Help with cartridge

Chakster - SPU and Denon isn’t the best performers.

So true @bukanova

I do own SPU Gold although mostly it reproduces tone in the way how it should be. Denon DL103 does the same it’s just more rough.

Did you try Denon DL-107 MM cartridge designed before DL-103 for NHK Broadcast in Japan ? This Denon was discontinued quickly. 

Regarding LOMC: FR-7fz, Miyabi MCA, Klipsch MCZ-10, Victor MC-L10 or maybe Miyajima Kansui, Ikeda 9 III ... i prefer all these over SPU and Denon for some reason. 

Sometimes with others more advanced profiles the same record place sounds flat - more details, more fuzz, more fun but flat tone.

Not sure what you mean by flat tone

Call it musical or you can name it other way. Although we do hear differently so might be that golden analog isn’t so easy and there are no universal rules?

I can only trust what i'm hearing in my system in treated room with full range high efficient drivers and both solid state (first watt) and tube amp (yamamoto a-08s) on my vintage direct drive turntables.  I can't remember any cartridge with conical tip that i could listen for a long time in my system, my first thought was "boring". 

There must be a reason why some people using them, but they got different systems.  

Well I got it back from Andy at the Needle Clinic. I am delighted with the results. I also installed a new belt and bearing oil for the Gyrodec. I forgot how superior vinyl is! Thanks to all your suggestions! If I swap cartridges, I think I will try the Hana. I am certain there might be better cartridges, but I do not care to find the headwaters of the Nile. This modded Denon 103D is beautiful.

Chakster - SPU and Denon isn’t the best performers. I do own SPU Gold although mostly it reproduces tone in the way how it should be. Denon DL103 does the same it’s just more rough.

Sometimes with others more advanced profiles the same record place sounds flat - more details, more fuzz, more fun but flat tone.

Call it musical or you can name it other way. Although we do hear differently so might be that golden analog isn’t so easy and there are no universal rules?

@sdrsdrsdr

@chakster
Do you still have your denon? Did you try it in your ikeda arm. I never thought it was all that great until i tried it in my ikeda arm and it is quite musical. And does have a very appealing sound. In other arms I found it to sound less refined and less smooth. It needs a heavy arm. Fr64s probably a good match too.

No, never again. Same about Ortofon SPU with conical tip (never again).

When i was reading reviews and many comments in the internet about Denon and SPU "musicality" i was hooked, just like many people who read such comments. And my system was quite good too, just different tube amp with those best military NOS Telefunken tubes, same high efficient Zu Audio Druid speakers, very nice phono stage with built-in SUTs (still my favorite in low register, nothing can beat it).

The "problem" is that i had a truly high-end cartridge to compare those old school monsters to. Maybe not everyone who prise Denon and SPU so much have truly high-end cartridge to compare one to another. It was long time ago, my reference cartridge was ZYX Premium 4D SBII with copper coil. Any Ortofon SPU (conical), various Denon (conical) cartridges and many other cartridges were just garbage compared to ZYX Premium 4D SBII. It was so dead and rolled-off on both ends that for me it was simply impossible to accept it. And ZYX is not my favorite cartridge, but at that time it was obvious that my preferences in sound is not what i can get from old school Denon and SPU cartridges designed for broadcast use on radiostations back in the days.

Even on my dedicated tonearm made especially for Denon 103 and Ortofon SPU it was definitely NOT involving at all in comparison to the ZYX Premium 4D SBII on Technics EPA-100 tonearm. Even my Axel’s refurbished Technics EPC-100c mk3 cartridge on the same Schick tonearm (with lighter counterweight) was much better than any Denon and SPU i have tried in the same system on the same turntable.

The one and only SPU that i liked was Royal G mk2 with Replicant-100 tip, i think you have Royan N - right ?

Chakster is a Denon hater, every chance he gets he puts the DL-103 and it’s variants down. If you go on the internet and check around there is a whole lotta love for it from many folks out there. My favorite reports are from the folks that started with a DL-103 and moved up the chain to carts costing several thousand dollars. When the mega cart goes in for service and they put that old DL-103 back in service to tide them over they are very surprised.To a T they all say that the old Denon, while not the last word on detail is so more musical and how they missed that.

@billwojo My criticism for Denon and SPU based on my own experience, not by the other folks comments online. I always trying to explain why i don’t like it, if you will read first paragraph you will understand what i mean, maybe.

I will recall some cartridges that are far superior to Denon 103 and Ortofon SPU. I want to tell you that i had them all at the same time in my system about 5-7 years ago. Now i have much better cartridges, but even those cartridges are superior to brand new SPU and Denon.

