How can I tell what the resistance should be, that device that Tim
posted , will that tell me the correct resistance? If I measure the
other crossover that I haven't changed any electrolytic caps out of
yet.
If I find out the correct resistance can I change the resistors to the correct values.
I
want to keep the jantzen caps but I don't want to alter the intended
resistance, can I accomplish this by swapping resistors with an higher
resistance?
This one cost more, but easy to read: https://www.amazon.com/Peak-166225-Atlas-ESR70/dp/B005NIBEYU/ref=sr_1_1?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&...Yes, you can swapping those resistor to fine tune or simply add a resistor in series to the new caps to make the ESR same as the existing caps. |
By the way, I completely agree with georgehifi's recommendation of pulling these out from the wall also to start. Hopefully leave them out, but if your high end doesn't return as strongly as you like, as you move them back towards a way, the higher frequencies should be what you hear reflected first, reinforcing or enhancing the high end a bit.... good luck in your journey brother, sounds like fun.
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Eric, hififan, Tim, what are your thoughts on the above post. I want to correct this issue so I can retain my Tara labs cables,,, if that's possible |
I'm a hififan, I tried the dials on all settings, with no change.
The caps I replaced were:
the electrolytic, (2- 6.8uF , 2- 8uF, a 47uf and a 10uF)
Also film caps, 3- 3.3uF, 2 -10uF and a 4.7uF.
Two polarized electrolytic 2200uF, but these I replaced with electrolytics.
How can I tell what the resistance should be, that device that Tim posted , will that tell me the correct resistance? If I measure the other crossover that I haven't changed any electrolytic caps out of yet.
If I find out the correct resistance can I change the resistors to the correct values.
I want to keep the jantzen caps but I don't want to alter the intended resistance, can I accomplish this by swapping resistors with an higher resistance? |
Hi Sean, Well since its your thread and you asked, I'll go a bit off subject and answer your question. There are some general rules about cables, that overall hold true... overall, but not entirely... Heavy gauge solid core transfers bass better, lighter stranded cables transfers high end better. Of course a lot of other things affect this.... wire coating (skin effect) purity and type of copper or coating on copper, is there a braid or only multiple individual strands...etc etc etc. Myself, My favorite cables were made of 38 gauge cotton coated litz.... Multiple stands were used in several different braids twist etc until we found the right mix.... final result was about a 9 guage cable... this was a very pleasing, yet detailed cable. In your woofers, I would probably use the heavy belden on the woofer, then make sure that you use one of the nice standed wires on your tweeter.
As far as your speaker cables, I'm sorry, but I have no experience with the Tara Labs, that's why I gave a very basic elementary cable explanation, to help you discover what might make a difference in your system. Next, don't throw in the towel yet, your speakers will continue to go through minor changes for quite awhile. I hope this all helps, Tim
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idahifi,
Consistent with my posts.
Best,
E
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With using just plain old zip cord I get better highs than the temporal continuums. Anyone have any idea why?
What setting on the
dials? on the highest? |
So here's a new development.......
The rolled of tweeter sound has returned...
It only happens when I use the Tara labs temporal continuum speaker cables. I can't believe I didn't catch that before..
I really love these speaker cables, there very good, but using them with this new set up, the highs sound terrible.
With using just plain old zip cord I get better highs than the temporal continuums.
Anyone have any idea why?
Next thing is what cables to replace these with, I don't want zip cord for my main speaker cables, I want something as good as the Tara's but without the weird tweeter issue.
Also , Tim not to beat a dead horse, but my bottom end is a little booty almost muddy, would this also improve with break in or is it a result of the supra cables, do you think?
Thanks for all your input, I can tell the sound is already smoother than before and more lively. Excited to hear it after a few weeks of playing it.
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I did replace two of three of the mid-range caps, as well as three of the five tweeter caps.
Can you let us know which caps you replaced? the value of the caps ( ie: 2.2uF 100V)? |
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Now that I see your schematic, I suspect that you might want to experiment with different caps for C7, C8, and C9.
Since Jantzen are metalized poly, you might find a considerable improvement by going to MIT film & foil caps: RTX series (styrene/tin) for values 3uF and below, or MIT PPFXS (polypropylene/tin) for values 3 < 12 uF. I use these for high end DIY, and I suspect that your M1's are worth it too. |
Hi Tim,
Yes, your analysis is correct. :)
Too low impedance in the second poles _may_ lead to lowering of system impedance above the cut off. I know it’s weird, but I’ve seen it and modelled it a few times. It is a real effect.
Whether that is what the OP is suffering from I am not sure, but the series resistors are a clue. Usually those are in place to prevent a dead short. Fortunately, the proof of this hypothesis is cheap. :) Just replace the caps with their originals and listen. If that proves to be correct, then the OP knows what to fix.
Best,
E
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C1 is in the woofer circuit
C3 & C4 are in the midrange
R3 is in the midrange
R4 is comp on the tweeter
I'd put a signal on these and let them burn in for 100 hours or so, then listen again. If these are anything, but a nice improvement in smoothness and detail from before the mod, then there is a problem. I'd let this play for awhile, then sit down for a serious listen.
