03-30-10: Mapman If somebody can show me a SET based system that can deliver Radiohead's "In Rainbows" with the authority and rock solid iron grip in the low end that I hear currently in my system running the (not so) big Bel Canto Class Ds, in a typcial sized listening room, I will be gladly convinced.
Hi Mapman, my Parmenter Fat Boy horn speakers (using TAD professional drivers) with either the Lamm ML2.1 now ML 2.2 or my Parmenter GM-70 SET amplifiers plays all types of music with authority. Shapeshifter, Pitchblack & Salmonella Dub really sound wonderful on this system, not a big Radiohead Fan sorry.
The Zu series of speakers are very efficient and easy to drive--plus they give tremdous value.
The Devore line of speakers, while not as efficient as the Zu's are incredibly easy to drive with low-powered tube amps and sound wonderful. The are probably my favorite line of speakers and all of them at their various price levels give incredible sound.
haha, tastes differ so much. I have the Zu Def. 2s and wouldn't trade them for anything on the basis of sound quality. On the other hand, I have a friend with a dearer system than mine based on big Coincidents which I simply can't stand. The bass alignment is just wrong.
The Defs DEFINITELY can fill a big room on In Rainbows, in their sleep, on a small amp. Like a 45. I don't consider them rocker speakers though, it's weird. While they sound 'good' with any competent gear, they have a 'great' level which takes a fair bit of tweaking to attain.
A big and hearty second to Daedalus! I've heard the Ulysses with both SET tube amplification and with SS, and in both cases the pairings were outstanding. I cannot speak for Lou, but I can tell you from my own perspective that the synergy with specific SS amps (Modwright in the case of my own experience) has nothing whatsoever with listening to music loud. Like Coincident, they are very versatile in that they have the potential to pair well with both tube and SS amplification. From what I've heard of them with each one it would be difficult to pick a preference other than in knowing that SS will probably suit an ultimately wider range of musical preferences. I've also heard the smaller Da-RMA's with Modwright SS monoblocks would opine that those speakers pair quite well with SS, in that case, and are like their larger brothers but with a bit less in the extremes (mostly low end).
I had reminded myself to mention Daedalus in this thread and it slipped my mind. These are indeed excellent speakers, some of the best around, and they are indeed SET-compatible, but perhaps only higher-power SET.
I had an older pair of DA1s which I drove with a Viva Solista 845 SET as well as an ASR Emitter. The far greater power of the Emitter (and much lower damping factor) was really only evident at very high levels (much louder than I would normally listen).
Both combos were really, really, really good but I think I preferred the SET for that utterly pure midrange.
Lou says the current speakers are an easier load and thus even more friendly to no/low feedback tube amps.
Lou does really seem to like SS amps and I can only speculate that he likes music quite loud or prefers some other aspect(s) of transistor amps because they are very suitable for big SE transmitter triodes at least. I think a 300B would likely be marginal - despite the sensitivity I would think all those drivers draw some current.
As Ralph suggested in an earlier post for another speaker a GM70 based dehavilland could probably swing it too, but it appears anything less than the most powerful SET may not do the trick with those.
Tvad, we are not so strict about the loading on the M-60. I've seen it work fine with speakers that dip to 4 ohms at crossover points, IMO its always something that you try and see how it works. But Thom has had his M-60s for well over a year and a half and seems to really like the combination, so it seems that they are a good match. He's pretty demanding.
I am lucky enough to own Daedalus Ulysses and can confirm that they are the real deal. Excellent dynamics and frequency extension. Lou Hinkley is terrific to work with and extremely customer friendly. I am using a Einstein "Light In Dark" 80 wpc tube hybrid amp and never run out of headroom. I did try Art Audio SET amp which did run out of steam at modest listening levels. I know Thom Mackris of Galibier Design is extremely pleased pairing Atma-sphere M60's with his Ulysses.
Feel free to contact me if you have any questions...Good luck!
Thanks Grant, and thanks for the link to the paper, which as it happens I had seen some time ago. As I indicated in my post yesterday, that appears above and was addressed to Ladavid, my experience has been that well recorded, minimally compressed symphonic music tends to have brief peaks in the area of 100 to 105 db at the listening position, which seems nicely consistent with both Lou's comments and with the 80 watt/channel capability of my amp.
