Mapman I sent you a message via Audiogon. Perhaps it did not go through or maybe you have a new address since you began here. |
@ Calvin:
Seriously? Jesus has nothing better to do than inspire cable "technology"? Never mind millions of starving kids, Jesus has audiophiles to take care of!
@ The "It's okay because it's just marketing" people- being marketing isn't a license to lie. There are laws against that sort of thing.
I'll point out that those who have "seen" the measurements have said nothing that would indicate they saw anything with meaning, only that they saw some claims Rick made- and why are there so many people so buddy-buddy with Rick posting hundreds of times in this thread? You'd think that "These are great" would suffice, but no, the shills are exceedingly active and aggressively defending obvious lies. |
I think these cables make good systems great ...and great systems even better.they are surely the best i have ever had in my system ...and the last... |
Hi All--
Like Audiolabyrinth, I don't see any problem with what Badman is saying. While I am sure Rick's cables sound excellent, he is NOT saying they sound bad. His problem is something Rick is claiming that he want to be proven wrong. The onus is on Rick to prove him right or wrong.
As far as I know, such tests/eperiments should have recorded data backing them. I also think that people who make such bold claims should know that they can be challenged any time. Proving one right or wrong requires more than just mere words from the mouth.
That being said, I hope to hear Rick's cabels one day. I am sure, like those raving about them, I would be blown away. |
Ddraudt, I love your posting which saves me from the bile that my saying more would build. |
Badman, I'm sorry for a few things.
One - I haven't read your posts for several reasons.
A) I avoid Bad people.
B) no useful or helpful info.
C) I don't play the "respond to crazies" game.
I'm also sorry High Fidelity products make whatever you sell inferior.
I'm sorry your not enjoying the music because of this.
I'm sorry you got lost on the wrong thread.
I truly hope you get whatever help you need to feel happy again.
Love Dave |
This is war!, attack fellow high-fidelity owners, Get-em!, all of you how to make this go away, all of you do it on a regular basis, say nothing! |
Well, according to Ddraudt, in this his only thread, these wires apparently have now changed home audio forever and any system may be lacking in lieu of them.
SInce I cannot afford them, with kids in college and such, I might have to find another hobby. So I am hoping that they are not as great as claimed frankly. :^) |
High Fidelity cables have given me the greatest audio Joy I've experienced in 35 years of audiophile listing. I never imagined audio could sound this amazing! My music is on more than ever and is so damn real sounding it seems impossible. Had people over 3 times this week to listen to this most impressive sound and have 2 out of town groups coming this weekend. Ricks cable are so great!! I'm bringing some to my audio friends in Houston maybe the next weekend.
I have a full loom of UR cables that are in a league of their own as far as music quality. I am also using A URR power cord and a UR WGPF (magnetic power filter). Each item is unbelievably fantastic and the combo is superb in every way! I've had all the different level of High Fidelity Cables. The CT-1 was amazing and every level up was Shockingly Superior to the previous. The sound I have now would be impossible to describe well enough to give you any understanding of
what I experience. Partly because if you haven't actually heard it you have no reference to draw on as Nothing else sound this mindboggleingly outofthisworld good.
Ive tried to read some posts lately but some only say Blablablabla like what Snoopie hears when humans speak. Other posts about what High Fidelity cables are like have been very interesting, Thanks!
I love that I'm enjoying the music more than ever before and look forward to hearing from others who are Enjoying the music more also.
D |
@badman. It comes from somewhere right? Why not him. Ideas come from somewhere. All I have to say is I really wish you well. It's seems like there is a lot of anger in your posts. I guess when someone is sent to try to kill JOY. They really work hard to get it done. I if you are right or wrong I don't think those who are in it for the music really care about a sheet of paper. I looked at your post and I don't understand the math part. I just understand the sound part. This thread is for those to share experiences with the cables. Have you tried them? I think I can speak for most of us on the thread. You made the point you wanted to make. Or you believe you made. We want to get back to the joy of our listening impressions and experiences. I hope that you can find peace now let's get back to why we post. Do the cables sound good or they don't !!!!!!!! |
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So Badman, you are saying the difference between calling High Fidelity Cables a fraud or legit, is having the words 'system-wide' vs 'electronic components' on their website (the later excluding the loudspeaker from the chain).
