More on your favorite topic:
http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/distortion/distortion_2.html |
Weseixas, some of the best speakers I have heard are much more than 4 ohms.
Just so you know, our amps can do a 20 Hz square wave with no measurable square wave tilt, which will not be the case with an amplifier that cuts off at 10Hz.
The point of this thread I thought was all about what made an amplifier high end. To that regard, I hate to say it but its a simple fact that the intention of the designer is what fulfills this definition, not the actual sound produced! Now you are welcome to your opinion, but I think as you look at this subject, in due time you will see that a certain ability in an amplifier is not sufficient to call it high end without other factors.
Now you say I am defending my topology, and there is some truth in that, but at the same time I am also defending others, for example those that were on my list in my last post. In each case, a high end amplifier manufacturer was named, but their 2 ohms response is likely limited.
Now I realize that the whole Voltage/Power paradigm thing is a problem for you. I used the term 'paradigm' for a reason: A paradigm exists when anything outside that platform of thought is simply discounted as 'not right', 'bogus', 'non existent', 'pseudo science', etc.
Now I think you have also brought up a different subject, which is 'what is the State of the Art (SOTA)' which is a different question from 'what is high end?' We can easily see that there is a difference- if the manufacturer of your amplifier has another model that is built with similar ideals, are you going to tell me one is high end and the other is not?
It may be as well a question that is equally difficult to answer- it took me 15-20 years to have a really good answer to the issue of high end.
But I can say this: what would define State of the Art? The ability to drive 2 ohms? In the absence of the ability to also sound like real music, the answer there is no. IOW, the ability to sound like real music has got to be in the cards, because it is the music that it is all about.
Now if you could build an amplifier that was a voltage source, that was also lacking in the odd ordered harmonics that color such amplifiers, I would be down with that in a heartbeat. I don't like brightness- to me its a more sinful coloration than the traditional 'tube' sound (by that I mean the 2nd harmonic, which BTW is lacking in our gear as it is fully differential). So there are aspects of this that seem to point at taste. |
The point of this thread I thought was all about what made an amplifier high end. To that regard, I hate to say it but its a simple fact that the intention of the designer is what fulfills this definition, not the actual sound produced! -Atmasphere,
LOL, Ralph, i guess that response will do..... I accept :)
The best speakers made are lower than 8 ohms and this is absolutely true for a SOTA speaker system, if low distortion and low dynamic compression is the goal.
I would not be interested in an amplifier that is not a true voltage source or at least close to, too much of a compromise to begin with IMO and i will agree that in itself does not make an amplifier hi-end, just not SOTA.
Maybe we should define a price point , i will give this ago, any SS Amp over 10K should be a voltage source amplfier IMO.
Betta ?
Regards, |
Atmasphere,
Where can i find bench test results of your amplifiers? Most tubies have issues with a 20 hz square wave due to there trannies, so it would be interesting to see what yours look like without.
Do you post on your web site ? I last heard one of your amplifiers at Stereophile 94, we were on the same floor, so i guess a ton has been done since, well apart from the Hi-end renumeration... :)
Will you be in Atlanta ?
Regards, |
might try that Nagra pyramid amp for it aerodynamics. Any idea what it weighs. Had tubes but I burned my face real bad when I got bumped at the lake. |
I prefer to look at measurements, scopes, and articles (I don't understand ALL the technical stuff but, thankfully, there are a lot of real smart people that do) about amps instead of dealing with reproduction of sound by some lame "musician"...a high end amp is simply a better and more expensive thing than otherwise, and putting music through it can only cause ear damage and incite sometimes shouted "opinions" from less worthy so-called "other people", and that can only lead to strife and discomfort. Art? I mean really...who cares? |
Rshnicle,
Still trying to be funny?...still? |
Still trying to impose "mirth control"? Still? I do have compassion for the humorless and feel for the long suffering friends and families of those unfortunate souls who are compelled to suck the air out of any attempt at levity by those who dare to joke around a little...perhaps looser underwear could help those without humor to seem less like my Uncle Dick. |
Oops...I thought Roxy54 was aiming that comment at me...but it was at Rshnicle so I will allow it as Rshnicle's post wasn't as funny as mine, and apologize if I seemed harsh. Aren't I just a sweet person? |
Weseixas, We did a few Stereophile shows but none of them were in '94. There may have been someone there using one of our amps though.
These days at home I use a speaker that is 16 ohms and goes to 20Hz. It uses field coil drivers with beryllium domes for the midrange drivers. There are no breakup in the speakers anywhere in the audio band, so they are quite smooth, very detailed and fast, owing to the fact that there is no magnetic sag in the magnetic field of the magnets- not unlike the way ESLs work. Clearly in its own way it expresses state of the art operation, even though it is not a low impedance planar or the like.
There are not a lot of published specs of our amps that are the result of independent measurement. One of the bigger problems we have run into is the fact that output of the amplifier floats, and so if the scope or analyzer used on the amp has a ground connection into the AC wall power, the result is that one of the speaker terminals will be at ground. This causes the amplifier to have high distortion and low power due to the resulting unequal drive of the power tubes in this condition. This was a problem with the Soundstage.com tests done about 10 years ago. In that test the amp only made about 100 watts- not the 140 that it did when we got the amp back from them and double-checked the results.
About nine years before that, an engineer in Salt Lake City sent us the results of a test that he did on one of our early MA-2s. That amp had a feedback switch that allowed that amp to run 8 db of feedback. The output impedance that resulted was under 0.5ohms. You can make a voltage source out of an OTL IOW, but to my ears it never sounded right when you engaged the feedback. I did notice that there were certain speakers that needed the feedback, but I found that if the speaker needed it- there was no way it would sound as good compared to a speaker that did not need the feedback.
That precipitated the investigation into the why of that matter, but I really did not feel comfortable in explaining the results of that investigation until about 5 years ago. |
Wolf,
Quite to the contrary, I truly appreciate good humor... when it's good. What he wrote there wasn't funny, and didn't even make sense. |
i suspect that high end is a qualitative concept based upon a price threshold. that is at some price point a component is considered high-end. i'm not sure what that is.
on another note, the poster who listed the brand names of some high-end tube manufacturers, left our aesthtix, conrad johnson, audio note, lamm, navison and others. |
55% of annual gross income. And you have to buy it new from a retailer that is not a demo/floor model. Even better, special order makes it special high end. |
The high end amplifier is the one that blends into your system to the point that it vanishes, calling no attention to itself. |
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To me high end is simply that it is built to a higher standard , signifcantly better than mass market equipment and designed to sound much better and last much longer, |