Grant, as I mentioned parenthetically in my earlier post I have not heard them, which btw is why I was hesitant to enter this thread previously. Based on the many glowing comments I've read about them; and on how uniquely well they seem to meet all of the 8 requirements and preferences I listed above; and on the 30 day audition privilege; and on the fact that Lou is apparently one of the genuine good-guys in the audio industry; and on my willingness to ultimately revise the surrounding system to better suit them (if necessary), I've purchased them sight (and sound) unseen.
Yes, I should have them in about 3 or 4 weeks, at which time I plan to post a system description with pics, and perhaps my initial listening impressions in this thread as well (although it will take some time after they arrive until they are reasonably broken in).
Initially I'll be driving them with a fairly inexpensive, seemingly well built, and apparently no longer available Chinese-made amp called a Paxthon VTA-160, which uses 8 x EL34 (4/channel), 2 x 12AX7 and 2 x 12AU7, delivering 80 watts/channel. It's actually a simple integrated amp, with source selection and volume control, but I'm using it just as a power amp, driven by a Classe CP-60 preamp. I've re-tubed it with a matched octet of SED Wing'd C EL34's, and vintage NOS Telefunken and RCA small signal tubes.
In the meantime, you can search the discussion forums and the review section here under "Daedalus," and also read the reviews that are linked to from the Daedalus site. They rarely appear for sale used, btw -- there was only one pair of Ulysses for sale at Audiogon in the last year or so, as far as I am aware.
I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned the Daedalus Ulysses, which are 97db and are in the op's price range.
Although I have not yet heard them, they have received effusively glowing comments from many users here and elsewhere, as well as in reviews that are linked to from the Daedalus site. Based on those comments, and on the extent to which their design characteristics meet my particular requirements and preferences, I felt completely confident in recently ordering a pair, which I am now awaiting. Thirty day audition privileges are standard policy, although I have no expectation of needing to take advantage of that policy.
The only less than glowing comments I have seen about them were offered by a few people who listened to them at RMAF 2009. However in a previous thread here Lou Hinkley (Mr. Daedalus Audio) indicated that was due to problems with the room, which I have no reason to doubt.
My requirements and preferences in choosing these speakers were/are:
1)Top-notch sound quality. 2)Wide dynamic range, specifically the ability to cleanly reproduce the peaks of well-recorded classical symphonic music. 3)Not requiring a high-powered amplifier (e.g., 200W+) to do so. 4)Not requiring a subwoofer. 5)Tube-friendly impedance characteristics. 6)Good imaging. 7)Elegant, refined appearance that is a reasonable match to my wood-panelled 1950Â’s living room. It seems that everyone who sees them raves about their appearance, finish, and build quality. I ordered them in the optional quartersawn white oak. 8)A price that is considerably less than that of a new car.
I know of no other speaker that meets all of these requirements as well.
I figured if anybody could identify a SET based combo that could deliver the goods, it was you!
I may well test the waters of tube amps in my 2 channel A/V second system, where I run triangle Titus XS speakers and an old M&K sub off a vintage 20 watt Yamaha receiver that I fixed up currently. I feel pretty sure I can do better there without breaking the bank, at least out of the gate. The Triangles are about 90db efficient, I believe. I have heard some run them of SET type amps with good results.
Mapman, although I prefer OTLs myself :) if I had a set of field-coil powered Classic Audio Loudspeakers (which are about 99-100 db, about 3 db more than their Alnico versions), I would not hesitate to try out one of the DeHavallind SETs and treat it with lots of bass-heavy techno material.
I listen to a lot of this stuff at home- I guess you could say I demand a lot out of my system, so I know that with the right speaker you could do that with the right SETs.
We have what we call the 'Atma-Sphere Bass of the Year' award, see http://www.atma-sphere.com/awards/bya/index.html I've seen some of these recordings throw some well-known speakers right on their respective faces...
yep you are right got the models wrong. Have a medium to large living room so have been looking at Total Victory IV. Good to hear Coincident's amps are 300b's - didn't know about these amps.
Ladavid -- Are you sure that you don't mean Total Victory IV's, which are listed at the Coincident website as being 95db? The Super Victory (there is no Super Victory 4 listed) is indicated as 92.5db.