The website is a marketing device, not a white paper, and you are declaring people frauds on the basis of a semantic word game. All I can say is, get some bloody perspective.
But we all know the real story here is just an excuse to have a rant. |
Calvinj, You should send me some copys of those recordings you are always speaking of, I enjoy piano and violin, and female voices, that is spooky good recordings, send me some music man!,anyway, I would not concern myself about negative post like the one Badman posted here on this thread if I were you, Ignore them!, as always, your friend, Keith. |
8-09-14: Agisthos
I know for as fact rick schultz had 3rd party testing done
08-11-14: Agisthos
Badman, perhaps the testing was done on amplifier output, not speakers, perhaps it was on just the DAC output stage, testing a single digital cable.
At these points in the signal chain, the relative differences of cables are magnified relative to total distortion levels.
You are just way out of line accusing people of being a fraud when you have no idea of the testing methodology (neither do I know it).
But I will tell you one thing, Rick told me the external testing company was most surprised about the SNR changes, rather than distortion reduction you are focusing on. To them that was even more impossible.
BADMAN SEZ:
So you know it for a fact but haven't seen the details of the measurement setup? So your fact is based upon "Rick said so". Not surprising, but still pathetic. Your misapplication of logic while condemning me for the same is even more pathetic. Anechoic chamber testing is all well and good (but not strictly necessary since you can use gating) but doesn't change the fact that to reduce system distortion by 14% you'd have to have at least 14% of system distortion originating from the cable interface. This is not the case in properly functioning gear, plain and simple, the measurements don't exist that back up the claims being made.
They were amazed by 1.5dB eh? That's just Rick making things up because it sounds like a good pitch, and you biting. 1.5dB is nothing.
The ignorance of the most basic aspects of performance is what allows Rick to make ridiculous claims without being challenged, backed up by tbg who fails to evidence anything other than his own foolish dogma.
Oh, and the whole claim of soldering magnets inline being inspired by Jesus is some freakish combination of delusional and manipulative. |
@audiolabyrinth. Hey I'm no mathematician but maybe we can get us one so I can understand what in the world he is talking about with them numbers. You know I can't count too good. Lol. Hey the thread is about the music. The sound. Not the numbers. Right or wrong about numbers who cares. I don't think any of us who have high fidelity care about the numbers we got them based on sound not numbers. We are not going to say wowww the numbers are off .0000000001%. We got to get rid of them cables. You either like the sound or you don't. Period. One more thing what if the numbers are right? I look at numbers at the store. We listen to cables for the sound. Cool I understand. Well when the cables sound good lets look at the numbers so we don't use our ears to listen. Happy counting oh sorry my bad "Happy Listening". Now Keith now don't you go getting all hyped up on me. You know we are good with each other Mr. Tara Labs. Know remember we are good with each other. I'm listening to lightnin Hopkins right now. My friend robert spence played it on the resonessence invicta dac through high fidelity cables and it sounded great. |
Calvinj, did you try another pc with it? |
@everyone. I just purchased the resonessence invicta dac. I tried them with high fidelity. This is is a great sounding dac. Best I have heard so far. Better sound staging depth and width. Smooth and no loss of detail. Using the high fidelity power cord on it. |
No pun intended, I like all of you here, however, Badman's last post read very valid to me, I understand the Hf cable may sound great to some, I do not believe Badman is really talking about the sound of the cable here, just the specification claims, there appears to be truth into what he is really talking about, neither less, enjoy your cables everyone, that, in the end is what it is about. |
@everyone. I just purchased the resonessence invicta dac. I tried them with high fidelity. This is is a great sounding dac. Best I have heard so far. |
Helping a human being out? Do tell. |
@everyone. Sorry I'm just slow I'm not that good with numbers but my ears are what I rely on. I will just tell you this I have tried cable after cable and these are different from all of them. As far as someone being a fraud. I deal with people on how they treat their customers. I have had Rick personally look at my system. He has made improvements and suggestions that have nothing to do with him selling me something. It's called customer service. It's called trying to help a fellow audiophile get the most out of his system. It's called helping a human being out. I remember calling a local audio dealer here in Dallas and how if he could not sell me a certain amount of equipment he didn't want to deal with me. He couldn't even commit to how many days it would take to complete the job. Even after I guaranteed 2 days labor upfront. I actually didn't frown on his high deposit and he continually back peddled