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So looking at the schematic, the two caps I would be most suspect of are C3 and C4. Note they have a resistor in series with them, so the overall resistance there must be important. I would suggest you go back to the original caps there, and listen again.
If this fixes your problem, you’ll want to figure out the ESR of each one by substituting larger R3/R4 to make up the differences.
Almost missed it, C1 is the same way. My suspicion is that the resistors in series are going to be really small , like 2-5 Ohms max.
Best,
E
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Thanks for posting the schematic Sean.... I can see a lot more now.... OK, so this is a series crossover, parts burn in takes about twice as long to burn in rather than a paralleled layout.... Yes, I had a similar effect on my speakers and no, I would not change any resistors.
My instincts are that your ears will take some time to adjust even after these break in. The Z is a tad more laid back than most, yet a very detailed pleasing cap. I suspect once they break in fully and you become accustomed to them, you won't want anything else.
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So this morning I was fortunate to speak with a guy from a Mirage distributor who was quite familar with the M1. He said that the ESR should not be an issue. He told me to check all the solder joints. So I did and I realized that the joint feeding the "hi" section of the cross over looked suspect I re soldered it and tried the crossover, and low and behold the upper highs have returned to at least be in acceptable parameters, and comparable to the other crossover. Despite the tweeters sounding more normal, the sound overall still sounds a smeary, or, maybe choppy, I dont know how to explain it, its not quite smooth yet. So will the smoothness come with time? Tim did you find this with yours? Another thing is I am wondering if I should increase the resistance due to the lower esr caps replacing the old Electrolytics. I dont want to get to far off from the traditional M1 Sound, but I am up to increase the detail and smoothness, which is why I replaced the old caps in the first place. Enclosed is a schematic, if it may help. https://ibb.co/hrQ6oF What are your thoughts, leave it or add an additional .5 - 1 ohm resistor. Or if I should just burn it in and if the sound is good, leave it as it is..,,... |
I find that every component has a sonic signature. Film and foil caps are the most neutral, with few exceptions. I find the most neutral of the sanely priced caps to be MIT Multicap styrene film and tin foil.
I haven't used Jantzen caps, so I can't offer specific comment, but I can tell you that every electrolytic you replace has the potential to dramatically change the sound. At first, the sound may appear to be less bright, but that is probably because electrolytics tend to introduce lots and lots of nasty high frequency distortions, which can be confused with brightness. So replacing the electrolytics is simply removing high frequency distortion.
Try some unprocessed female vocals. See which speaker sounds the most like the women in your life. Then live with the sound for a month, and try again. You may be surprised.
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Just looked at your photo... This can be reversed engineered.
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Hi Idahifi, The last time that I used the Jantzen Z caps as replacements, I had the exact same issue. It took about 40 hours before they came to life. If it is truly a problem of ESR differences in caps, that can be measured and compensated for with a resistor. Really the series resistance shouldn't be great enough unless there are alot of caps paralleled maybe, but if resistance is that far off, it could even effect the crossover point. Overall simple cap replacements in a crossover should not be a problem. |
Idahifi, Bring your problem over to DIYhifi, where you will find tons of speaker design geeks in the Multi-Way forum. :) http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/I can help you there more easily with pics, diagrams etc. Best, E |
I'm at that point where I spent a good amount of time and money, and I'm left with a sick feeling of oh crap I don't like this...
Please, if you can take a stab at this , I'd be forever grateful.... |
Admittedly, I am the dude who knows just enough to get himself in trouble. So forgive the stupid questions.... So I haven't pulled apart the other speaker's crossover yet, is there a way I can measure the resistance on the other crossover to see where it's supposed to be, so I can figure out what resistor to add in series of these new caps. Also I'm having a hard time figuring out what new caps are going towards ground and not in series with the driver. Would anyone mind looking to see if you can determine this from the pic https://postimg.org/image/er6t30pon/ |
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Eric thanks for your response,.
So I can still hear the tweeters but I it seems like certain frequencys it sounds laid back and I can almost not even hear it. Is this consistent with what your talking about. I must admit it's a bit over my head, what your saying. I did replace tow of three of the mid-range caps, as well as three of the five tweeter caps.
Would you place the mid caps back in to see if it improves? |
Hi Idahifi,
I think I know what happened. You removed electrolytic shunt caps without taking into account the reduced ESR.
The easiest way to fix this is to replace the original shunt caps. By shunt, I mean caps that go towards ground, and are not in series with the driver.
If you have the right measurement tools, like DATS or REW with the right jig, you can measure the original caps, and compensate for the low ESR with added resistance in series.
It is particularly difficult to find this issue for most because the problems tend to occur where you don't expect it. That is, the treble droop happens because of something you did in the midrange filter circuit.
This problem also occurs with series caps, but changes there tend to be much more subtle, it's hard to go entirely wrong. The shunt caps, having the ability to create a short to ground, are the most troublesome.
Best,
E
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