Help with TT ideas for my first TT

@kro77 each cart has it's own flavor. Most of my carts have been aligned for certain arms, but once you get the hang of it, adjusting to a different arm isn't that difficult. Mine have all been aligned by my Japanese time traveling friend. At the moment, I just use my TechnicsGR but Luxman is ready and my Victor TT101 is on JP's bench getting adjusted. It was just 3 years ago that I started this journey. It was destiny. 

Watched Youtub on how to clean records and I was doing it wrong.  Definitely cleaned up the sound quite a bit.  I found place near me that is a vinyl specfic shop so will see if they have that service. 

@knollbrent  14 carts how do you find time to change them so many?  Changing my carty one time made me think i did not really want to do it any time soon.

Rolling tubes sounds like fun, as is cable rolling.  I have been playing with different cables and cords as of late with DIY stuff and finding it to be much better than the supposed good stuff I had from the store.

This voyage is a fun one @kro77  Glad your enjoying it. In three years, I'm at 3 TT's, two of them vintage. 6 vintage arms. 14 vintage carts. I love this ride! Vintage tubes are nice to add too. 

@kro77 

I wish I could add More to help


Usually the local Hifi shop has a name that cleans records and returns them as a service 

maybe there is a guy you can mail them to and try a super cleaning ?

stylus SHAPE , I thinks makes a difference too?

back in the 70’s , all were spherical/ elliptical that we could afford and MAYBE the sharper stylus goes to uncharted vinyl 

I’m a virgin too, on this stuff

good luck 

jeff

Thanks Jeff.  Wonder if i just need to clean my records...

@kro77 

I just did what you did for vinyl and in your range of $$
but, Not a Pop, but some sibilance.
I am working on sibilance currently 

I bought a few 1970’s vintage vinyl for $2 each 
still, no pops 

I was told pops are dirt? 90% of time ?

Have you had an album, pro cleaned ?

fyi: Project Classic, Hana SL, musical Surroundings Phonomona II+

The one thing I can say on vinyl is how quiet it is !!!      Fully surprised and expected pops 

something in adjustments is not right ?
time to adjust stuff 

good luck 

jeff

Come on who is at their end game with their first purchase.

kro77, 9/25: TT just arrived, sound's great! 10/05: (asking about upgrades:) 👍

@kro77  I sent you a PM today.

Wow what an experience, were there pops? Yes, did I care not really as it was just part of the experience. Could be a great recording, could be a good cart, could be both but there is some thing special going on for me. The segregation. Of Instruments is just fantastic, I can see the snare and symbol of the drummer, the piano is fantastic, as is the breath of the clarinet.

This is what you will find as you go up the analog food chain. Whether it is a better cartridge, table, arm, phono stage, wire, shelf or rack, as they get better the music floats more palpably real on its own in the room. One side effect of this is what you noticed, whatever noise there is, its not only physically lower in volume its psychologically way less noticeable because the music is so damn compelling and real.

Which is what I already said, only now you’re actually noticing it. So worth remembering. This effect is true of everything but a little greater with cartridges. That’s because a lot of the time a cartridge isn’t tracing or tracking so much as bouncing around. A lot of what we think is surface noise is actually this bouncing around called jitter. The Soundsmith, Peter Ledermann, has a great video where he discusses this in detail.

You are right, there’s huge differences between recordings. Not only that, but between pressings. When your system and ears get good enough you may notice there’s differences from one side to another. Pressing a vinyl LP is very much an inexact science. Often times a very old copy with a lot of surface noise will sound far better than a 200g "audiophile" reissue. There’s even a whole business https://better-records.com/ based entirely on the fact no two copies sound the same. They search out and find only the very best quality copies. They are incredibly expensive. They sound incredibly good. What you have noticed so far is the merest tip of the iceberg. Its part of the magic of vinyl. Listen close, you will see.

My system is well into the realm where the music floats, the room disappears, and so maybe that’s why I’m not real OCD about noise and cleaning. But if you are gonna do it, do it right. Get the Walker Enzyme cleaning system. Save a lot of money, skip their overpriced pure water and get the enzyme and cleaner refills. If you get something like a VPI vacuum all the better, just use it only to vacuum off the final rinse. Every record does need to be cleaned, but not often, probably only once.

