent.
I read that Hornings perform better with higher ceilings. I can see why with all those woofers and back horn how it can cause problems in some rooms.
Comparing the Pass XA 30.8 to FW J2, both are very good amps. The 30.8 is smoother (less fine grain) and I don't know how to put it in words but, it's foundation starts from the bass on up. While the J2 starts from the upper midrange on up.
Please don't misunderstand they are both very balanced amps, just feels that way. The 30.8 has a wider and deeper soundstage. The J2 has more air on top.
I can easily live with both amps.
Once I have more hours on everything, I'll put the 30.8 back in to compare to the Frank's. The SET as of now has more presence and liveliness, which I love.
The Frank's have more then enough power to drive my speakers effortlessly.
Joe |
Joe,
I'm curious, which amplifier do you prefer regarding the Pass Labs XA 30.8 and your First Watt? I was interested in the First Watt at one time (particularly the S.I.T.) but came to the realization that the Frankenstein is going to be my permanent amplifier. As you say, it just pushed all the right buttons in my system.
Charles, |
Hi Joe,
Your comparison of the Pass XA 30.8 and Frankenstein is similar to another gon member who replaced his Pass integrated amplifier with the Frankenstein. On the other hand reviewers Jack Roberts and Srajan Ebean chose the XA30.8 over their former 300b SET amplifiers. Once again demonstrating the obvious subjective nature of it all. I think that the Pass amplifiers sound good but I'd prefer a high quality SET just as you do. I'm glad you were able to compare both fine amplifiers in your system, there's no better way.
I listened to the Eufrodite driven by the New Audio Frontiers 845 SET amplifier at Axpona this weekend. The speakers had upper bass emphasis /hump that could be room interactions. Overall this speaker is very good IMO. Tone and timbre as well as dynamics and musical pace /flow were exceptionally good. The presentation is live like and involving.
I can see the Frankenstein and Eufrodite being a wonderful match just as you describe. Congratulations Joe.
Charles, |
I have the new Horning Eufrodite Ellipse mated with the Frankenstein 300b mk.2 amps and the pairing is fantastic. The Frank's drive the speakers with no problem in my pretty large room.
I also have a Pass Labs XA 30.8 amp which sounds nice but, the SET sounds much better!
Really enjoying the sound, pushes all my listening preferences buttons!
It should only get better with more break-in on the new speakers, cabling, Dac, and transport. |
charles1:
Have a great time at the Chicago Audio Show this coming weekend.
I hope you get a chance to hear the Synergistic Research Room Demonstrations. The new room treatment UEF panels will be demonstrated for the first time at this show. It will be interesting if you see any Elrog tubes being used, or for that matter any of the other premium tube brands.
David Pritchard |
I'll pass your greetings along to Jeff.
Charles, |
Hi Charles,
What you'll hear at the show is probably the Elipse version with the latest bass drivers.
I have the previous version.
Assuming Jeff will be in charge, please give him regards from Oren, aka Mark, from Paris... I'm sure that'll bring a smile to his face, and a good story to be told.
Would be interested to hear your impressions after the show...
I heard about the Franks from a couple of guys who are as well pure music lovers that spoke very highly of their emotional capabilities.
The only way to know how they perform in my setup is to have them here...
Regards. |
Hello Amuseb1,
Thanks for your informative reply, I really understand and relate to what you are expressing. I believe that the most important and precious attributes of audio components is to allow engagement and connection with our music. If the emotional involvement is lacking then all other sonic parameters no matter how impressive (bass,high volume, imaging etc.) are irrelevant and inadequate. It seems the Tektron certainly fulfills and meets these vital requirements.
Regarding the Frankenstein MK II, it is a wonderful 300b SET amplifier. I haven't any idea if it is superior to your Tektron. I can only tell you that it excels at emotional engagement and communicating the soul and joy of music.
Regarding your Horning speakers I'll finally be able to hear them next week at an audio show in Chicago. I'm been curious to listen to this speaker for quite some time.