-This one is $600 LOMC Audio-Technica ART-2000 Limited Edition

-My Argent MC500HS (High Output MC) with Sapphire cantilever and Hyper Elliptical tip was better than all those Denon and SPU on the same Schick "12 inch toneam.

-My belowed Technics 205c mk4 (on the right) was my favorite MM at that time and with all combination of styli from the Original Lowrider or Axel’s refurbished, and Jico SAS Boron this cartridge was better than all those LOMC.

-Glanz MFG-61 is rare Moving Flux (MM) type, hard to say how much it is, but absolutely amazing cartridge, here is a close up image.  

-This Axel’s refurbished Technics EPC100c mk3 (MM) was great, even Axel replaced the cantilever, he used the Boron cantilever from Nagaoka with Elliptical tip. And even this refurbished sample was much better than burned-in NEW Ortofon SPU and Denon cartridges.

I hope it’s enough to say that i owned many cartridges and all of them easily outperform brand new Denon and SPU LOMC with conical tip.

I would not call those Denon and SPU "the most musical cartridges" like some other people do. I see no reason for that. And for me it was a waste of money and time, but still a good experience to make my own conclusion.

Don;t believe the hype and try a better cartridges, there are plenty of them on the market for very reasonable prices and all of them are better than Denon and SPU with conical diamonds.

In this post i gave you and others an examples of 2 LOMC, 1 HOMC, and 3 MM cartridges. The most expensive is ZYX Premium 4D SBII which is a $4k cartridge, but the rest are much cheaper. All of them are superior to Denon and SPU low compliance monsters.

Over the years i discovered many more cartridges, probably over 30 different vintage cartridges, mostly MM. They are all absolutely fantastic, but reviewers will not tell you about them, too bad.

Regarding the LOMC low compliance cartridges nothing can beat Fidelity-Research FR-7f and this is probably "best buy". PMC-3 is much cheaper and also good. 

Miyabi Standard is another amazing low compliance cartridge, but for higher price.

And speaking about NEW cartridges the Miyajima Kansui is the one to look for, save on expensive Denon upgrades re-tippers are offering and just buy a much better original cartridge - this is my advice!


What i have learned so far:
Do not buy cartridges with Conical diamonds if you’re looking for high fidelity. Do not expect that LOMC is always better than MM or MI. Do not trust re-tippers and never try to refurbish any cartridge, always buy fully original cartridges and if you don’t like it try to find another cartridge from another manufacturer. Do not trust reviewers too much. Don’t believe the hype! Some of the best cartridges are less popular and less known that some overrated and highly promoted modern mediocre cartridges. Trust your own ears! Very simple.

Hello safarisound.  Having your cartridge repaired is certainly OK.  I would suggest that, if you do, to be sure and replace the cantilever and its suspension, not just having the old one re-tipped.  Suspension materials break down over time and the performance can be compromised rather significantly.  If you choose to buy a new cartridge altogether, for $750 (at full retail) I highly recommend the Hana SL.  I bought one last year so I am speaking from my experience.  Among several cartridges I use (mostly more expensive than the Hana SL), I can say from my experience that it is one of the best values in the industry.  There is good reason it is so highly reviewed and rated.  As always, ones preference is relative to ones taste in music reproduction.  And of course, how it matches up and performs with their kit.  The Hana SL is just a great sounding cartridge overall.  It is difficult to fault it.  Some research on reviews of the Hana SL will help you.  Good luck to you on your quest.  Do enjoy the music.

Glad it's working out for you and you have it on a cool deck as well. Actually your whole vinyl setup is pretty nice. Hope you still have all your records as well.
BillWojo

You say you are still playing it with the cantilever askew, and that is fine as long as you align the cantilever and not the cartridge body for best playback. Enjoy the music

Thanks team Audiogon!

Yes, I have a SUT from Wright Audio.

Even with the bent cantilever it still played. Did an A/B with Sinatra’s Girl from Impanea on CD and 1960’s era vinyl. Wow! Going back to analog like the return of the prodigal son.

Chakster is a Denon hater, every chance he gets he puts the DL-103 and it's variants down.
If you go on the internet and check around there is a whole lotta love for it from many folks out there.
My favorite reports are from the folks that started with a DL-103 and moved up the chain to carts costing several thousand dollars. When the mega cart goes in for service and they put that old DL-103 back in service to tide them over they are very surprised.To a T they all say that the old Denon, while not the last word on detail is so more musical and how they missed that.
I've seen a few very expensive systems that the owner could have anything he wanted running DL-103 carts.
The nice thing is that they are cheap and broken ones very cheap. You can pick one up and for far less that an expensive cart would cost have a very fine cart. Plenty of mods from different body's, cantilever material and stylus shapes to play with. And you don't have to spend a big wad of cash to do it all in one shot, makes it budget friendly.
Add a nice SUT (they like a SUT) with your MM phono stage and your set.