You seem to be a good listener, so here’s a few things you will enjoy- Nobsound springs (see the recent thread on these amazing footers! https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/springs-under-turntable and fO.q tape (search Amazon).

welcome to the world of higher quality analog sound reproduction

wonderful journey, but slippery slope :)

like many of the finer things in life, it is hard to imagine how good 'good' is till it is experienced first hand

enjoy

So I tried out the clear audio cart with David Brubecks lp.

Wow what an experience, were there pops? Yes, did I care not really as it was just part of the experience.  Could be a great recording, could be a good cart, could be both but there is some thing special going on for me.  The segregation. Of Instruments is just fantastic, I can see the snare and symbol of the drummer, the piano is fantastic, as is the breath of the carinet.

Good tips, my tracking force is within spec according to Mofi, but will see if I am having some issues with the cart as the pops do seem to continue compared to people recording their sessions or their rigs are just more quiet.

The really bad pops that make it through the music are caused by a deep scratch usually caused by miss handling, It is very rare to have a record come with a scratch like this. 
As for stylus life there are several variables that are important. First is quality of the diamond. A pristine clean diamond is critical. Any inclusions will cause accelerated wear. Good diamonds sparkle white when viewed with a USB microscope. Then there is the shape of the diamond. The more diamond that contacts the groove the slower the wear. Older spherical and elliptical diamonds are going to wear faster than modern fine line types. Then there is tracking force. Too low is just as bad if not worse than too high as the cartridge starts bouncing around in the groove pounding into the groove walls. One play like this can ruin a record. Always set up your cartridge with an old record you do not care about. 
Playing dirty records never helps. A stylus is always going to collect some lint on occasion. This is harmless. A ball of gunk stuck to the stylus is an indicator of dirty records and means a change in record hygiene is indicated.  

Many cartridges have a lifespan of at least 1,000 hours. That said, I know some have gone beyond 1,000 without issue. Keeping the needle clean is probably as important as overall lifespan hours. I believe Clearaudio states their lifespan to be 2,000 hours, so it may be hard to go wrong with that purchase if it is otherwise in good shape.

This is my second system so I am comparing to my
main which does this better and why I am looking for it. But to you your point it could be sone thing different so will compare some cds between the two to get a better baseline. Initially there was some minor brightness but that was resolved with the phono cable change.

with respect to used cartridges, why is a reasonable life span of a cart, 1000 hours? More or Less?  Also what are signs of a cart is worn out, or what should I listen for?

You guys have been great as a resource appreciate it.

If you cannot compare in person, then study, read, find possible reviews of the carts you might be considering looking for their strong and weak points, Etc. Ask members here who might have the same cart and/or table.

We all like tweaks. That is pretty normal. If you can afford the Clearaudio, go for it, try it, as you can always put the stock cartridge in storage and use as a back-up.

Lack of soundstage depth may not have to do with the cart itself, there are so many other factors, including how that particular recording was made. Phono pre could also be a factor. Or, have you tried moving or tweaking your speakers? After getting my new vinyl rig setup, I found my old speaker locations (width) and toe-in needed tweaked/changed. In my case it wasn’t about lack of depth, but the table/arm/cart changed the width presentation quite a bit vs the old rig.

I would like better separation. Sound stage is wide but not as deep as I would like.

I acknowledge I like part of the chase, and the tweaks that are part of the audio experience.

I know I need to do more research, but how do people compare without rolling the dice.

@kro77

Is it the biggest contributor to a decks sound? Looking at the ultra versus studio they seem pretty close except for the carts.

No, the cart is not the only difference between the two. The Ultra has a heavier platter, a better bearing, actually uses a sapphire thrust pad, similar to what is used in my SOTA Sapphire, thus it’s name, the Ultra uses a layer of aluminum in its plinth vs only MDF, the Ultra has Cardas wiring in the arm, the arm on the Ultra is also internally dampened and the bearings used are better. So no, there are other differences between the two, not just the carts used. I was strongly considering the Ultra before going the SOTA route with separate arm and cartridge.