Charles, |
Thanks Charles,
Sati is still here; it works fine and has of course more power than the little Tektrons but to my ears the tiny monos are faster, have more grunt, better dentition, better holographic presentation, less bass but one that doesn’t leave you wishing for more, more sparkle on the highs, much more texture on cords and such and what is very important to me, it plays stress less music that fils the room oh so gently so that even in really low volume levels the music just pulls you in.
Amps I’ve tried here with the Eufros: Spectral, Plinius SA103, ML 23.5, Lamm 2.1 (for a short session which was disappointing but hard to judge as was a mere afternoon).
All the above beast list didn’t make the Eufros sing to my ears as the Tektron do.
And I’m not sure they’re even burnt in and surly the Kondo cable isn’t.
It’s maybe fair to mention that in my living/listening room I’ve struggled a lot with bass overload of the Eufros, which could be causing many other issues with the Sati (and the other bass strong amps on the list) setup due to it’s abundance in this area and could be that the lighter on bass Tektron just solves it all by not going there; but again, there’s more than enough of it with it.
For me, the realization that we can make a system sing with so little power, so little electricity consumption, so little heat, so small budget, so little real estate, etc is an inspirational revelation.
So in love with 300b power, I’m contemplating on making a move on a pair o Franks MK2 which are said to be another hifi miracle, aren’t they?
Enjoy the last day of the Masters. |
By the way how did your former Sati 520b amp compare to the current 300b SET? I know you also used a Spectral amplifier at one timewith these speakers.
Charles, |
Amuseb1,
That sounds like a wonderful system you've put together. No doubt that it performs as beautifully as you describe. Your amplifier is another example of quality over quantity of power when matched with the right speakers. Congratulations to.
Charles, |
Bringing this thread back to life?
By a mere coincidence, I got on loan a pair of 300b monos from Tektron, a one man show outfit from Sicily. By all means in hi-fi terms, not an expensive amp.
The experience is beguiling.
Something like 7 watts output and half the size of any other amp I’ve tried here makes the finest music I’ve heard here, or maybe anywhere.
I’ve never considered myself a savvy audiophile, don’t know all the words to describe micro dynamics or such, but the music I hear from this setup is mesmerizing.
Current setup: AA La Fontaine to Nordost Valhalla to Tektron 300b monos to Kondo SPz to Eufrodites.
That’s all.
|
Charles1dad, ya I must have gotten your system mixed up with someone else's - thx for the clarification.
How much heat do your Franks throw off |
Dev,
I use the Coincident Frankenstein 300b SET and their DHT Line Stage.I have had these two components and the Coincident
speakers for nearly 6 years and just love them.
Charles, |
Now we have the newly released version with the 16 brand new bass drivers that Tommy has been working of for some time, Tommy is very happy and said the results have been his long time dream.
Adding Tommy said these new drivers are "HEAVEN" and provides a substantial improvement from top to bottom including warmth and speed, provides the system with a much greater overall linearity.
Interesting indeed and he is currently working on his Statement Sati which should be released some time in the new future.
Charles1dad what does your current system consist of,you now use Tron amplification correct - ya the info I provided about push-pull was an actual reply I received from Tommy but in the end it's all really subjective. |
They are really nice speakers. I wonder how my old ones compare to the new model with the curved cabinets. |
Well, that makes sense to me. I for one certainly don't need to be sold on the advantages and benefits of high-quality SET amplification. I'm hooked for life.
Thanks,
Charles, |
Take these factors into account:
High sensitivity.
No crossover in the Eufrodite.
Complex internal horn structure takes impulse from all 10 drivers in the case of the Eufrodite.
