High end high quality int. amp for low level listening

There aren’t too many integrated amps that double their power wattage into 4 ohms. The Levinson 5805 does (125 watts into 8 ohms, 250 into 4 ohms).  If you decide to keep your speakers, I would lean towards it or one of the Hegel integrateds myself. 

having subs in the mix will lessen the load on the amp and allow lesser sensitivity

How big of a concern is the load on the amp, when the SPL is in the 60s of decibels?

my 2 cence, hegel 390

@holmzI think ditusa above answered this better than I can. I’m not an electrical engineer, but it has to do I think with the quality of the first watt. Yes 60 decibels is the same volume in two different setups, but the amount of distortion and  resolution heard at that level can be vastly different.  I think you want dynamic headroom listening even at 60 dB. 

IMHO, keep the Pathos and get high efficiency speakers or one with a benign impedance curve (e.g., Fritz Carrera Be, ProAc Response D2, used Joseph Audio Pulsar). I think high efficiency speakers sound better at low volumes than low to medium efficiency speakers, but just my opinion — based on tube Coincident Dynamo 8 wpc amp driving Klipsch Heresy IIIs (99 dB/1 m) versus 125 wpc solid state Belles Aria Signature integrated driving Vandersteen VRL CT (86 dB/1 m). 

Maybe you’re right. But there would have to be a reason why the sounded better.

It could also be the Fletcher Munson is getting somewhat adjusted with speaker that has more low and high end than the other set?
It would be interesting to see REW curves for those two sets @dcevans That assumes that both amps don’t have a loudness correction feature.

The speakers are linear, so it is not like the more sensitive set comes off the blocks faster, other wise they would be non linear at low volume levels… and also they would then be non-linear with small changes in signal level. One would have to make them sticky or something like that, as the motor force is a linear product of current and magnet flux strength. The main non-linear part with a speaker, I think, is compression.

@dcevans,
Agreed!

’’Maybe you’re right. But there would have to be a reason why the sounded better.’’

Because efficiency and sensitivity are not the same. See: tech note
below page 1 section C:

/www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/reference/notes/tech1-3a.htm

That TABLE 1 in section B right on page 1 says that the the high efficiency are the lest linear.

Are harmonics at play that make them sound better when playing low?

60dB listening volume is very low (medium TV level at 10ft.). Even taking into account your 86db sensitivity and 4 ohm impedance of the Sonus Faber Sonetto speakers. The Pathos will have more than enough power for your low listening levels. 

@holmz,
The woofers in my speakers are the JBL 2234h. See: page 2 section C: internal design and construction last paragraph.

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/reference/notes/tech1-3a.htm

I was kind of interested in seeing if anyone has a firm grasp on what makes for a system that sounds great at low volume. It has puzzled me for a long time. From the answers, it doesn’t sound like anyone else does. I have a fuzzy idea.


After fifty years of trading up in an attempt to put together the best system I suspect it is primarily the speakers… but you can loose it by not having good electronics behind it. Planar speakers don’t seem to be good at it. I am thinking efficient speakers are more likely to exhibit good performance at low volume. Tone controls don’t help… I don’t think it is a fundamental characteristic of the amp… certainly not the preamp. So, everything, to me, points primarily to the speakers.

My current system is very good at it. Quite by coincidence (with morning coffee) I am currently listening at about 60db. The noise floor is very low, sounds discrete and extremely fleshed out. My speakers are not tremendously efficient (see my user ID), but they are adequately powered.

I share your pain. Picked up a used Mac 31V with loudness control to replace a McCormack TLC and suddenly listening at low levels was very pleasant. More power or speakers with higher sensitivity won’t help. Find a dealer who has an integrated with loudness so you can hear the difference.

Or install an equalizer.

I always encourage more power!  I'd also explore a Moon by Simaudio integrated amp and I'd try the McIntosh MA6900 or 8700 over the 5300...

I was kind of interested in seeing if anyone has a firm grasp on what makes for a system that sounds great at low volume. It has puzzled me for a long time. From the answers, it doesn’t sound like anyone else does. I have a fuzzy idea.

I suspect that this @dil fellow might:

Or install an equalizer.

If one had measurements of SPL versus frequency then that could be a start.

I see that this thread has become a hot topic, and I'm happy for that. However I can also see that many people misinterpret  my question or maybe I wasn't clear enough. I never said that i was missing bass or highs at 60dBs SPL. My question was: Will i hear any difference at 60dBs if i get better quality amp with better power supply etc . That means, will I get improved resolution, better clarity, improved soundstage, better imaging, blacker background  etc. 

Also, I do not agree with everyone who claim that speakers with higher sensitivity will sound better at low listening because, at 60dBs sensitivity shouldn't make any difference at all. I think the opposite applies, if I want to listen at let say at 90+ dBs SPL then i will surely benefit from higher sensitivity speakers.   

Also, I do not agree with everyone who claim that speakers with higher sensitivity will sound better at low listening because, at 60dBs sensitivity shouldn't make any difference at all.

Agreed!

Absolutely yes. Improving components improves the sound at all levels. Your choice of coarse must be a component which has the right character for your listening tastes. Also, while this is crude it has always worked for me, at least a 2x increase in cost… you can adapt the idea to the used market. But anything less is likely to be a lateral move where you will just trade good and bad characteristics. You need to jump a level or two of performance.

Would a Lyngdorf TDAI 1120 work?

@holmz,

 ''So 1 W would make 86 dB.''

Just to be clear, only in an 8 Ohm load does 2.83 volts = 1 watt. In a 4 Ohm load 2.83 volts = 2 watts. The OPs speakers are 86 dB SPL (2.83 V/1m) @ 4 ohm.

my 2 cents

of your candidates, i would favor the hegel h390 - it is brilliant, and if your source is really good, i believe you will hear a difference going from the pathos - the h390 is has power/control to spare, yet also the sweetness, correctness of tone, nuance and utter blackness of background to please at lower volumes as well

the other choice would be the pass, but the int25 is power limited, and you have stated you want more power into the sf 4 ohm load

Just to be clear, only in an 8 Ohm load does 2.83 volts = 1 watt. In a 4 Ohm load 2.83 volts = 2 watts. The OPs speakers are 86 dB SPL (2.83 V/1m) @ 4 ohm.

Yeah that is correct, but we still get the +3 dB from the other side playing at the same time…  so we are back at 86 dB.

The main point is that 66 dB is -20 dB from 86dB.

So it is like 10mW RMS… maybe a bit more if the R^2 is higher, but definitely under 0.1W… in any case, I cannot see how “more power” could be the right answer.

It would be interesting of the OP has access for demo’ing some amps.

It would be interesting of the OP has access for demo’ing some amps.

Sadly I don't have a chance. Here we have one official McIntosh distributor and none of the other brands can be found on stock.  However, yesterday I was going to audition McIntosh MA 7200 integrated but as i told you they didn't had on stock BUT, they had Sonus Faber Olympica II with a 25% discount because it was the last pair (before they jumped to NOVA). That really bugs me as of this moment and brought me sleepless night :D