Be careful not to ‘chase’ something you think you are missing just by swapping carts. I’m certainly not saying the Cearaudio may not be an Improvement, it may be, it should be. If you can get it for $400, that is a good deal, but how many hours does it have on it? That isn’t a stylus you can replace yourself.

I guess the question should be; what are you trying to improve? What do you think is lacking? And most importantly; what are you trying to make it sound like? Are you comparing it to something else?

Is it the biggest contributor to a decks sound?  Looking at the ultra versus studio they seem pretty close except for the carts.

Have a lead on a Clear Audio Virtuoso v2 for about four bills, which seems to be reasonable and what was in the Marantz.  Would this make a big jump compared to my studio tracker?

@kro77

Can a cart change make really a huge difference?

huge, as in bigger than big :)

Continue to listen and it seems to be coming along.  The phone cable I put together I think is better than my reused rcas.

morphine is sounding really good.  
Can a cart change make really a huge difference? Looking at a clear audio virtuoso v2 for what seems to be a good price.

Rolled my own phono cable, and it seemed to have taken some of the top end brightness off the system.  What fun the tweaking is.

@gmercer  

Did you find it finicky to configure?

The Marantz TT15S1 was the first turntable I ever owned and it served me incredibly well for years. Easy to recommend. 

I like this:

" Nobody ever said they’re taking the bus because they can’t stand the way the car picks up paint chips. Same deal."

So far i have taken to going down stairs each night with a beer and listen to one or two sides to just disconnect.  To your point there is something to just starting and letting the music go versus the instant change of the digital world.  More like a concert experience they begin and then end, you can skip or fast forward.

I am going to look at putting together a phono cable next just for fun, found what looks like a decent solid core silver one with low capacitance.

kro77, With analog there will be noise. Period. There’s things you can do to reduce it, but don’t try and put legs on a snake.

All we really can do is what we really can do: play clean records, with a clean stylus, and hope for the best. A huge amount of noise is down to the pressing, and that is a crap shoot. I’ve paid good money for some that had pieces of paper embedded as if melted into the vinyl. I’ve got one so bad its like a cliche Hollywood stunt record- you know, the one they want to establish the character so they show him lowering the arm on some Mingus and then the foley effects guy dubs over some obnoxious amount of noise so you KNOW its a record. Only this is too bad even for that.

But the key to happiness with analog is learning to enjoy the music. Because with records there might always be some unwanted noise that comes along with the music, but with digital the music is all gone and everything you hear is noise. So take your pick.

That said, my rig is very, very good. One thing you (hopefully) learn, the better the rig the less the noise matters even when its there. This is hard to explain but easy to hear. Whether we are talking about a better cartridge, arm, table, or stand, the better they are the more the music floats palpably present in the room separate from the system and everything else. This is something analog is just naturally so much better at than digital its not even funny.

This is even more true as you move up the analog food chain. The better cartridges some how magically allow you to hear much greater detail and extension, yet at the same time make surface noise much less noticeable. Its actually not magic. What happens is their lower moving mass results in better control, with the stylus bouncing around much less, which is actually where a lot of the noise comes from.

But really, the best advice I can give is don’t sweat it. If you buy a new record and its obnoxiously bad, send it back. Other than that look at it like when you buy anything new. Whatever it is, its all the same: starts out perfectly shiny, winds up dinged up and dirty.

Nobody ever said they’re taking the bus because they can’t stand the way the car picks up paint chips. Same deal.

@kro77

+1 keep at it. I’m just a bit crazy about clean albums. I wash/vacuum many of mine before they go on the table.

would love to have an ultrasonic cleaner, but just don’t have the room/space.

So I was listening to my newly arrived King Crimson 200g LP today.  I barley heard any pops.  Only difference is i swapped the LP to a MOFI anti-static back, and then pulled it back out and cleaned.  

Yes a few pops but nothing like i had with the others. I did not do this with my previous LPs so I am going to try this again.