What this means is that they should be used with the same type of amp used in their design and voicing (high quality SET, I believe). |
If the impedance curve is relatively flat that certainly is an asset. Generally speaking S ET amplifiers like to see a higher speaker ohm impedance. Driven very successfully with 3 watt amplifiers does attest to its easy to drive capabilities. |
I believe the impedance does vary by specific model, also, I'm pretty sure the impedance of my Eufrodites are rated at 6ohm nominal (and is at least reasonably flat). It also produces pretty impressive SPL when placed close to the front wall and powered by a 3 watt 2a3 SET (Wright 3.5 mono). So, while most 'back horns' are clearly not in the same efficiency/sensitivity ballpark as the most efficient front horns, these speakers can work well with 2a3, and even 45 SET amps- at least, in less-than-huge rooms, or for less than floor shaking volume levels. Room placement and reflecting some of the midrange and bass off of the front wall seems to be the key to both proper tonal balance, and maximum efficiency. At least that's my experience here. Hope this helps. |
Dev,
That's interesting because the Horning speakers are a 4 ohm load. Seemingly more towards push pull friendly than most SETs.
Charles, |
I have been reading the above posts and F.Y.I. Tommy Horning said he never designed his speakers to be powered by push pull amps! |
I have the Sati.
It's now back in Denmark for service so I'm running a couple of classic ss amps like the spectral 150 and ML 23.5.
They all work fine though I'm still struggling with some room acoustics that drive the bass all over the place. There's another thread discussing it.
Think though I've made some progress with it now.
Also, though I get great life, dynamics, height and width of the scene, I don't get that much layering and depth. Not sure why.
Regards. |
Yes its a good match. I find that 10 watts SET delivers high volume in a large open living room with preamp volume knob at 12:00. No real need for anything more than 10 tube watts with these speakers. |
Yes, but a little more power... |
Psag,
I can certainly believe that's a beautiful sounding match. |
I use Wavac ec300B- very nice. |
It's been a while here...
Has anyone had any more discoveries on driving them Horning Eufrodites?
Thanks. |
Hi Joe, I understand your empirical position as being real, but I would not regard it as universal by any means with regards to OTLs and rear-loaded horns. It simply means that the amp you used sounded the way it did with that speaker, and it does not follow that that is true of all OTLs on the same speaker. IOW it may be that your experience was real, but that it may well have been possible to make that OTL work better by playing with other variables- speaker cables and power cords come to mind- OTLs usually don't like long speaker cables and can be quite sensitive to cable design! BTW most OTLs other than ours use a lot of loop feedback, which can cause them to sound thin on a speaker that is built with low or zero feedback speakers in mind. see http://www.atma-sphere.com/Resources/Paradigms_in_Amplifier_Design.php for more information. |
Ralph, I think it comes down to what I relayed Bud being adamant about - a backloaded horn (BLH) and true TL are the converse of one another.
I believe your seminal work was done with a pair of Frieds, yes? The Frieds couple magically with the Atma Spheres. Even the current four ohm versions. In fact, the low impedance does not at all present the expected difficulty you see in more typical loudspeaker offerings. Bud was never surprised at this, and chalked it up to his raison d'etre - the resistive, not reactive loudspeaker via true TL, low Qts drivers, and (most importantly) series crossovers.
Unfortunately, as you know, he passed away (wow, has it really been almost a decade?!?) before I could really get it all out of him, and though he did provide a thorough and well thought out and worded explanation at the time, I'm unable to recall enough to discuss it intelligently. In summary, more or less, the TL will taper down as one moves through the line, snuffing out the backwave. The BLH will do the opposite, expand, and amplifying it. The ramifications of this are not subtle.
Fast forward a couple of years...a friend of mine who you know pretty well began using a well-known pair of single driver BLHs. One day we tried several tube amplifiers on them: an 16 wpc 211 SET, 15 wpc 300B PSE, 78 wpc Class A push-pull tube, and an 60(?) wpc OTL (not Atma Sphere).