because he could make a certain profit off me. Yes, Ricks cables are expensive but the deliver great sound. However, more importantly he backs it up with great customer service. The reason why I got a long term demo of his product because he knows it's that good. That's when you know your stuff is good. You are not afraid that people won't like it. How many of us have bought product we never heard and been disappointed. This is why we come to these forums on audiogon to keep it from happening again. Well all I know is that I'm selling almost all my other cables after hearing high fidelity ultimate reference in my system in this demo. It's funny how people started out talking about measurements before they talk about sound. I wonder if it's the competition freaking out. Hmmm. That's a thought. If I'm on top of my game I'm not worried about what the next man is doing or saying. The question is "How does it sound?" Like sweet butter with just enough kick in it but still open and transparent. No grain or after taste. Well I guess you are doing something right Rick. Now listen up fellas this ain't a math class it's music. Put your calculators up and open your ears. Lol. |
That's one angry audiophile. |
Badman, keep babbling on. |
"System Wide" is unambiguous and includes loudspeakers. They're all just handwaving claims, meaningless and absurd. "3rd party" is a copout, and doesn't stand in any industry. Whose data, whose test did you use? Are they legit or someone you paid to produce false data to substantiate your claims? Laboratories LOVE to have their name referenced when they performed testing, it's free advertising. The only reason it's not mentioned is because it's a sham. Proper test results are a great marketing tool, and if they could do what they claimed, they would be used by military, nasa, everyone and their brother.
It's impossible to reduce "System wide" THD and IMD by 14% in the cables, since the cables are not meaningful contributors of these types of distortion. Cables cannot positively influence the operating behavior of properly working gear in THD and IMD. SNR improvement of 1.5dB is within typical measurement variance- someone's cell phone being in their pocket can make that difference, or broadcast schedules, or freeway traffic, or or or...... but I don't take issue with that 1.5dB claim, which is entirely possible.
Take a look at Stereophile. They measure amplifiers, preamplifiers, speakers, DACs, but not cables- why? Because cables don't show up on measurements in a meaningful way, unless they're broken (and "not nice enough" doesn't qualify as broken). Note that this is within audio cables specifically- when you get into true high power and/or high frequency design, every little thing gets more complex including cables, but we're talking about the audio band here.
Every person disagreeing with me has one simple task to "win". Show meaningful distortion measurements from an audio cable (not claimed nonsense measurements by some unnamed 3rd party, proper measurements with methodology, etc). Any audio cable. If it were a big enough issue to reduce system distortion by 14%, you'd better believe it would have published measurements- just like every other type of gear around. Such testing doesn't exist, because cables don't add meaningful THD, IMD, or most other measureable distortions. Noise is definitely one area where they can contribute but 1.5dB is NOTHING.
While I'm not an audioholics fan, this testing does indicate that there are not significant THD components derived from the cables themselves, which would be a prerequisite for achieving the claimed improvements. These are at levels well below a typical system's noise and distortion floor, even with loudspeakers excluded.
http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/cable-distortion-and-dielectric-biasing-debunked
Use 'em, enjoy 'em, I don't really care- there are legitimate mechanisms by which cables can introduce their own sound into a system. THD and IMD claims of this magnitude are outright lies. |
Thankyou Albertporter for the great explaination for capacitance, I enjoy reading many of your post, good to see you, cheers. |
What do you think the magnets would have an effect on? The audio signal? The dielectric? The jacket? Just curious...... |
One thing that can be said about these is that by applying magnetism they have a unique design concept that one would expect might well have some effect on the sound compared to no magnetism. A wire on steroids perhaps for lack of a better description?
So there would seem to be an attempt at innovation here that makes me somewhat curious just to hear what might be unique, better, different, or whatever that might justify the cost.
Applying magnetism should certainly have some effect on distortion you would think, for better or for worse.
|
Badman, it would be easy for me to say your claim are a fraud, as it was for you to claim what you did. Is there any reason for us to take your claims seriously? Give us some substantiation of your claims. Please don't tell that "everyone knows this" as that really means you have no substantiation.
I might add that all of this has no meaning for my judgment that these cables, and I mighty add the power cords, are revolutionary, whatever you have to say, whether legitimate or not. |
Percentage, not percentage points.