8 watts into a pair of 95db speakers will produce an spl of about 95db at a 4 meter listening distance. With most music that should be way more than enough volume. However with classical symphonic music that is well recorded and minimally compressed (typically on audiophile-oriented labels), in my experience occasional brief peaks will reach 100 to 105db at the listening position.
I have been looking longingly at Coincident Super Victory 4's. At 96db they are on the cusp and really not sure whether my 8 watt 300b's will drive them. Surprised sometimes at how well my amps drive lower efficiency speakers but thinking about upgrading my Druid IV's to these. Any thoughts?
I've been following this thread closely (through all the exciting twist and turns); I really have nothing to add other than I'm on a similar pursuit. The Audio Notes ARE wonderful, although I just demo-ed a pair in my listening room and sadly they weren't as magical as I've heard them elsewhere. I blame it on my listening room. My long wall setup has no corners and the alternative short wall configuration has only one corner plus the speakers can only be 2ft from the wall. I really wanted these speakers to work in my space. I may still jump at picking up a used pair in the future.
As others have mentioned, and which I hope to hear soon, the Audiokinesis Jazz Modules is up there on my A list; as well as the Tannoy Kensington if I can find a pair to try at home (it will require several strong buddies to haul them in). Another idea that hasn't been mentioned is to patiently wait for John DeVore's Orangutans to be released.
Is it a safe assumption that you are looking for different speakers to go along with your tube gear? You aren't looking to replace the amp you have with a SET are you? That makes a big difference I would think on what speakers would work well. I don't think you need super high efficiency speakers necessarily with your amp. I would think 89-90db and a smooth 8 ohm load more or less is all that would be needed for your stuff to sing! Mapman (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers)
My system on audiogon is not updated. I am currently running electrostats with two big VAC amps, one each in mono for each speaker. Yes they sound really really good together. One of the best combinations I've ever found. But I'm changing directions.
However I think high efficiency designs don't necessarily limit you to low powered tubes they just enable that option. Personally and in general I have found that high efficiency designs can sound good regardless of the amplification except in cases of extreme mismatches. I think in many cases it's complicated crossovers that reduce the efficiency of the drivers in those speakers more so than the drivers themselves. The more complicated the crossover is the better the speaker designer has to be to design it correctly, and almost without fail the less efficient the speaker will be. That necessitates high power push pull tube amps, and SS.
I agree solid state can be impressive. Showy, dynamic, etc. But in general tubes are more musical to me, and the added texture and dimension that you get makes even less sparkly highs, or less impactful bass sound more real. In otehr words the trade offs are not worth it, to me.
But just like wine not everyone values the same thing. If you listen to Radiohead most of the time my current set up would be unbeatable. However I listen to a lot of different music and it's mostly acoustic. I'll give up tight bass, and resolution for musicality. 5 years ago I would not have said that. So either my ears have gotten more refined, or they have gotten less refined, or my tatses have changed, I'm not sure which. Another may prefer something else and that's OK. I've owned some systems some would call the pinnacle of SS, and I now own a system that is at the top of the high power push pull tube class. I don't label one approach superior. They each have their strengths and weaknesses.
Legacy Focus. >95db/2.83v. Of course, it's probably not a speaker you'd choose for a SET amp, because it has very low impedance in some key frequency ranges.
All of my favorites were custom-built speakers using old parts, particularly Western Electric drivers and horns (all insanely expensive too). Of the commercial speakers, I like the pair I own (S.A.P. J2001: twin 12" woofers (paper drivers and pleated paper surrounds) in an Onken cabinet, horn midrange, Fostex bullet tweeter).
Most high efficiency speakers have pretty significant tonal aberrations, but, some are reasonably neutral. I like the big Classic Audio Reproduction speakers (I believe the model number is the T-1), and the EdgarHorn system (these are tonally quite good, but they do give up a little of the extreme speed and dynamics compared to some other horn systems). Classic Audio Reproductions also makes a copy of the JBL Hartsfield that sounded pretty good.
As to the Audionote speakers, I like the sound of those speakers too, though I prefer what I own. But, given their compact size, and the ability to use them in the corners or along the back wall, they are VERY practical speakers as well as ones that sound pretty good. The cheaper models are outright bargains, the more expensive ones are exemplars of the law of diminishing return -- your have to pay a LOT more for ever decreasing increments of improvement. Ultimately, they deliver the goods if one can afford them.