For whatever reason, the first two amplifiers were head and shoulders better with these speakers than the latter. A real surprise, as other more ubiquitous speakers we had tried in the past always yielded the expected results. The two triode amps came across sounding powerful, particularly, the 211 SET. Most surprising, the 78 wpc PP tube amp, which one reviewer claimed sounded like 150 wpc, just could NOT put power into the speaker. Very strange, indeed. The OTL was thin, harsh, and lacking its typical low end performance. Perhaps, it could handle the driver itself, but the folded horn presented something far more difficult for it to push through.
Along these lines, I do believe there is something there in terms of the impedance these speakers present to an amplifier that is much different than the norm. It might not be something folks have yet been able to measure or quantify, but it's something that can be felt, heard, and experienced.
My own Hornings have been a challenge, the biggest I've had to work through in audio. Several times, I came close to giving up on them. The one thing that remained in my mind to the contrary was that Jeff Catalano has always done a masterful job in setting them up and producing what I consider perhaps the most natural and beguiling sound of any room at a show. It's taken me several years to get to the point where I now believe I can have these (or the next iteration) for the long term. Of course, no speaker (or product) is perfect. I do wish they imaged a whole lot better than they do. But the combination of clarity, dynamics, overall realism, and that aforementioned naturalness is something I do not hear in most loudspeakers I've been around. |
Trelja, what would there be about a rear horn-loaded speaker that would make it unsuitable for an OTL?? I can't think of anything... and they've worked fine every time I've tried them. I can think of plenty of things that can cause a particular amp to not work with a particular speaker, but I have found examples of every kind of speaker technology that works with OTLs. I would think something like this: http://www.atma-sphere.com/Resources/Paradigms_in_Amplifier_Design.phpor raw impedance to be a far more likely explanation for a specific mismatch. |
Having owned over 40 SET amps. I stand by my post. And my experiences. Happy listening. |
11flat6,
That effortless quality you refer to is priceless. When your system is capable of reproducing(retaining?) the ease and natural flow of music it`s indeed a wonderful achievement(and hard to live without once found).
At the RMAF this year I heard a number of rather expensive systems that lacked this quality and as a result they came off with a stiff and mechanical presentarion.
Best Regards, |
Sebrof, "You either have an amp designed for a 300B or an amp designed for a 2A3. Therefore there will be variables. What am I missing?"
Buy or build an amplifier that can run both tubes. The only difference one needs to account for is the heater filament voltage; easy enough to get around with a power transformer with multiple taps. The rest of the amplifier remains the same, and then you can directly compare the two tubes. |
11-14-11: Trelja
"Again, the answer is to return to one of the tenets of the Scientific Method, to observe the differences of two items being compared, holding ALL other variables constant. I admit it's a difficult task, and few have the ability, opportunity, or even desire to do so."
How is it possible to hold all other variables constant? You either have an amp designed for a 300B or an amp designed for a 2A3. Therefore there will be variables. What am I missing? |
Dpe / Charles1dad,
i didn't feel the Kondo+Horning pairing to be euphoric in timbre (tube rolling would address this), but rather in presentation. it was generally a tad echoey for my tastes (i.e. many recordings sound like they were done in a large concert hall - which sounds great for certain recordings, but somewhat unrealistic on others).
Lamm+Horning sounds quicker/livelier, but does not hv the ethereal & effortless quality of the former. maybe the grass is always greener on the other side? (i've most likely not found the right balance yet). |
Charles1dad, this is a classic case of one of Bud Fried's absolute favorite topics, cognitive dissonance.
Simply put, you've proved unable to address the question I've put to you multiple times.
You may have compared (some 300B, some 2A3) different amplifiers. But as you initially maintained, there are so many other elements that go into such a beast, the picture becomes too murky to understand. Yet to simply accept that is to give up, without having obtained any actual knowledge or perspective.
Again, the answer is to return to one of the tenets of the Scientific Method, to observe the differences of two items being compared, holding ALL other variables constant. I admit it's a difficult task, and few have the ability, opportunity, or even desire to do so.
