Hook-up Wire: Duelund DCA16GA vs Neotech STDCT-16 vs Cardas 15.5 AWG

one more question

why does almost no one mention Neotech stdct occ copper 

audioman58,

thank you for your Input

Would you recommend Cardas chassis 11,5 AWG wire for loudspeaker wire Instead of Duelund dual DCA12GA - aim Is neutral sound fast detailed controlled bass 

loudspeaker Is 6 ohm 88 db effective

 

The Duelund is colored with the oiled cotton 

and micro  arching between strands ,the Cardas sounded noticeably cleaner 

especially low level detail , even vs Neotech ,but getting the enamel off the strands a pain in the ass at first , you need a hot iron ,or stainless brush first on dremmel 

then clean, flux then good Cardas solder to tin nicely and this wire in the 15.5 gauge took 2-250 hours to fully settle in ,remember a speaker is only pulling 30-40 volts tops if that , I felt that was a good average size gauge l

you may want to try some  of these     DUELUND DCA12GA (600V) AC Power Cord w/ConneX Premium Power/IEC Plugs, 2 Meter (partsconnexion.com)

i m now using the 12g 600v for speaker wire with great results.

Duelund 600V DCA12GA, DCA16GA, or DCA12GA on the "Stokowski" Altec's as speaker cables? Update! - Jeff's Place (positive-feedback.com)

Hi @lemonhaze, thanks very much for your helpful answers, and sorry fow my late reply. I've ordered some parts, and will report back with the results when I have installed them. 

In the meantime, regarding point 4: it did not occur to me that I could solder the big coil directly to the speaker terminal, especially to the mid-bass driver. Is there any specific reason for not putting it in the external XO box, but nearby the voice coil of the driver? 

In answer to your question, I've got some Jantzen Superior Z-Cap and Kiwame 5W resistors at home to start with (plus Jantzen and Mundorf MOX resistors). Later on, I'd like to try Powertron metal foil resistors as well. 

Since originally, this is a thread about hook-up wires, I'll report back especially on the cables as well. I didn't want to steer away from the topic, but this was the pllace where I could find the most helpful answers to many of my questions. Should I start a new thread?

Point 1: Those are budget speakers so expect budget components. Stay 1mH but upgrade to 18 or 16 AWG air-core. Look for a coil that has been dipped or uses baked varnish. Do NOT add series resistor. The bigger 16 AWG will have a lower resistance, improving damping factor, and the baked varnish provides a more stable coil.

Point 2: You can keep the tweeter coil/inductor as is.

Point 3: External XO is superior. I like to build on phenolic resin board or Bakelite and rest the XO in a shallow box filled with dry builders sand which will rest on the floor directly behind the speakers. Make the box 10mm wider and longer than XO board dimensions and settle the XO board onto the sand. Experiment with feet underneath. Spikes do not seem to help much. I preferred squash balls cut in half or better still are springs. If carpeted then place a heavy porcelain tile underneath.

Point 4: I now only use solid OCC Cu for internal wiring. About 24 AWG for tweeter and 12 to 16 AWG for bass. I would solder the big 1mH coil directly to the speaker terminal and the other end of coil to go via 12 AWG OCC Cu. to XO. No terminals nor speaker posts. Same with tweeter wire. The best terminal is no terminal. Guys pay silly money for good quality posts to do the least damage. Rather spend that money on better XO components, like series cap to tweeter. Use your Duelund from amp to XO, again avoiding connectors if possible.

Point 5: You didn’t know you had one? That electrolytic has to go. The tweeter series cap makes a big difference, so does the resistor. What have you got for replacement?

Dear All,

Thank you for your contributions to this very interesting thread. I’ve been experimenting with tinned copper cables too, mostly with the usual suspects (Duelund 16GA, Belden 9497 for speakers and 8402 for IC), but I'm still at the beginning of my experiments, so I would like to ask for some expert advice, especially in the area of speaker cables, the internal wiring of my speakers, and upgrading the crossovers. I'll proceed in reverse order with my questions (my apologies for including not just cable-related questions in this thread):

I have a pair of vintage JPW AP2 speakers, which I love. I listen to classical music most of the time, especially solo piano,and they are wonderful at that. They are a classic 2-way British design with a sealed box and fairly simple crossovers (just an air core inductor behind the woofer, in series with it; and a resistor, a bipolar electrolytic capacitor and a smaller inductor behind the tweeter (the latter in parallel)).