I've seen the test results. The reduction was 14 % of the existing/measured THD. So... it dropped from something like 0.2 % to 0.172 %, which is a reduction in THD of 14 %.
Please note that these aren't the exact numbers, just similar to what I recall. |
Badman, perhaps the testing was done on amplifier output, not speakers, perhaps it was on just the DAC output stage, testing a single digital cable.
At these points in the signal chain, the relative differences of cables are magnified relative to total distortion levels.
You are just way out of line accusing people of being a fraud when you have no idea of the testing methodology (neither do I know it).
But I will tell you one thing, Rick told me the external testing company was most surprised about the SNR changes, rather than distortion reduction you are focusing on. To them that was even more impossible. |
Get-em High- fidelity fans! |
yes, I agree, Rick shultz is a nice guy, I have enjoyed talking to him by phone before, cheers. |
Stirred the pot eh? The claims of system wide distortion reduction are falsehoods. They simply cannot be- to reduce system distortion by 14% requires changes at the speaker level, not at cable level. All properly performing gear up to the speaker typically is well under 0.5% TOTAL, with some higher numbers possible in cases like SETs and whatnot. The typical speaker contributes well over 95% of distortion artifacts in a system, and that distortion is due to electromechanical realities over which the cables have no influence. Cables add exceedingly small measurable artifacts, primarily noise. No person who's ever used any meaningful test gear would argue otherwise, only true believers who accept wild claims without substantiation. Tell you what- anyone here want to theorize what mechanism could add 14% to both system THD and system IMD in a cable? Nobody understanding even the most elementary technical aspects of a system could accept such an absurd claim.
They might sound great, I have nothing against cables as a tweak, but when you make up impossible numbers, then you're a fraud. The claim is akin to claiming a fuel additive gave you 1,000,000 extra horsepower. That's not an exaggeration- the claims of 14% are many orders of magnitude from anything that could be claimed legitimately. |
@albertporter. I agree Rick is straight up. Has been a great source of information in audio and knows a lot about sound. Also understands the importance of a number of different factors in sound of audio. Great guy. Gives advice and answers questions as well as great individual customer service. I could not agree with you more. |
I asked whether we were going to hear what both sounded like and was told no. I then asked whether the designer of the other amp might not have thought that THD was all that was important. The audience all groaned. I left.
Like THD which is easy to measure, I don't think capacitance is all important.
Tbg The only reason capacitance could be important is if a cable design had lots of capacitance and it was used in long runs between preamp and amp or between phono cartridge and phono step up. Too much capacitance can cause high frequency roll off but to determine one would need to measure cable capacitance (which varies by length) and input and output impedance of the associated equipment. I had one instance were a long run of MIT cable decidedly rolled off the highs in my system. Fortunately that was long ago and MIT has changed design countless times since then, that problem is non existent now. I do not know the capacitance of High Fidelity Cables but I'll bet Rick could tell us with one phone call. He's one of the nicest guys in audio and about a straight up as anyone I've ever met. |
TBG, you made some sence out of your last post, I agree with you to a point, I thought it may be interesting to know, that is all, happy listening. |
Audiolabyrinth, I remember when THD was viewed as the standard for judging amps. I also remember going to a seminar at the RMAF where John Atkinson demonstrated a Boulder amp versus another unnamed amp and measured THD in different circumstances on both amps. The Boulder measured well and the other awful.
I asked whether we were going to hear what both sounded like and was told no. I then asked whether the designer of the other amp might not have thought that THD was all that was important. The audience all groaned. I left.
Like THD which is easy to measure, I don't think capacitance is all important. |
Really?, Like I walk around with a way to measure anything audio!, I do agree with charles1dad's post, In the end, It is the sound that matters, However, measurements, not claimed advantages do not lie!, like I said, It would be interesting to know the capacitance per foot of the very best HFC has to offer, nothing wrong with that. |
I feel the same as Lak and other similar responders. When all is said and done, all that's relevant is the sound quality. Technical information is interesting and measurements surely have a role. Actual listening is the dominant determinant for success or failure in one's audio system. If it doesn't sound good you won't keep it for long (or at all) despite the scientific claimed advantages it supposedly has.