If we're going to be honest, which is the only route toward knowledge, you have no idea as which tube you prefer. The reason I say that is because it seems likely you have never directly compared the two tubes.
You have your own amps, which use one of the two tubes (in reality and objectively speaking, which of the two is meaningless) currently under discussion, and you like/love them. That's fair enough. As you said, "As long as we are both happy with our choices/results what else matters?" You "hope" that the tube your amplifiers employ sound better. If they did not, perhaps, it somehow invalidates your own purchase/judgement, and throws you out of equilibrium - the comfort zone. It's far easier to go round and round with someone like me here than to face such a possibility.
My experience is that high-end audio is all about compromises, making choices around such, and then going about living with them. In truth, my opinion is that for your application, the 300B is the far better choice. While I've maintained that the 2A3 produces the clearly superior low frequency response of the two tubes (not sure why that is so threatening a proposition), I, and I believe most people, couldn't live with just one of them. A 2A3 SET amplifier is simply not up to the task of driving all but a very few loudspeakers. |
Trelja,
Like I said, preferences are what they are.It`s not important enough for me to debate about something as relatively trivial as the "better" DHT output tube.There`s no objective "test". Come on now, it`s just subjective, nothing more or less.Dpe can try some 2A3 amps and form his own conclusions vs his Thoress, no big deal.
Best Regards, |
Charles1dad, "I disagree with that based on my own experiences."
Thus far, you've provided ZERO evidence that you were able to compare apples to apples when it comes to the 2A3 and 300B vacuum tubes.
Again, I will say, you need to hold ALL of the other variables constant before making your statement - transformers, power supply, circuit, driver tubes, etc. In other words, all of the things you previously laid out as making one amplifier superior to another. Then, and only then, will you be able to speak with any degree of authority.
This represents the essence of Scientific Method, developed out of the need to objectively draw conclusions when making comparisons between two things as we are doing with these two tubes. Otherwise, you're making a statement based on nothing beyond false hope.
Bud Fried liked to state that a backloaded horn was the opposite of a (true) transmission line. And, though of late it's become somewhat fashionable to try and equate the two, the differences come across as fairly obvious.
Though many times I've said that I've yet to find a better loudspeaker for the Atma Sphere than the TL. Conversely, I will again state that I have found that backloaded horns (Hornings and otherwise) do not mate at all well with OTL amplification (Atma Sphere or otherwise). As I've previously said, I haven't worked it all out, but there is something in regards to the impedance a backloaded horn presents to an amplifier that separates it from more ubiquitous loudspeakers, including front-loaded horns. What I am certain is Bud's point speaks to all of this.
That's not to say you can't drive this type of loudspeaker with such an amplifier. Obviously, you can. However, we all know that folks having poor (or worse) loudspeaker - amplifier marriages are as common as the day is long. |
Hi 11flat6,
Just curious, which amp sounds more like live music the Lamm or the Kondo ? |
Dpe,
Astute observations.
I would encourage you to try OTL and other amps with your Hornings .Your Thoress may best them all if your priority is realistic, natural and full sound.
I visit local jazz clubs fairly often and acoustic instruments heard live are very full bodied,dense and have deep tone saturation.The sound is dynamic and immediate but always full of body and tone.
It seems many current components follow the audiophile standard of detail emphasis and most tend to sound lean,dry,sterile etc. They don`t sound anything like what I hear live at all. A good SET amp in my own experience comes closer to the realistic-organic sound I hear in the clubs.
If that type of music presentation is what you desire, your amp may be hard to beat. Certaintly other amps will sound different but better? You`re starting with a very good baseline for comparisons.
Best of Luck, |
Atmasphere, interesting that you suggested your M-60 for the Horning. 60 watts would certainly up the power in comparison to anything I've driven the Horing with thus far. Actually I would think the S-30 would be more than sufficient power for either the Aristoteles or the Eufrodite. By the way I always spend a great deal of time listening to the M-60 and CAR T1s at RMAF. Very impressive!