BillWojo

@chakster 
Do you still have your denon? Did you try it in your ikeda arm.  I never thought it was all that great until i tried it in my ikeda arm and it is quite musical. And does have a very appealing sound.  In other arms I found it to sound less refined and less smooth. It needs a heavy arm. Fr64s probably a good match too. 

You can sell your broken Denon to people like VAS or some other re-tippers and buy yourself a much better cartridge for anything under $500 and it will be MM or MI, not MC 

If you want a decent MC then prepare to spend over $1k

If you want Denon you can find whatever model in 103 series under $350 in Mint condition or even new, including D, S or whatever index. All those cartridges are dirt cheap. 

Soundsmith may be great but has a very long turn around time. VAS turned around two carts for me in two weeks. He also has a very good reputation as well and is recommended in many threads.

https://vasnyinc.com/repair-service/
Billwojo

BTW
The Denon 103S in their literature is called "special elliptical"
but under inspection has more in common with other more complex
shapes than a typical Elliptical hence its original selling price.

Sorry, Needle Clinic (Andy), not Needle Doctor.

Sad to say it but you’ll have a hard time working with Needle Doctor (Minneapolis MN); the owner closed it last year due to poor health. I’m also pretty certain they didn’t do repairs or upgrades, just re-tip trade-ins. Perhaps you’re thinking of Soundsmith? They do re-tips and upgrades. Their boron/nude contact line diamond combo is $450.

FWIW, you might want to consider investing some extra $$$ and making a real upgrade. The Denon is a nice cartridge, but yours is rather old now and there are vastly superior carts out there brand new at the $900-$1200 price point.

Good luck and let us know what you decide to do.

I am considering having it upgraded by the Needle Doctor, to the sapphire boron with nude micro ridge stylus.

Sapphire or Boron, not all together 
What's the price and why do you think it will be better than another cartridge (not a refurbished one, but a factory made) with similar advanced cantilever and stylus ? 

You have to ask about compliance of the new combo. 

Actually what Needle Doctor offering for Denon can be purchased for many vintage MM cartridges, because modern JICO SAS stylus is sapphire (or ruby) with S.A.S. profile. And a broken cartridges body like Victor Z1 cost almost nothing (fully compatible with JICO SAS stylus).

Denon is LOMC and you need a SUT of high gain MC phono stage, also proper phono cable.  

 

Thank you everyone for the help. It has been determined to be a 103D.

I am considering having it upgraded by the Needle Doctor, to the sapphire boron with nude micro ridge stylus.

I just had my DL-103S serviced by VAS, he installed a new fine elliptical stylus on the original cantilever.
I wonder why the DL-103S was so costly compared to the base line DL-103. I have seen Denon describe the DL-103S as having a "special elliptical" diamond. Could it have been some sort of line contact I wonder? It may have been a way to get around some patent as they were monitored closely back than.
Billwojo

The 103S has a white body with a red line on the front. And sold new for $180 back in 1977!

Could also be a DL-103S as the DL-103D looks the same. You will need to remove the cart and look at the model number on top.
Not sure where you are located but I would check with VAS in Cliffwood, NJ for a price on getting it repaired. I just had two DL-103 carts upgraded by him and it was about 50% of a replacement cartridge cost.
Chakster, why all the hatred for the Denon DL-103 series of carts? They have a huge following and for good reason. I don't know of any other cartridge that dates back to 1962 and is still popular. They have a really good generator and with modest cost can be turned into a cartridge that can satisfy even the most discriminating user. Maybe the warm musical sound is not for you and you like the clinical sound of other cartridges but that is not my or a lot of other users cup of tea.

BillWojo

What is your tonearm ? Do you know effective mass of the arm you're using ? Cartridge and tonearm must be matched, read it. 

In any situation, since the cantilever/stylus  is bent, just buy another cartridge, you can find great MM and MI for about $450 with advanced stylus profile. 

You can fix almost any cartridge, but it will cost more than a new cartridge if your sample is Denon 103 or something cheap like that, in this situation it's better to buy another cartridge (better one).

 

A Denon 103D with a new stylus/cantilever (Shibata, Microridge, Hyperelliptical ...) would be the most cost effective. And a formidable contender against present day cartridges!

That cartridge is a Denon 103D. Low-output mc with an elliptical stylus. I have one in my collection. Excellent sound quality! Alas, no longer in production. Send it out for a new stylus/cantilever.Or buy a new Hana LS (low-output Shibata stylus) mc.