A friend has a single driver system with Feastrix drivers. It is currently a work in progress, but, the sound is quite promising. I think the tonal balance and reasonable lack of sibilance in the high end put them way ahead of any Lowther-based systems I've heard.
Is it a safe assumption that you are looking for different speakers to go along with your tube gear? You aren't looking to replace the amp you have with a SET are you? That makes a big difference I would think on what speakers would work well. I don't think you need super high efficiency speakers necessarily with your amp. I would think 89-90db and a smooth 8 ohm load more or less is all that would be needed for your stuff to sing!
I don't think there is a standard unless someone else knows of one. Early in the thread I set a limit of 92db at 6ohms minimum so as not to exclude anything on the cusp. However I think most of us would agree 92db is not really high efficiency. I think I personally would classify 92-96 db as higher, and 97+ as high. However if your reference is horns that may be low.
If somebody can show me a SET based system that can deliver Radiohead's "In Rainbows" with the authority and rock solid iron grip in the low end that I hear currently in my system running the (not so) big Bel Canto Class Ds, in a typcial sized listening room, I will be gladly convinced.
Has anyone mentioned Zu speakers yet? The ones I have heard have sounded good and I believe around 101 db/watt. The Essence was cheap and sounded good on Atamasphere amps.
As Mapman alluded to these can play modern music without strain too amp permitting.
Is there an generally understood start line for the handle of high efficiency in db/w?
I am seeing some speaker systems under "high sensitivity" that are not that sensitive to my understanding of it Say 93/94 db/watt. The highest I have ever seen is 118db/watt.
BTW, there is a good chance that if you are supplementing the low end of a SET based system with a high end powered subwoofer, that sub is using a Class D amplifier, not SET or even tubes in general.
I'm just wondering if there is anybody out there who would recommend building a system around a SET amp to an audiophile who listens to a lot of modern popular music, like metal, synth pop, rap/hip hop, etc.
For other more acoustic forms of music solely, I might go there first, but not for those things.
My point about Class D amps is that this technology IS well suited for these kinds of music, plus it does very well with more acoustic forms as well, though maybe perhaps not to the nth degree as might a top notch SET/FULL range high efficiency speaker setup.
Most high efficiency speakers have fairly tight tolerances in the voice coil gap which makes them very reactive. The back EMF they present to amplifiers that use a lot of feedback is enough to confound the amplifier, as the feedback signal thus contains induced errors.
This is why transistors in general tend to sound shrill on horns and why horns had such a difficult road back into high end audio in the last 20 years- the bad rap of a bad combination.
However if not so much a tube/transistor thing as it is the amount of feedback used by the amplifier. Transistors do tend to use a lot more than tubes, and there are tube amps that don't use any. There are some transistor amps that don't any feedback also and not surprisingly they don't do so bad on horns.
I heard the new field-coil Shindo speaker at THE Show. It seemed to have some potential (no pun intended) but was clearly not playing the bass that you would expect out of a driver and cabinet that large. The material I played has information in the mid-20s, and my suspicion is that the Ongaku amplifiers that were being asked to play the bottom end were simply not up to the task, but its only a suspicion. When hearing any system there is always the tendency to place the blame of shortcomings where your biases lie... regardless, I think that the speaker they showed is really something to watch.
I'd really like to see how it stacks up against the Classic Audio stuff- they cost twice as much as the Classic Audio speakers do.
Mapman, driving a speaker with a class D amp does not mean that you get the liveliness and emotive capability that high-efficiency speakers seem to bring. The point of HE is more than just drivability. And, while in general ICE, Tripath, and other chip amps are VERY good for the money they are still missing some of what SETs do. IME.
Mmike84, having long ago auditioned the AudioNote SEs and having heard them sound wonderful in Peter Qvortrup's home earlier, especially in conveying the emotions of the music, I must say there is a major issue of setting them up properly. At shows, where Peter sets them up, they are always in the room corners and substantially toed in. In Peter's listening room they were not so carefully placed and not in the corners. In my room they were away from the rear wall and side walls, and I could not get anywhere near with the sounds I had previously heard.
At the last THE Show, the Audio Federation room did not sound very good until the last days and Peter's alignment.
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