I also (naively) find it confounding when power equates more bass extension. I doubt I listen to very much music that goes below 40hz, Led Zeppelin doesn't get spun that often and even if it were I'd just be listening to Jimmy Page's acoustical tributes to Bert Jansch. So rather than thumping bass notes I would rather hear great bass articulation from the sound that I do enjoy.
Another puzzling thing for me is 11flat6 term: "euphoric", which I take for meaning exceedingly warm. When I attend a live performance of someone like jazz guitarist Jimmy Bruno and his Fender amp, I'm not hearing a resolving defined sound; rather the sound is euphoric (if my interpretation of this word is correct) and fusing. When I listen to a Bruno recording I want to hear a little heat and breath to emulate that Fender amp. I've heard a lot of amps render that sound sterile. Having said that, I'm not quite sure I want the same sound when listening to an un-miked acoustical guitar. From some of my previous posts you'll get a similar rant regarding my love for definition and dissipation of jazz piano notes. In my cramped, but too large listening room I have two sets of speakers and have up until recently owned more than one amp. If I'm not paying attention to what I'm listening to, and it's music that I like, then I know that the sound is dry and sterile and it's time to switch out components or blame it on the recording.
Here I go rambling again, but I think my initial post implied that theres no one solution depending on what we listen to and how varied it might be. I think we convince ourselves that where were at in the evolution of our sound systems is the end all be all, but for a curious person like myself I always have an insatiable urge to further experiment and entertain others opinions. I like the idea of a 2a3 PP or possibly throw another OTL amp at them (Although I dont like the Horning/Berning combo, but thats just my preference). |
I've not heard them together in some time, but our customer's comments regarding the M-60 and Horning fly right in the face of Trelja's comments. We've had customers run the combination for years. The speaker *does* like a bit of power. |
i've been using a pair of Eufrodites' in my 2nd system for a few years.
used to drive them with a 211 based SET (Kondo Ongaku) but felt the combination to be overly euphoric. i've since been using 6c33 based SET amps (Lamm ML2.1). timing & general presentation seems more neutral, but i'm not entirely convinced. still prefer my 1st system. |
Trelja,
I disagree with that based on my own experiences and I`ll just leave it alone from this point on. As long as we are both happy with our choices/results what else matters? |
Charles1dad and Johnk, what you both have said is 100% true.
However, for whatever reason, you're missing my point that head to head - again keeping all other variables constant, the 2A3 will outshine the 300B tube when it comes to bass response. And, it will not be close enough to call it a race. |
JohnK,
My point exactly, you could audtion 5 different 300b amps in the same system and they would sound nothing alike. I`ve heard 2A3 amps sound great and others crappy.
Onemug, I would`nt advise a 300b SET to drive Maggies, but the Horning is an entirely different story.But your point in the effect of various 300b tubes as a 'driver' is spot on. |
Dpe, Read up on the Cary 805 monoblocks. They may do the trick for you. This is what led me to a pair:
I own/owned 45, 2a3, 300b and 845 amps. My favorite is a 300b (well designed of course). I have them mated to "proper" speakers in one of my systems. My other system has Magnepan 3.6's and I wanted to see if I could get any of the SET magic to play thru them. I was able to pull it off with the Cary 805 (Anniversary Edition). This model (the AE) uses a 300b to drive either an 845 or 211 and is rated at 50 wpc with the 845 and 70 with the 211. It does what I had hoped for.
A big part of it might be due to using the 300b tube as a driver. I know that I can hear changes when I have used different 300b's like the WE,KR,EML and Sophia Meshes. I was also suprised that I preferred the 211 to the 845 but I do like them both and it's nice being able to switch.
My Maggies are less efficient than your speakers but it worked for this 300b "SET" lover. |
To me its the total design not just what tube the amplifier uses. I've heard weak bloated 2a3 wonderful strong 2a3 300b with no bass below 40hz and 300bs that are driving loudspeakers into 20hz. |