I've decided to rebuild the crossovers to improve the sound.

1. Concerning the mid-woofer: the AP2 comes with an air core inductor that is 1 mH, 21AWG, 1 Ohm. Many people suggest that an inductor of the same inductance, but using a heavier gauge wire could be beneficial. But since it also results in a smaller resistance, would I need to compensate for the drop in resistance by installing a resistor in series with the new coil? If so, what are the possible benefits of giving up the principle of simplicity in this case (that is giving up using only one part in the bass crossover section, i.e. the coil, vs using two: coil + resistor, where presumably the two parts have their own kind of distortion, even if you invest into a really good resistor)? Or shall I just leave the original part?

2. Concerning the tweeter: does the thickness of the wire used in the inductor in parallel with the tweeter matter as much as that of the inductor in series with the woofer? The current part is a 0,6mH, 29AWG, 3.18 Ohm (air core). Would I gain anything by replacing it with a heavier inductor (+ a resistor)? As for the cap and the series resistor, I think I'm already settled, it's just the inductors that give me a headache.

3. Internal vs. external crossover: once I am there to rebuild the crossovers using better quality parts, I might as well just move them out to an external box, thereby distancing them from the vibrations of the speaker (it's not much extra work). Is it worth - sonically - to do so, or do internal crossovers perform reasonably close to external ones using the same parts? People seem to be divided on this issue (what a surprise :) ), but Living Voice (which you discussed above) advocates the use of external crossovers, if one can afford them. Again, since I would do the work, it's not much extra work or cost, but I understand that the AP2 might be too modest a speaker (especially compared to the Living Voice) to display the difference between the crossover built in or outside of it, so I might not gain anything.

4. Cables. Internal cables first: would you upgrade the stock internal wires of the speaker with different gauges for the tweeter and the woofer? I am thinking about 3 possible combinations, only one of which uses wires of different thickness for the tweeter and the woofer; and while I know that it is impossible to tell a priori which of the 3 would sound best in my speakers in my room, I will ask the question anyway :) Would you recommend Duelund DCA16GA tinned copper for both tweeter & mid-woofer, OR Duelund DCA16GA for tweeter and DCA12GA for mid-woofer; OR 20AWG CC08 solid core Duelund non-tinned copper cable for both tweeter & mid-woofer (in general, I am a big fan of solid core cables, and I love the IC I built of the Duelund 20AWG CC08, I can highly recommend it!). I am not considering the DCA20AG for the tweeter, because I like the fuller character of the DCA16GA which everyone tend to associate with it; if it is 20AWG, it would be Duelund's solid core copper cable. @grannyring suggests to "at least match [the] gauge thickness" of the inductor when choosing the wiring. If I stick to the original 21AWG inductor, then this is really not an issue, as you can see, only if you say I should use a much heavier coil.  

As for speaker cable, I am thinking of replacing my current DCA16GA with the DCA12GA, following @grannyring 's advice above regarding the choice between the two in relation to the power of one’s amp and the sensitivity of the speakers (my amp is a 35W solid state Audio Innovations ALTO mk1; the AP2’s sensitivity is 89db).

Now, if you suggest I should I also opt for an external crossover, that would multiply the possible permutations when it comes to speaker cables; you could use e.g. a single wire from the amp to the crossover, say Duelund DCA12GA, then DCA12GA from the crossover to the mid-bass speaker terminal & DCA16GA to the tweeter, and finally 20AWG solid copper core everywhere inside the speaker (it's a pity this solid copper wire is not very practical for speaker cable because of its rigidity). Or would you rather use the same wires all the way long from the amp to the speaker drivers (e.g. bi-wiring all the way long with DCA16A & DCA12GA)? I guess I could even let go of the speaker terminals, and solder the chosen cables directly to the drivers and the external crossovers’ output, sealing the speaker cabinet from behind, and just drill a hole for the wires. While this may not be very practical for many, for me it wouldn't be a problem, and I could avoid the use of binding posts which – I assume – have their own sonic imprint.