To you pint there does seem to be a difference to LPs that sound some what different.  The few I have purchased so far are supposedly decent recordings but again they are new pressings.  I have a better Johnny cash recording coming that may be a good comparison.

any reference recordings of what a bad video  setup sounds like on you tube you guys can think of. Again I am more of a newb figuring this out as I go with your guys and gals help.

It’s hard to know how much is abnormal as we cannot listen to what you are hearing. Is there ‘a lot’? What is ‘a lot’? Is it unlistenable?

I have LP’s that are very quiet for vinyl, and others that look just as clean, and not so much. Again, so many variables.

One thing is for sure; is it a problem with your table? Very doubtful. Cartridge? Possibly not as quiet as others, but again, hard to say. If I had to guess, and we are talking about enough clicks and pops to be unlistenable, that is more about your vinyl.

I used to have a ‘starter’ Pro-Ject table I bought when getting back into vinyl, less quality than yours, and some of my LP’s sounded quieter than others, so It wasn’t a consistent problem having to do with the table/arm/cartridge combo. I now have a much nicer SOTA, very good Jelco arm, and Soundsmith cartridge. Is it quieter overall? Yes it is, but overall cost almost three times more than your set-up. So yes, it is possible that if you spend much more you can possibly achieve a quieter experience. But it won’t eliminate it. I do know one thing, I much prefer an LP with a bit of noise than listening to the same album on CD or streaming....all the time.

I grew up with LP’s so perhaps my, and other who did as well, have different expectations. I just don’t know what you are hearing.

That is a bit of a longer explanation than i expected.  I honestly dont mind the hiss between tracks.  As you say the noise in a concert hall before the band, or orchestra comes on is normal and part of the experience.  However hearing a pop mid music seems abnormal, and unlike a CD that is plug and go, so the reason I am asking what is expected here

I recently spoke to an old friend who owns a Hi Fi store in Michigan. His first choice for a starter audiophile deck is the Sota Escape. I am a big time Sota fan and I had no idea this table existed! It is an....interesting looking turntable. It has a great drive system probably the best of the group. The Rega 220 arm is certainly serviceable but probably most important is the company. They (Donna) are very responsive and will bend over backwards for you. 

As for pops and clicks in vinyl, on records that are well cared for the music will mask them except during the quietest passages. Well designed phono stages and styli are most definitely quieter. It is really just the deep scratches that are a real problem. 

When have you been to a concert where there is no background noise?
Coughing, talking, glass clinking, walking etc.  Digital is actually abnormally quiet! Ears are connected to a psycho-active device, your brain. I usually get a lot of flack when I bring this up. Have you ever wondered by women in general do not like loud volumes? Why are they the ones that are always turning it down? Why is this such a male predominant hobby? You married guys, how many times has your wife slapped you in the face waking you up from a nice dream saying in a loud whisper, "What's that!" In nature women are responsible for protecting the children. Many of their behaviors are centered around this instinct. Women are always listening to the environment for any sign of danger. They are uncomfortable with loud music for this reason. The funny thing is that this instinct is not active prior to childbirth, only after. I bring this up as an example. 80% of the SUV buyers are female and if you ask women they will tell you why. They are more comfortable being up higher. Why?
Easier to see danger coming. Men? We want to be powerful. We buy pickup trucks and overpowered sports cars. Why don't we care about volume levels? We do. We want to be as loud and threatening as possible hopefully scaring our enemies away. We also dress up in war paint and pierce our noses and ears with bones so our enemy knows we have no trouble tolerating pain. Does all this affect the way we perceive background noise? 

I guess I expected some, especially between tracks but during playing it was in expected.

I guess why is a bar line of what is to be expected versus above average?

yes... pops and groove noise

cleaners reduce but never eliminate, even the really pricey ones

welcome to vinyl

You can get occasional pops from your vinyl, it is fairly normal; It isn’t a digital format. You may want to invest in a record cleaner, and also a Zerostat anti-static gun. But even then, if you have some old albums, no matter how hard you try, and how much you clean, you may always have *some* surface noise depending on how they were cared for, the stylus the previous owner used, etc. Noise can also happen with LP’s that were not pressed well, even new ones. Pops can be from specs of dust, not only static. So many factors. 