Charles |
Audiolabyrinth, get some and measure it. |
@wcheng2. You are so right. People should listen to them. Let the ears decide. We don't get our gear based on measurements. We get it based on what our ears tell us. My Ears are in Joy right now!!! |
@agisthos. You made made some great points. I have had extended demos with high fidelity equipment from the regular ct1s all the way up to the ultimate reference. I know what I am hearing. The more high fidelity the lower the distortion gets. I have listened on different equipment amps, pre amps, sources etc. The cables clearly have prat that is I approached by any of the 25 or 30 different cables I have tried. They are also very natural and the get better the higher up the line you go. I have had all of them in systems that I have tested or demoed. I'm not looking at white papers when I'm listening to music. I trust my ear!!! Audiophiles don't look at papers and go wow this level is .00123456789 off. We trust our ears and how it sounds. Lol. If someone did that at a listening session with me I would put them out. Lol. Go back to my sweet spot and keep listening. |
I would like to know the pico/farods capacitance per-foot of the HFC, would be interesting to know. |
I know for as fact Rick Schultz had 3rd party testing done. As well as the distortion and SNR figures HFC also did testing of the square wave rise time, comparing standard cables to CT-1, then CT-1E then CT-1U e.t.c showing a faster and faster rise time.
So why don't they release such data and white papers? Because of people like Badman. The discussion then becomes all about the data, the testing methodology, and the trolls get the ability to grandstand.
I'll give you an example, Badman says because components and speakers have inherent distortion, the claims of HFC reducing distortion are thus impossible.
These two statements are what is known as a non-sequitur, or 'one does not follow from the other'. You can easily test for audible distortion and SNR using the physical speaker output in a anechoic chamber, then swap components and cables downstream in a controlled manner, and see the measured results of those changes. This is common practice across the audio industry, why would someone think taking such measurements is impossible?
At first I was disappointed that HFC did not enter the measurement wars, but if Badman's statement is the sort of illogical thinking and nonsense you have to put up with, why bother even starting the measurement discussion? I can see the point. |
@tbg you are right. This business of audio can get nasty when the heat gets turned up. Dealers get mad when they can't empty your pockets because a better product came along. I guess it's a true sign that HFC is that good. |
@Ddraudt wow some people are really out there. I just know that every since I put these cables in my system that they are special. The SOUND is the key. It's all about the sound not some test tube. All I know is that the audio I use it on sounds better. Some Dealers would just love to see High Fidelity Cables go down. They don't like the heat that they bring to the table. I'm using the High Fidelity Ultimate Reference Speaker Cables. They are staying in my system with the LSA statement amplifier. For the record I have had experience with more that 25 different kinds of cables. THe High Fidelity cables AKA "The Game Changer" are special. I guess when you come on the scene and people love the sound this type of stuff happens. It's interesting how HFC is willing to demo cables out on a regular basis because he knows they are good. These cables are faster, clearer and more natural than anything I have ever heard in the cable industry period. Wowww I guess this is what happens in this industry when you have a great sounding successful cables. Challenge paper reports all you want. I want to challenge the only part that matters. YOUR EARS. Uh oh here come the haters. Hater alert. Hater alert. I pray for those who try to attack the blessing. |
Critics of the high fidelity cables should at least hear them before disparaging |
Hi Friends. A reminder that there are many people who post on all types of sites just to get a response. Usually folks who feel so empty or alone that even a negative response is contact with the outside world. Another type feels so broken or powerless that they try to manipulate others to feel powerful. Or both of those.
Me, I'm looking for contact with others interested in High Fidelity Cables
to share HFC product experiences SO, I skip the ones trolling for trouble. I find replying can escalate into negative responses. Then the Sheriff steps in and blocks further posts.
I'm here to ENJOY the MUSIC. sorry for those poor dears who can't. D |
Mapman, do you really take what Badman says as a challenge? It sounds like a dealer or a manufacture who is unhappy about the challenge of selling against all the acclaim of the HFCs. |
I suppose because he does not believes theclaims to be fraudulent and in need of being challenged.
I don't know if they are or not, but what's wrong with challenging any claim if suspect?
Bullying people to discourage them from challenging things they do not believe in is clearly not the answer.
Facts usually come out over time. If they don't, well then take that for what its worth. |