Apologies for the long entry and the numerous - not necessarily related - questions; I hope the answers will serve others as well. Many thanks for your advice in advance.

I don't have experience with multistrand Neotech wire.

I am about:
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/stdct16-neotech-upocc-copper-wire-1903mm-teflon-p-8458.html

Neotech Wire 22awg LEGENBURG Rectangular is not bad wire at all! It has very lush, musical sound with very good midrange.
I just say, Duelunc Cu-Sn is much better. 

Why is Neotech stdct hook-up bad?

In the end, I decide to replace hook up wires in my 300B integrated. 
I was using Neotech Wire 22awg LEGENBURG Rectangular for many ears in this amplifier.
I exchanged it to Deuelund DCA20GA wire from RCA inputs to input select (50cm) and
Deuelund DCA16GA wire from input select to volume control (10cm).
For volume control I use constant Shinkoh 90K resistor shunted by DACT 100K step attenuator.
The sound changed dramatically.
Much more dynamic. Much more high frequency resolution and air.
Soundstge is bigger in all direction, better separation between instruments.
A tone of guitar strings, piano, violins is more real.
Legenburg wire added upper bass bloom that made sound more lush and warm.
But, with Duelund wire in my integrated, the sound of my system still has enough meat on bones. 
The impression - the bottleneck was removed from my system.
The next step is changing  Legenburg to Duelund wire in my DIY phonostage...

If the run is not over say 8 feet you are fine. 

OK.
I have 97.5dB sensitive speakers and 7 Watt amplifier.

Much prefer the 12 gauge if you have speakers less than 94db effecient and more than say 25 Tube or SS watts. More dynamic, better bloom, bass, and midrange saturation.  Highs are still all there. 

Now if you have highly efficient speakers and 2-15 tube watts, then the 16 gauge is very good indeed. 

Hi @grannyring ,

Did you compared  DCA16GA vs  DCA12GA for speakers cables?
What is a difference in sound?
Do you prefer DCA12GA?

Regards,
Alex.

I forget to say.
The goal of compaction between Duelund DCA20GA and 22awg LEGENBURG Rectangular interconnect was to decide -
should I change 22awg LEGENBURG cables in my 300B integrative amplifier to DCA20GA or not?
Or maybe, I should think about changing LEGENBURG cables to DCA16GA?

Hi @grannyring ,

1. " ICs made with the Duelund 16ga sound better to my ears than the Duelund 20 gauge. Better mids, bass and stage size. "
I’m agreed with you. I think it also sound more dynamic.

2. Duelund 16ga it is also fantastic, magical speakers wire.
I changed Belden 9497 wires to Duelund 16ga between external crossover and Altec 604 dynamics. (I have been using Duelund 16ga between
Amplifier and crossovers for almost a year) . The difference in sound between Belden and Duelund is huge. I didn’t expect such changes because both wires are Cu-Sn and both are 16 AVG.
The sound much more open, base is much better, high frequencies are more detailed and more air, dynamics is huge and speed is like in live performance. The sound also is much more refined and detailed.
Sadly, but despite Duelund 20ga is a good cable, it is not as successful and magical cable as 16ga.

3. In my integrated amp, a have long 50cm input wires for 3 inputs.
The input selector switches both signal and ground wires.
In total input selector has 3 inputs and 1 outputs. Each inputs and outputs has 4 pins (Left+, Left-, Right+, Right-). There are in total 16 pins.
I’m not sure how I can solder 16 x 16AVG wires to this tiny input selector.
I need to think about it...

4. Did you try to combine Duelund 16ga and 20ga in one interconnect.
For example 20ga for + wire and 16ga for - wire?

Regards,
Alex.

ICs made with the Duelund 16ga sound better to my ears than the Duelund 20 gauge. Better mids, bass and stage size. 

I did another comparison between 

Duelund DCA20GA and 22awg LEGENBURG Rectangular interconnect.

As test record I used Schubert quintet D956  with Jascha Heifetz, William Primrose, Gregor Piatigorsky.

Legenburg sounds smoother with better instrument separation. On other hand, Duelund DCA20GA gives drama, dynamic, energy that is almost completely missed with Legenburg cable.

Hi @pumpweel ,

I compared two pairs of interconnects.