Brush with a carbon fiber brush before each play. Keep your stylus clean. Clean your records. Zap with a Zerostat gun, especially when humidity become lower in the air. Those are good basic practices.

Some higher end cartridges and phono stages can also help in reducing (hiding) noise. It’s a journey, but don’t expect that part of playing vinyl to be as dead quiet as digital formats....all the time.

So I have been listening for a week and the sound is nice and fully from what I can’t tell. However I still get pops in my lps.  I have static cleaned the new records and cleaned the stylus( made things better).

what i am not sure is this normal or is something off with my TT?

thanks all

I got the Boundless brush and MoFi brush to do cleaning so far.  Have not had to deal with much.  I have a Korg ADC for ripping Vinyl but getting alot of pops on that. I think it is more related to the USB cable versus the TT, but trying to diagnose that at the moment.

With respect to VPI upgrades are they that modular?

Adam

I had a project 1expression with Ortofon 2m bronze cart. When looking to upgrade, I tried a Rega P6 with exact cartridge which was only slightly better than my project table. I wanted a dramatic upgrade so I ended up with a VPI Prime Scout. I am so happy I went this way. The second I dropped the needle on this table, I was in heaven. It is upgradeable to their Prime as well which means, this will likely be my last table. I am using the Ortofon 2M Bronze on this table as well.

+1 for Discogs. I buy classical and jazz, but assume rock is the same experience. I have had great luck with quality and prices, and while USPS Media Mail, used for shipping, is cheap it can be pretty slow.  The Discogs blog is also a very good source of information — top picks by genre, Best albums by artist, that sort of thing. Make sure you have an Audioquest carbon fiber brush, or similar, for cleaning. Vinyl needs to be clean, clean, clean. And take care of that cartridge tip while you’re at it.

Good tip

And check out Discogs for good older LP’s. Or even eBay, but that can be more iffy. 
I’ve gotten a lot of great LP’s on Discogs, at a fraction of what new ones cost.

Yes @kro77 now look for reviews regarding albums you want. I bought 10 of my favorite artists albums right out of the gate and the mastering/press was terrible. Blonde, Mellencamp, Springsteen, Amy Whinehouse to name a few. Never made that mistake again. I research a lot before buying any album. 2 1/2 years ago, I had no albums. Now I have over 500 from all genres and just ordered 5 more. I love the ritual with vinyl.

This has been my first venture into vinyl and for sure I can hear stuff differently on some of these recordings.

really fun so far, but I almost that quality of recording has become more important now.

Am very pleased so far.. but I dont have alot of reference points.

Fantastic. Well, your first reference point is the sound vs digital formats.

I put my vinyl ‘to sleep’ for over 35 years. When I dug it/them back out about a year and a half ago, I realized quickly what I was missing/had missed.

Bought a good ‘re-stater table’, and started collecting a whole new batch of vinyl. Now, with my recently acquired SOTA Sapphire/Jelco 850/Soundsmith Zephyr combo, digital is having a much harder time competing with my ears.

Enjoy

I have it setup in my basment system with my workshop.  It sounds really good, i dont know what i was expecting, but I enjoyed the call it ritual of playing the disc, and the sound came out.

Am very pleased so far..  but I dont have alot of reference points.

@kro77 

So? How does it sound? 

I like the wall mounted shelf idea, had not thought of it but makes perfect sense...

Get the thorens td 203 and put an audio technica at f-7 moving coil on the end of it. Then get the origin live gravity one record weight, done! A great set up, and with the money you save on turntable (on sale for $579/ebay/rutherford audio) you will be able to afford the above cartridge and record weight. Run all this into a tavish design tube phono preamp or the pro-ject tube box ds2 and be happy. The td 203 has a better tone arm than any of the others mentioned....place tt on a solid wall mounted turntable shelf for best isolation.

Seems like a lot of good press out recently between what Hifi and stereophile recommendation for the ultra deck. Thanks all