One is built from a twisted pair of Duelund DCA20GA 1m length.

The second built from a twisted pair of 22awg LEGENBURG Rectangular 0.5m.

Both cables are with Swithcraft RCA connectors.

I did comparison using interconnects from my Chord Qutest DAC to 300B integrated amplifier.

Interconnects build from Duelund sound more open, vivid, dynamic, with much more realistic tone. On other hand, LEGENBURG interconnects sound more refined and with more small level detail resolution. LEGENBURG midrange bloom coloration irritated me on classical piano record. Duelund tone was is much more on point on every kind of records.

This comparison made me want to upgrade internal wire to Duelund in my 300B integrated.

It has 50cm wires between input RCA and source select switch.

But it is too much job. I need at least 3 hours that nobody will disturb or interrupt me.

I’m am to busy now with my work and family ...

Has anyone used Kimber Kable? How are sound impressions?

Yesterday I updated cables from Werner Jagush crossovers to Altec 604"E" speakers.
I used Belden 9497 and I update it by Duelund Sn-Co DCA16GA.
I use 16ga cable for both mid-base and compression drivers.
Despite zero break-in time Duelund cables sounded notably more transparent, more refined with much more low level detail. I also noticed more open and airy sound from Duelund cables. I don’t noticed a big difference in general tonal balance and vividness.
So  @grannyring is right - cotton insulation is much better for SQ compared to plastic one.
The difference of sound between Belden 9497 and Duelund DCA16GA id very clear.
For me was much more difficult to compare Belden 8402 interconnect to Duelund DCA20GA because totally different tonal balance. Belden 8402 has more right tonal balance for my test.

Hi @pumpweel ,
I had some such experience before.
I used LEGENBURG 22ga for tonearm to MC step-up transformers interconnect cable.
I changed it to Duelund 20ga cotton version.
At first Duelund sounded cooler with less midrange bloom. But separation, soundstage, transparency, high frequencies extension - everything was better with Duelund.
After some beck-in time, Duelund started sound lusher too.
But MC cartridge interconnect works with very small signal and with integrated amplifier input signal this wire can behave a little bit different.

I also made interconnect cables with  Duelund 20ga and 16ga.
20avg sounded faster and brighter.
16ga sounded more balanced, fuller with more information in low mid-range and upper bass and very natural, lush vocals.

Regards,
Alex.

Hi
If you will make a comparison, then write which is better Legenburg or Duelund.

Hi @pumpweel ,
I like  Neotech LEGENBURG.
I use this wire in my amplifier and phonostage for many years.
But I'm curios if I can improve the sound of my amp using Duelund Cu-Sn wires.

@alexberger
Than you dont like neotech Neotech LEGENBURG?

I agree that the 16 gauge is more full bodied than the 20 gauge and I only use the 16 gauge in my ICs.  Not sure I would call the 20 gauge in cotton thin sounding however? I simply find synthetic coverings and shielding do darken or dull the sound of the tinned wire, not make it more balanced. 

Hi @grannyring ,

I understood you.
You wrote: " compared to the cotton 12ga it will not sound as open, real, and lively due to the synthetic covering".
What I want to say, these drawbacks may do a sound of synthetic covering 20ga more balanced compared to lean sounding 20ga cotton version.

Regards,
Alex.

I was only speaking of the 12 gauge and my experience. Sorry I was not clearer. I assume the same differences will apply to the 20 gauge, but I did not test. 

Hi @grannyring ,

Duelund 600volt 20 avg can be used for headphones cables. Cotton isolation is not as durable as plastic one.

I'm also thinking about to upgrade 50 cm long run of cables from RCA inputs to input selector in my 300B integrated SET. Now I use a twisted pair cable made from Neotech Wire 22awg LEGENBURG Rectangular wire.

1. I think the Duelund 16AVG will be difficult to install to input selector switch because width of this wire. (I need to solder 16 wires to this thin switch).

2. And Duelund 20AVG can be sound too lean and hollow.

3. So, I think that 600 volt version of 20AVG can sound more like Belden 8402, not as open and detailed like the cotton version of Duelund 20AVG but more balanced.

4. I also can leave Legenburg Rectangular as is. It is very good sounding wire. It has smooth, bloom and clean sound. But it is not as detailed and good in instrument separation and sound-stage like Duelund cables.

Regards,
Alex.

It is for power cords. I built some power cords and they are breaking in. I will report back. This wire can be used speaker cable, however compared to the cotton 12ga it will not sound as open, real, and lively due to the synthetic covering.

Has anybody tried new Duelund 600 volt Cu-Sn 12 AVG and 20 AVG cables?
How do they sound compared to regular Duelund DCA20GA and DCA12GA?

Hi Granny!
My friend has speakers on (2хSEAS H1215 + SS 15M/4531K00 + Morel ET 338)
This is a crossover circuit.
Now he uses the Analysis-Plus Bulk Hook-UP the cable Analysis-Plus Oval 12.
Which cable can you recommend which will be better than Analysis-Plus?
Thanks.

Yes, twist each driver set separately. Twist the two 16’s together etc....

@grannyring So if you're bi-wiring, say, with 16 and 12 awg, it's better to twist the two 16's together and the two 12's together (tweeter separate from woofer), rather than 16+12 and 16+12 (positive separate from negative)?

Granny, I’m close to the jumpers for my kef r900 speakers. 

Shhot me a quote, please. 

Do you need a photo of the cabinet rear?

i do not bi-wire. Thanks

Thanks grannyring! I’ll try the Duelund wire.
Speakers crossover don’t have contain resistors.
I use Soviet СМ capacitors. Inside the конденсатор СМ is a high quality tin foil in oil.
They have long been discontinued, but they are very good capacitors . My friends and I compared the СМ capacitors with Audyn True Copper Max and everyone liked the СМ capacitor more. Despite their age, they sound great.

Sorry for my English. :)

Granny is your man, err, granny!

Thanks. Nice looking amp! The speakers appear to be a very nice 2.5 way design. The Revelator tweeter is fantastic. I owned the Living Voice OBX RW speakers which had the very same tweeter and similar 2.5 way design.

If looking for a more natural or real sound the decision is quite easy really. The Cardas is nice, but not as open and resolving as the Duelund. The Duelund wire has the Cardas midrange bloom, but goes beyond that with a more open and “real” sound. The Neotech is not the wire for this speaker and your goals.

I am not sure of the crossover design as the link did not provide any info. I am pretty certain the Revelator tweeter has no resistor in series, but a cap and inductor only. The wire and cap used on this is very important. I would use the Duelund 20 or 16 gauge stranded, tinned copper wire here. The 20 gauge will be a tad more airy and detailed. The 16 gauge will be a tad smoother and full sounding. Both would sound great here. I would most likely opt for the 20 gauge in this position. 

If one mid-woofer is handling most of the bass, say below 700 hertz, then I would use the Duelund 12 gauge tinned and stranded copper wire there. I assume the bottom woofer may be handling mostly the bass notes around 700 hertz and below? Do you know the gauge of the air core inductor used on the woofer? I would at least match that gauge thickness.

On the top mid-woofer I would use the Duelund 16 gauge stranded and tinned copper wire.

Dont forget to twist the positive and negative conductor runs going to each individual driver.  I like Kester 60/40 solder with this wire. Be advised the 4% Silver solder types do not flow well on this wire. Also, you will need a place a heat sinking mini plier on the tweeter tabs as you solder so as to not damage the tweeter. 

As an aside, the Jupiter copper foil cap would sound tremendous in series with that Revelator tweeter. The Jantzen Alumen Z would be an affordable and good cap on the mid-woofers. Any series resistors on the mid-woofers should use Path Audio if you can afford. If not, the Mills MRA Line is also good.

I am using a DAC on PCM63, amplifier Noosfera Echo & speakers on (2xMW19P-8 + D2905/990000)
Now in the speakers used some cheap hook-up wire. I want to try a quality wire to get a more natural sound.

Please tell us the speakers you are using and what you hope to gain sonically from the change. These wires each have a sonic personality.  Really need to know what type of finished sound you want from the upgrade. Thanks. 

Thanks!
I have 35 watts per channel amplifier class A.

Check the “Doug Schroeder Method Double IC” cable thread (page 4). He was last seen to post there. You can pm him from there.

Search for a member named grannyring. If anyone has, it is he.